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Tags donald trump , racism charges , racism issues , semantics , Trump controversies

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Old 27th April 2017, 08:38 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Sure. However the problem I see is not that languages evolves, but that language is misused in a way that makes it very confusing. When someone who likes 15 year olds is called a pedophile, it effectively lumps all of them together, but the causes of their "preferences" and the treatment are different, when they're needed at all.
The number of people who would be concerned about such issues is relatively small (a few people involved in the medical/psych field, perhaps some sociologists), and they should be more than capable of dealing with the differences between common usage of the term "pedophile" and the more clinical definition.

Similarly, lumping "bigotry against Mexicans" in with "racism" is something that would be convenient/useful, and attempting to stick to a more technical definition (subdefine bigotry by subtype - race, religion, nationality) would be useful to only a tiny number of people and inconvenient to the rest of us.
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Old 27th April 2017, 09:05 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
The number of people who would be concerned about such issues is relatively small (a few people involved in the medical/psych field, perhaps some sociologists), and they should be more than capable of dealing with the differences between common usage of the term "pedophile" and the more clinical definition.

Similarly, lumping "bigotry against Mexicans" in with "racism" is something that would be convenient/useful, and attempting to stick to a more technical definition (subdefine bigotry by subtype - race, religion, nationality) would be useful to only a tiny number of people and inconvenient to the rest of us.
There is also the problem that many such racists view refer to all hispanics as mexicans.
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Old 27th April 2017, 09:12 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
Racism is a cudgel
Not always a cudgel. Sometimes it's a bullwhip. Sometimes a lynching rope. Sometime a bucket of tar and some chicken feathers.
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Old 27th April 2017, 09:15 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
There is also the problem that many such racists view refer to all hispanics as mexicans.
As I pointed out above, we know that it's not about where they are from. Trump called the judge Mexican, even though he was born in Gary, Indiana.

It's about ethnicity.
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Old 27th April 2017, 09:27 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by Modified View Post
When and where I was a kid, "Mexican" meant "Hispanic". There was no such word as "Hispanic". If you were from Guatemala, you were "a Mexican". Trump is older than me, and may have experienced similar common use of the word and never gone past that. I still hear some older people use the word that way, in various parts of the country.
This.

I still get asked "what part of Mexico are you from?" even after I tell them I'm from South America.

Last edited by superfreddy; 27th April 2017 at 09:29 AM.
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Old 27th April 2017, 09:29 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by superfreddy View Post
I still get asked "what part of Mexico are you?" even after I tell them I'm from South America.
So, what part are you from?
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Old 27th April 2017, 09:31 AM   #47
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For those of you who feel the need to split hairs, please see Mumbles' post. This thread was inspired by a recent comment from a Trump-defending conservative. "Ha ha, 'Mexican" isn't a race so you can't call it racist!"

If you haven't seen this used over and over and over and over to explain away Trump, then you've been living under a cabbage leaf for the past year. But to return to Mumbles' contention, if the idiots making the idiotic statements perceive Mexicans or Muslims or Puerto Ricans or Anywhereians as a race and direct their racist xenophobia towards them, then for all intents and purposes consider them racists.

Meh? I prefer "bigot". Racism, to me, has always been open to the possibility that it's unintentional even inadvertent behavior. Being a southern white kid (for certain definitions of "white"; being Jewish-Sicilian I wasn't invited to a lot of White Citizens Council meetings), I can see myself failing the alone-in-the-elevator test.

Bigotry, though? That's a thought-out tenet. Bigots have worked at it and have justifications all built into their defense of their positions. But it's funny, ya know. I haven't seen any of the Trump, Bannon, Sessions, Coulter apologists saying, "Hey, you can't call that racism! Trump's an outright bigot, but there's no proof he's racist." No. It's used to dismiss his behavior and his statements as a trump card to counter the use of the term, not to disprove that he has those qualities. The argument stops at "racist" and if they can hand-wave away that accusation then all's right in the world and he's actually a swell guy.
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Old 27th April 2017, 09:34 AM   #48
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This is just another version of a dogwhistle.
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Old 27th April 2017, 09:41 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by Resume View Post
So, what part are you from?
Ecuador.

It is on the Northeastern part of Mexico, about 200 miles from Guadalajara.
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Old 27th April 2017, 10:11 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by superfreddy View Post
Ecuador.

It is on the Northeastern part of Mexico, about 200 miles from Guadalajara.
Yeah. Always wanted to go to Ecuador, Mexico for the mean chimichangas.
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Old 27th April 2017, 10:12 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by Aepervius View Post
"...Because Mexican is not a race" has been told more than once in this forum and others.

I think this is not well reasoned. Firstly "racist" under its modern meaning is actually "xenophobia" which can indeed be the sole xenophobia against Mexican. But nobody or nearly use that word among lay, and most people understand "racist".

Secondly, you can be racist against any non white, but single out Mexican as being the nearest in proximity. The sentence ignore this fully.

As such the various statement of Trump are definitively xenophobic in nature, and almost certainly racist.

What do you think ? Should we encourage the more accurate word at the risk that nobody else use it, or should the modern meaning of racist be taken and simply qualify Trump as racist ?
There is a valid distinction to be made between being prejudiced against a culture and being prejudiced against a perceived biological ethnicity. The two are often so intertwined that it can get confusing (and one could certainly be prejudiced against both), but they still aren't the same thing.

One can be racist against Mexicans, insofar as they perceive "Mexican" as being an ethnicity or as a subset of a larger ethnicity.

A racist, who is not culturally prejudiced would make an exception for a Caucasian who was technically Mexican due to being a Mexican citizen, being born in Mexico, etc. They would not make an exception for a person of Mexican/Mestizo ancestry who was born in the US and was fully integrated into American culture with no traces of Mexican culture, etc. A person who is prejudiced against Mexican culture, but is not racist would be the opposite on those two things.

As for what words to use, practically speaking... I think it's probably best not to overuse the word racist when it doesn't necessarily apply. And "xenophobe" doesn't flow very well. I think words like "bigoted", "prejudiced", "intolerant" and "hateful" work under a lot of circumstances.
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Old 27th April 2017, 10:25 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by Meed View Post
There is a valid distinction to be made between being prejudiced against a culture and being prejudiced against a perceived biological ethnicity. The two are often so intertwined that it can get confusing (and one could certainly be prejudiced against both), but they still aren't the same thing.

One can be racist against Mexicans, insofar as they perceive "Mexican" as being an ethnicity or as a subset of a larger ethnicity.

A racist, who is not culturally prejudiced would make an exception for a Caucasian who was technically Mexican due to being a Mexican citizen, being born in Mexico, etc. They would not make an exception for a person of Mexican/Mestizo ancestry who was born in the US and was fully integrated into American culture with no traces of Mexican culture, etc. A person who is prejudiced against Mexican culture, but is not racist would be the opposite on those two things.

As for what words to use, practically speaking... I think it's probably best not to overuse the word racist when it doesn't necessarily apply. And "xenophobe" doesn't flow very well. I think words like "bigoted", "prejudiced", "intolerant" and "hateful" work under a lot of circumstances.
The term "White Hispanic" coined during the trial of George Zimmerman comes to mind.

I've seen examples of both behaviors described above. I have dark skinned Latino friends, born and raised in the US, who are labeled "Mexican".

And of course, there is the sweet southern lady at a company I worked before who could not comprehend how offensive it was ever time she would mimic my accent.
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Old 27th April 2017, 10:27 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
It's like raping a 15 year old and objecting to the term pedophile. Yes, in a pedantic sort of way you are correct in trying to avoid this stigma, but it does not address the problem.
Of course doing something bad and then objecting to an misapplied term doesn't "address the problem [of the bad thing you did]". To take that to its logical extreme....

*Jack murders an elderly man*
Jill: Jack murdered someone. He's a child molester!
Jack: No, murder isn't child molestation.
Jill: That doesn't address the problem of you murdering someone.
Jack: Duh....

I don't think "it doesn't address the problem" is a valid complaint. So, that leaves us with the argument that it's a pedantic distinction. I won't take a side on that, but I'll just point out that when you use inaccurate language and someone objects to it, you are the one giving them a valid reason to "not address the problem", a valid reason to portray attacks made against them as incorrect and unreasonable, and so on.
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Old 27th April 2017, 10:29 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
In other words, "racist" doesn't mean "racist" anymore. It means a host of things that have nothing to do with what the word actually means.

But yes, mexican isn't a race, it's a nationality. It doesn't prevent people from being bigoted or intolerant. Hey, why not use those words instead?
Hispanic would be closer to a "race." When I say, as someone who would be considered "Hispanic" and "Mexican" (even though I have a lot of "races" mixed in me and I and the 3 generations before me were born in the USA), "I don't want Mexicans coming here illegally," I don't think there is a racist, bigoted or intolerant undertone to that at all. Maybe a xenophobic undertone, but that isn't my intention.
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Old 27th April 2017, 10:51 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Hispanic would be closer to a "race."
And what race would that be? This is akin to saying Arabic is a race.



Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
When I say, as someone who would be considered "Hispanic" and "Mexican" (even though I have a lot of "races" mixed in me and I and the 3 generations before me were born in the USA), "I don't want Mexicans coming here illegally," I don't think there is a racist, bigoted or intolerant undertone to that at all. Maybe a xenophobic undertone, but that isn't my intention.

Why single out Mexicans? Why not Canadians or Irish? Illegal immigration comes from all over the world. Focusing on "Mexican" does carry a racial undertone.
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Old 27th April 2017, 10:53 AM   #56
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Why can’t Mexican be considered a race? It’s not there is any formal agreement on what makes a race or how to separate one from another.
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Old 27th April 2017, 11:00 AM   #57
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I prefer the term "bigoted" because A) it's a more accurate, all-encompassing term and B) it prevents bigots from creating irrelevant distractions when they're being called out on their bigotry.

Which is exactly what happened to inspire this thread.
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Old 27th April 2017, 11:14 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
The number of people who would be concerned about such issues is relatively small (a few people involved in the medical/psych field, perhaps some sociologists), and they should be more than capable of dealing with the differences between common usage of the term "pedophile" and the more clinical definition.

Similarly, lumping "bigotry against Mexicans" in with "racism" is something that would be convenient/useful, and attempting to stick to a more technical definition (subdefine bigotry by subtype - race, religion, nationality) would be useful to only a tiny number of people and inconvenient to the rest of us.
Well actually we can already see how confusing the expansion of "racism" as a word has become, with nonsense like cultural appropriation and the like.
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Old 27th April 2017, 11:23 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by Aepervius View Post
"...Because Mexican is not a race" has been told more than once in this forum and others.

I think this is not well reasoned. Firstly "racist" under its modern meaning is actually "xenophobia" which can indeed be the sole xenophobia against Mexican. But nobody or nearly use that word among lay, and most people understand "racist".

Secondly, you can be racist against any non white, but single out Mexican as being the nearest in proximity. The sentence ignore this fully.

As such the various statement of Trump are definitively xenophobic in nature, and almost certainly racist.

What do you think ? Should we encourage the more accurate word at the risk that nobody else use it, or should the modern meaning of racist be taken and simply qualify Trump as racist ?
Also, some people no doubt use "Mexican" as a generic term for all Hispanics.
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Old 27th April 2017, 11:31 AM   #60
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Federal law recognizes National Origin and Race as two separate types of discrimination.

https://www.eeoc.gov/laws/index.cfm

Mexican is not a race, therefore it is National Origin discrimination.

Question answered
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Old 27th April 2017, 11:53 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Federal law recognizes National Origin and Race as two separate types of discrimination.

https://www.eeoc.gov/laws/index.cfm

Mexican is not a race, therefore it is National Origin discrimination.

Question answered
Not quite right.

When you have people using "Mexican" as a code word for any darker skinned person coming from South of the border, then you have racial discrimination.
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Old 27th April 2017, 11:59 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by superfreddy View Post
Not quite right.

When you have people using "Mexican" as a code word for any darker skinned person coming from South of the border, then you have racial discrimination.
I'll point it out again: it's not even that. Remember how Trump called a judge born in Indiana "Mexican". Because of his name....
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Old 27th April 2017, 12:18 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by superfreddy View Post
Not quite right.

When you have people using "Mexican" as a code word for any darker skinned person coming from South of the border, then you have racial discrimination.
Yes, I was quite right.

You can have both national origin and racial discrimination against an individual (or group), but you can have national origin discrimination without race discrimination (and vice versa of course).
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Old 27th April 2017, 12:20 PM   #64
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I skimmed the thread so sorry if I missed someone pointing this out, but the Mexicans Trump and his followers hate and fear so much aren't the light-skinned upper and middle class ones. It's the poor, brown skinned, black-haired ones with significant native ancestry they worry about. It really is about race, or at least about skin color.
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Old 27th April 2017, 12:32 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Yes, I was quite right.

You can have both national origin and racial discrimination against an individual (or group), but you can have national origin discrimination without race discrimination (and vice versa of course).
Not sure I'm following your point.

Are you saying one cannot be racists against Mexican because Mexican is not a race but a national origin?
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Old 27th April 2017, 01:23 PM   #66
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Fact is ,in popular usage, the terms "Racist" and "Bigot" have become interchangeable.
And in the end,popular usage is what counts,not pendatic discussions about semantics.
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Old 27th April 2017, 01:25 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Fact is ,in popular usage, the terms "Racist" and "Bigot" have become interchangeable.
And in the end,popular usage is what counts,not pendatic discussions about semantics.
That counts? It is the least important opinion in any discussion.
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Old 27th April 2017, 01:28 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Fact is ,in popular usage, the terms "Racist" and "Bigot" have become interchangeable.
And in the end,popular usage is what counts,not pendatic discussions about semantics.
In regards to white people in the USA.*

My first thread in these forums was in regards to how racism is currently defined in the US, specifically its relation to its requirement of power.
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Old 27th April 2017, 01:36 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Fact is ,in popular usage, the terms "Racist" and "Bigot" have become interchangeable.
Not really. Racist is used to refer to racial issues, including ethnicity. You also have misogynists and homophobes.
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Old 27th April 2017, 01:38 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
That counts? It is the least important opinion in any discussion.
When it comes to word meaning, I am sorry but the *folk* that is the majority, define that word. No matter what a few people decrying language purity or whatnot decry.

I have been on the wrong side of the debate for hackers and crackers, so I know what it is like to be in the minority.

In the very end language is used as a communication, and the majority dictate is what define words meaning, no matter what the minority purist thinks.
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Old 27th April 2017, 01:40 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by superfreddy View Post
Not sure I'm following your point.

Are you saying one cannot be racists against Mexican because Mexican is not a race but a national origin?
You can be racist against a Mexican based on his race/color of his skin.

Mexican is not a race, but a National Origin.
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Old 27th April 2017, 01:50 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by Aepervius View Post
When it comes to word meaning, I am sorry but the *folk* that is the majority, define that word. No matter what a few people decrying language purity or whatnot decry.

I have been on the wrong side of the debate for hackers and crackers, so I know what it is like to be in the minority.

In the very end language is used as a communication, and the majority dictate is what define words meaning, no matter what the minority purist thinks.
You just saved me the trouble of replying to Bob.
The term Hacker is a good example. it might have originally meant any computer user who liked to go "under the hood" in using software, (the computer version of a auto owner who liked to mess around with and tweak his engine) , it has come to define,in popular usage,a person who breaks into other people's computers for illegal purposes. That is had a more innocent meaning in the beginning is irrevelent.
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Old 27th April 2017, 01:55 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Fact is ,in popular usage, the terms "Racist" and "Bigot" have become interchangeable.
And in the end,popular usage is what counts,not pendatic discussions about semantics.
I wouldn't say they are completely interchangeable. After all, someone could (in theory) be sexist or anti-gay, which is a form of bigotry, but calling a homo-phobe "racist" would be confusing (whereas calling someone bigoted against mexicans a "racist" is at least in the same ballpark.)
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Old 27th April 2017, 02:00 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Quote:
The number of people who would be concerned about such issues is relatively small (a few people involved in the medical/psych field, perhaps some sociologists), and they should be more than capable of dealing with the differences between common usage of the term "pedophile" and the more clinical definition.

Similarly, lumping "bigotry against Mexicans" in with "racism" is something that would be convenient/useful, and attempting to stick to a more technical definition (subdefine bigotry by subtype - race, religion, nationality) would be useful to only a tiny number of people and inconvenient to the rest of us.
Well actually we can already see how confusing the expansion of "racism" as a word has become, with nonsense like cultural appropriation and the like.
I don't really think there's any confusion here.

The only person who seems to use the argument that "bigotry against Mexicans is not racism because Mexican isn't a race" was a hardcore trump supporter, whom I suspect knew that he was in the wrong but was flinging as much mud as he could. If not the "Mexican is not a race" argument, he would have picked some other irrelevant argument to make.
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Old 27th April 2017, 02:35 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by superfreddy View Post
And what race would that be? This is akin to saying Arabic is a race.
I don't believe in "race." I just said that would be closer to what most people mean by race than "Mexican."

Quote:
Why single out Mexicans? Why not Canadians or Irish? Illegal immigration comes from all over the world. Focusing on "Mexican" does carry a racial undertone.
Because I live on the Mexican border and that is the problem that affects me. But sure, I don't want illegal immigrants from any nation.
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Old 27th April 2017, 02:39 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
I don't really think there's any confusion here.

The only person who seems to use the argument that "bigotry against Mexicans is not racism because Mexican isn't a race" was a hardcore trump supporter, whom I suspect knew that he was in the wrong but was flinging as much mud as he could. If not the "Mexican is not a race" argument, he would have picked some other irrelevant argument to make.
Really, you know the guy that the OP was talking about? That is odd.

Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 prohibits discrimination in employment on the basis of race, color, sex, or ethnic origin;

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Old 27th April 2017, 02:59 PM   #77
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Here is a pretty good article summarizing in layman's terms why anti-discrimination statues include both Race and National Origin and the differences between the two

National Origin Discrimination vs. Race Discrimination: What’s the Difference?

Now if you don't want to sound like a huckleberry, try not to confuse National Origin discrimination and racism.

/full disclosure: I have not vetted the author of that linked article and he might be a HARD CORE TRUMP SUPPORTER so be forewarned.
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Old 27th April 2017, 04:45 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
For those of you who feel the need to split hairs, please see Mumbles' post. This thread was inspired by a recent comment from a Trump-defending conservative. "Ha ha, 'Mexican" isn't a race so you can't call it racist!"

If you haven't seen this used over and over and over and over to explain away Trump, then you've been living under a cabbage leaf for the past year. But to return to Mumbles' contention, if the idiots making the idiotic statements perceive Mexicans or Muslims or Puerto Ricans or Anywhereians as a race and direct their racist xenophobia towards them, then for all intents and purposes consider them racists.

Meh? I prefer "bigot". Racism, to me, has always been open to the possibility that it's unintentional even inadvertent behavior. Being a southern white kid (for certain definitions of "white"; being Jewish-Sicilian I wasn't invited to a lot of White Citizens Council meetings), I can see myself failing the alone-in-the-elevator test.

Bigotry, though? That's a thought-out tenet. Bigots have worked at it and have justifications all built into their defense of their positions. But it's funny, ya know. I haven't seen any of the Trump, Bannon, Sessions, Coulter apologists saying, "Hey, you can't call that racism! Trump's an outright bigot, but there's no proof he's racist." No. It's used to dismiss his behavior and his statements as a trump card to counter the use of the term, not to disprove that he has those qualities. The argument stops at "racist" and if they can hand-wave away that accusation then all's right in the world and he's actually a swell guy.
Lol
Your post is nothing more than division. Republicans don't think in terms of race, never have, this is a monster of the left, which they use to divide people to further their causes. Most are catching on to it, which is another reason your side has lost so badly. But of course the left won't stop, because they have to look at their political enemies as monsters, it's the only way they can justify these divisive tactics. Someday it will spill into the streets, its getting close now, im sure your side will be delighted in that.
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Old 27th April 2017, 04:53 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
I don't really think there's any confusion here.

The only person who seems to use the argument that "bigotry against Mexicans is not racism because Mexican isn't a race" was a hardcore trump supporter, whom I suspect knew that he was in the wrong but was flinging as much mud as he could. If not the "Mexican is not a race" argument, he would have picked some other irrelevant argument to make.
Actually the left calls him a "racist" because of his comments on Mexicans who have come here and raped and murdered. Which is true. Further, this is how the left does it, discussing people from another country somehow makes the person a racist when the left feels they can frame then market it. We can talk about China, no racism there. We can talk about Cuba, no racism there. But when the left is looking for Latino votes, talking about Mexicans brings the racist label.

He isn't a racist for discussing it, he isn't a racist for wanting to stop it. So to recap, I'm still a Trump supporter, I'm in the right, and I'm not flinging mud at all, it's not permitted here.
I'm not out to make another argument, this one has plenty of confusion to figure out.

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Old 27th April 2017, 05:00 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Now if you don't want to sound like a huckleberry, try not to confuse National Origin discrimination and racism.
That was a beautiful "Well, Actually."

They aren't mutually exclusive; they're functionally equivalent. Anyone who expresses one form of bias almost always expresses the other.
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