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Tags donald trump , Joe Arpaio , presidential pardons , racism charges , racism issues , Trump controversies

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Old 26th August 2017, 11:39 AM   #81
dudalb
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
The guy's 85 years old. I've been sick of his shenanigans for years, but there's no real purpose in putting him in prison.
I actually agree, but the problem with the Pardon is it gives a seal of approval to what Apraio did.
And the chances of him serving a day in prison was small. The courts almost certainly would have given him a suspeneded sentence, or, of worst came to worst,Trump could have communted his sentence (NOT the same as a pardon).
But coming even before the sentence ,Trump is basically throwing out the rule of law and giving as green light for Cops to treat minorities like crap.
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Old 26th August 2017, 11:41 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Oh noes, Trump pardoned an 85 year old man.

The fainting couch is soaked with melting snowflakes.
An 85 year-old man who as an elected official has repeatedly violated the Constitutional and human rights of large numbers of people, both American citizens and otherwise. Who, as an elected official, is responsible for conditions in his jails that have resulted in death of innocent human beings. Who, as an elected official, faked an assassination attempt against him to discredit his political opposition.

That is what you are defending a pardon for...
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Old 26th August 2017, 11:59 AM   #83
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Too bad Trump pardoned him, he should have been allowed a jury trial, instead of a bench trial.

Viva la constitution!
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Old 26th August 2017, 12:05 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Let me clarify: I do NOT advocate violence except as a last resort.
Oh, that's a relief. Here I thought maybe this was a call for violence:

Quote:
Edited by Agatha:  Removed breach of rule 1
Doubtless you did not mean he must be assassinated like Malcolm X was. Maybe you are suggesting that he should start wearing those X hats that were all the rage about 20 years ago?
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Old 26th August 2017, 12:18 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
If Arapiao had been sentenced, and then Trump has just commuted his sentence (as opposed to pardon), there would not be this fuss.
The problem with the pardon is that it says that Arapaio did nothing wrong.
Do you approve of what Joe Arpapio did?
Or maybe you think those damn Spics got what was coming to them.....
Does the POTUS have the authority to commute sentences? I know they can pardon (see Ford and Nixon), but commute sentences?
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Old 26th August 2017, 12:20 PM   #86
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If they meant to emulate Malcom X's murderer, then surely they would have mentioned the murderer's name? Malcolm X was an activist.
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Old 26th August 2017, 02:19 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by John Jones View Post
Does the POTUS have the authority to commute sentences? I know they can pardon (see Ford and Nixon), but commute sentences?
Wasn't Scooter Libby's sentence commuted?
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Old 26th August 2017, 02:47 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by KDLarsen View Post
Wasn't Scooter Libby's sentence commuted?
Yes, and the President absolutely has the power to commute sentences. It's part and parcel of the power to pardon.

From article 2, section 2 of the US Constitution:
Quote:
The President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the Militia of the several States, when called into the actual Service of the United States; he may require the Opinion, in writing, of the principal Officer in each of the executive Departments, upon any Subject relating to the Duties of their respective Offices, and he shall have Power to grant Reprieves and Pardons for Offenses against the United States, except in Cases of Impeachment.
"Reprieves" is the operative word in this specific instance.
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Old 26th August 2017, 03:42 PM   #89
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Yeah, he's 85. I'm glad Republicans are able to show some mercy. It's not like we'd ever need to make example out of a lawless lawman. Remember when Clinton pardoned Marc Rich, and then Democrat apologists said that he hadn't been in the country in almost twenty years? I don't. Marc Rich STILL hasn't returned as per the condition of his pardon, so I suppose it has completely faded from public consciousness as an example of corruption.

Anyway, this Trump pardon feels more like a warm up.
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Old 26th August 2017, 05:39 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
I suggest you call yourselves Wolverines.

Holy crap.
Can't have lefties owning guns "just in case", that's a privilege only for the right wing, amiright?
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Old 26th August 2017, 05:51 PM   #91
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I guess this guy will be up for a pardon next year......
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Old 26th August 2017, 05:52 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Too bad Trump pardoned him, he should have been allowed a jury trial, instead of a bench trial.

Viva la constitution!
You do understand that there is no such thing as a Jury Trial for Contempt of Court cases, right?
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Old 26th August 2017, 06:20 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Let me clarify: I do NOT advocate violence except as a last resort. I really hope Trump can be stopped by other means. But, sadly, I am afraid it might come down to a last resort.
The GOP is playing with fire,and hope that somehow they can control the fire to get their damn tax cuts through, I am really afraid they have miscalculated.
Pardoning arpaio was wrong. But not as wrong as suggesting the president should, if necessary, be assassinated to prevent it.
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Old 26th August 2017, 07:11 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by JPK View Post
Good morning. From everything I have read, accepting a presidential pardon, is an admission of guilt. Yet, it doesn't seem that the Sheriff feels he has admitted guilt reading his rather fired comments against the judicial system. He lost both civil and criminal cases. I've also read that by accepting the pardon, he was waived his right to plead the 5th should he be called to testify. I suspect this will turn into a bit of a mess.

Interesting, you can reject a pardon. The case revolved around Wilson pardoning a guy to force a reporter to testify on who his sources were.


And the question of whether accepting a pardon admits guilt is still up in the air, as you can be pardoned for things you aren't even being indicted for, much less convicted.
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Old 26th August 2017, 07:41 PM   #95
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The extraordinary becomes normalised and one day you wake up in a third-world dictatorship.
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Old 26th August 2017, 07:48 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
The extraordinary becomes normalised and one day you wake up in a third-world dictatorship.
Turkey, right?
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Old 26th August 2017, 07:55 PM   #97
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A con law professors thoughts: Is accepting a pardon an admission of guilt?

tl;dr version, No
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Old 26th August 2017, 08:00 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
Turkey, right?
Yes, and watch out America. This pardoning is the action of a man who has is clueless of the liberlist tradtions that the country was founded on and made it great. You have a fool wreaking havoc.

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Old 26th August 2017, 08:07 PM   #99
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People do get what "a pardon" is, right?

Listen I loathe both Trump and Arpaio but people are acting like Trump somehow went outside the system and did something he wasn't supposed to be able to do. Saying a pardon is "subverting the legal system" ignores that pardons are built into the legal system by design.

But legally and Constitutionally... this is exactly why we have pardons, so the President can override legal proceedings. It's built into the system. This wasn't some shady, underhanded "Technicality" he performed it is literally the letter and the spirit (speaking in a purely legal and constitutional sense, not my personal opinion of it which I find odious) the concept.
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Old 26th August 2017, 08:17 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
People do get what "a pardon" is, right?

Listen I loathe both Trump and Arpaio but people are acting like Trump somehow went outside the system and did something he wasn't supposed to be able to do. Saying a pardon is "subverting the legal system" ignores that pardons are built into the legal system by design.

But legally and Constitutionally... this is exactly why we have pardons, so the President can override legal proceedings. It's built into the system. This wasn't some shady, underhanded "Technicality" he performed it is literally the letter and the spirit (speaking in a purely legal and constitutional sense, not my personal opinion of it which I find odious) the concept.
You do get who he has pardoned and why, right?
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Old 26th August 2017, 08:30 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
People do get what "a pardon" is, right?

Listen I loathe both Trump and Arpaio but people are acting like Trump somehow went outside the system and did something he wasn't supposed to be able to do. Saying a pardon is "subverting the legal system" ignores that pardons are built into the legal system by design.

But legally and Constitutionally... this is exactly why we have pardons, so the President can override legal proceedings. It's built into the system. This wasn't some shady, underhanded "Technicality" he performed it is literally the letter and the spirit (speaking in a purely legal and constitutional sense, not my personal opinion of it which I find odious) the concept.
I'm not super versed on this, but I'm taking this as an opportunity to learn.

As I understand it, Arpaio's conviction was rooted not just in arbitrary federal law, but in violations of constitutional rights.

I don't believe the precedents for pardons include too many examples of presidential pardons for constitutional violations.

If the President has the power to overrule the constitution with a pardon, then he has removed any checks on power. Trump has also been investigating preemptive pardons and the ability to pardon himself, and both those questions are not entirely resolved.
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Old 26th August 2017, 08:30 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
You do get who he has pardoned and why, right?
Errr yeah I said so.
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Old 26th August 2017, 08:38 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
I'm not super versed on this, but I'm taking this as an opportunity to learn.

As I understand it, Arpaio's conviction was rooted not just in arbitrary federal law, but in violations of constitutional rights.

I don't believe the precedents for pardons include too many examples of presidential pardons for constitutional violations.

If the President has the power to overrule the constitution with a pardon, then he has removed any checks on power. Trump has also been investigating preemptive pardons and the ability to pardon himself, and both those questions are not entirely resolved.
Perhaps there are no precedents (although how exactly pardoning someone for a "constitutional violation" is any different then pardoning someone for a crime isn't clear to me) but there is nothing in the letter or legal and Constitutional spirit of the concept of the pardon that this is a violation of.

You are correct it is, sort of, an unchecked power. The only check is us electing better Presidents.

I'm not made that people are angry at Trump for doing this, hell I'm angry at Trump for doing this, but a lot of people are acting as if he pulled some dirty, underhanded legalize trick when all he did was... exactly by the books what the office of POTUS allows him to do.

He did something morally wrong, he didn't do anything procedurally wrong.
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Old 26th August 2017, 09:05 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
Perhaps there are no precedents (although how exactly pardoning someone for a "constitutional violation" is any different then pardoning someone for a crime isn't clear to me) but there is nothing in the letter or legal and Constitutional spirit of the concept of the pardon that this is a violation of.

You are correct it is, sort of, an unchecked power. The only check is us electing better Presidents.

I'm not made that people are angry at Trump for doing this, hell I'm angry at Trump for doing this, but a lot of people are acting as if he pulled some dirty, underhanded legalize trick when all he did was... exactly by the books what the office of POTUS allows him to do.

He did something morally wrong, he didn't do anything procedurally wrong.
But if the right to pardon supercedes constitutional rights, then it isn't just an unchecked power to get people out of jail, it's an unchecked power to do literally anything.

Especially when you combine it with preemptive pardon and self pardon.

It would mean that a President and his agents could do literally anything with no legal consequences.

For an extreme example, just to prove a point, what if the President decided to suspend elections? No legal effort to have them go forward would succeed if the President simply pardoned anyone who violated that legal order to and kept elections from happening.

Technically, if there is no sort of law immune to pardons, and it could be done preemptively, he could have anyone who tried to impeach him murdered, pardon the murderers, pardon himself for giving the order, and continue presidenting. He could have any reporters who tried to tell the public thrown in a dungeon and pardon everyone involved with doing so.

Obviously, although he is a massive twat, Trump isn't likely to be planning anything quite like that, but the precedent that a presidential pardon is higher than the bill of rights certainly constitutes a degree of power that hasn't been exercised in pardons before, and wasn't the intent of the framers.
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Old 26th August 2017, 09:11 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
You do understand that there is no such thing as a Jury Trial for Contempt of Court cases, right?
No I do not understand that because there is such a thing.
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Old 26th August 2017, 09:20 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
No I do not understand that because there is such a thing.
Interesting question.

It looks like until 1966, there was no such thing.

Cheff v. Schnackenberg, draws a line at petty offenses and a six month sentence, meaning that there is no jury trial for a contempt charge carrying less than six months.

https://supreme.justia.com/cases/fed.../373/case.html
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Old 26th August 2017, 09:30 PM   #107
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Trump tried to shut down the Arpaio case last spring. Jeff Sessions, of all people, said, "No, you can't do that."
https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...=.6dff2f90c616
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Old 26th August 2017, 09:38 PM   #108
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It would seem that Trump has pardoned Arpiao for the current conviction only, i.e. the contempt of court. So while Trump's action is reprehensible, it does not stop Arpiao being charged and convicted in the near future of other crimes he has committed. I gather there is a laundry list of these, enough to keep him in court for years, and even in jail to prevent him fleeing justice. So Sheriff Joe is not out of the woods yet.
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Old 26th August 2017, 09:39 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
No I do not understand that because there is such a thing.
Contempt of court is considered a prerogative of the court, and "the requirement of a jury does not apply to 'contempts committed in disobedience of any lawful writ, process, order, rule, decree, or command entered in any suit or action brought or prosecuted in the name of, or on behalf of, the United States.'
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Old 26th August 2017, 09:49 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Contempt of court is considered a prerogative of the court, and "the requirement of a jury does not apply to 'contempts committed in disobedience of any lawful writ, process, order, rule, decree, or command entered in any suit or action brought or prosecuted in the name of, or on behalf of, the United States.'
next time you cite an outdated wikipedia article, do us a solid and link it.

cavemonster already cited the controlling authority
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Old 26th August 2017, 09:50 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
....
He did something morally wrong, he didn't do anything procedurally wrong.
That's kinda the point. The president is expected to exercise judgment and restraint. Typically, he pardons people who have already completed their legal process, including serving their sentences, after consultation with the Justice Department. Exceptions, like Nixon, Weinberger etc., are rare and always controversial. In this particular case, Arpaio has a long, documented history of civil rights violations and abuse of prisoners, and he was held in contempt by a federal judge. To pardon him as Trump did sends a message that his friends can do anything they want and get away with it.

What a great message to send to all the people under investigation by Robert Mueller: You cover my back and I'll cover yours.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.b4c0b34d598c

And reports by Arpaio's "customers:"
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...erve-a-pardon/
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.1b14c55742cc
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Old 26th August 2017, 09:51 PM   #112
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785. Jury Trial

The Supreme Court has adopted the standard set forth in 18 U.S.C. § 1(3) regarding the definition of a "petty offense," insofar as it has ruled that imprisonment for no more than six months for contempt is constitutionally permissible without a jury trial. Taylor v. Hayes, 418 U.S. 488 (1974). See also Frank v. United States, 395 U.S. 147 (1969) (sentence of three years probation permissible without jury trial). However, the Court has declined to rule that contempt proceedings, at least as to organizations, resulting in fines of greater than the amount set out in 18 U.S.C. § 1(3) are automatically entitled to jury trials. See Muniz v. Hoffman, 422 U.S. 454, 477 (1975).

A court may, during the course of a trial, impose successive summary contempt orders resulting in an aggregate sentence of imprisonment of more than six months in the absence of a jury trial. Such sentencing is permissible so long as no one contempt order carries a sentence of greater than six months. If, however, the court chooses to impose a single finding of contempt at the termination of the trial, imprisonment for longer than six months is constitutionally impermissible without a jury trial, even if the judge calculates the sentence of imprisonment for each contempt at six months or less. See Codispoti v. Pennsylvania, 418 U.S. 506 (1974).

If the contempt falls within the purview of 18 U.S.C. § 402, contempts constituting crimes, then the contemnor is automatically entitled to a jury trial by reason of 18 U.S.C. § 3691.


There was no requirement for a Jury trial.
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Old 26th August 2017, 09:55 PM   #113
The Big Dog
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
You do understand that there is no such thing as a Jury Trial for Contempt of Court cases, right?
Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
785. Jury Trial

The Supreme Court has adopted the standard set forth in 18 U.S.C. § 1(3) regarding the definition of a "petty offense," insofar as it has ruled that imprisonment for no more than six months for contempt is constitutionally permissible without a jury trial. Taylor v. Hayes, 418 U.S. 488 (1974). See also Frank v. United States, 395 U.S. 147 (1969) (sentence of three years probation permissible without jury trial). However, the Court has declined to rule that contempt proceedings, at least as to organizations, resulting in fines of greater than the amount set out in 18 U.S.C. § 1(3) are automatically entitled to jury trials. See Muniz v. Hoffman, 422 U.S. 454, 477 (1975).

A court may, during the course of a trial, impose successive summary contempt orders resulting in an aggregate sentence of imprisonment of more than six months in the absence of a jury trial. Such sentencing is permissible so long as no one contempt order carries a sentence of greater than six months. If, however, the court chooses to impose a single finding of contempt at the termination of the trial, imprisonment for longer than six months is constitutionally impermissible without a jury trial, even if the judge calculates the sentence of imprisonment for each contempt at six months or less. See Codispoti v. Pennsylvania, 418 U.S. 506 (1974).

If the contempt falls within the purview of 18 U.S.C. § 402, contempts constituting crimes, then the contemnor is automatically entitled to a jury trial by reason of 18 U.S.C. § 3691.


There was no requirement for a Jury trial.
looket them goal posts goooooo!

It is fine
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Old 26th August 2017, 09:58 PM   #114
ChristianProgressive
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Too bad Trump pardoned him, he should have been allowed a jury trial, instead of a bench trial.

Viva la constitution!
The Constitution was never designed to prevent justice.

The man is responsible for gross violations of human rights, suicides, at least and at least one negligent homicide. He has to pay for his crimes!
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Old 26th August 2017, 10:00 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
The Constitution was never designed to prevent justice.

The man is responsible for gross violations of human rights, suicides, at least and at least one negligent homicide. He has to pay for his crimes!
he wasn't convicted of any crimes for any of those alleged acts.
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Old 26th August 2017, 10:09 PM   #116
Bob001
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
he wasn't convicted of any crimes for any of those alleged acts.
He doesn't have to be convicted of crimes to be unfit and abusive. Arizona has paid out more than $50 million in settlements for misconduct by Arpaio and his department.
http://aattp.org/sheriff-joe-arpaios...er-50-million/
http://www.vocativ.com/underworld/cr...fty-price-tag/
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Old 26th August 2017, 10:10 PM   #117
PhantomWolf
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
looket them goal posts goooooo!

It is fine
Because they can happen, doesn't mean that they do happen. I'd be very surprised to see any Judge toss a guaranteed 6 month contempt sentence into a maybe longer one by sending it to Jury.
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I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871)

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Old 26th August 2017, 10:28 PM   #118
ChristianProgressive
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
Pardoning arpaio was wrong. But not as wrong as suggesting the president should, if necessary, be assassinated to prevent it.
By the time the full bill of particulars on Usurper Trump is known, this pardon will look like a misdemeanor jaywalking charge.
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Old 26th August 2017, 10:30 PM   #119
ChristianProgressive
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
he wasn't convicted of any crimes for any of those alleged acts.
He was never charged with most of them. He still can be though, bc the pardon only covers existing criminal acts (in this case Contempt of court) and he should be.
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Old 26th August 2017, 10:58 PM   #120
Bob001
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Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
By the time the full bill of particulars on Usurper Trump is known, this pardon will look like a misdemeanor jaywalking charge.
We will never see the full bill if Trump gives advance pardons to everybody who could give up the goods.
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