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Tags new york times , racism charges , Sarah Jeong , Twitter incidents

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Old 6th August 2018, 01:32 AM   #81
Foolmewunz
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Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
She was mocking them... for five years?



Did you read the link in post 65? 'Cause by your responses here, it really doesn't seem like it.
I've been mocking logger and various other reactionaries for much longer than that. And I've been using much the same tactics that they use, only I'm better at it than they are. If I had a dollar for every time some pearl-clutching conservative snowflake accused me of being a racist, I'd have enough to pay my yearly ISF Dues.

So, yeah. If you choose to disrespect her for her attitudes, go right ahead. I don't have a problem with you exercising your options. I also don't have a problem with her choosing to address issues with barbed snark. (I do have a problem with Twitter as a medium, but t'ain't nothing I can do about that - that ship has sailed.)
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Old 6th August 2018, 06:14 AM   #82
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There's nothing respectable about sinking to the level of racist twitter trolls to make some point. I'm not even clear what point she is trying to make by mimicking racist screeds, and that's assuming I even buy that explanation. The trolls obviously don't care what she thinks and operate in bad-faith 100% of the time, so who exactly are these messages for?

Being a racist twitter troll does nothing but lower the discourse. The expression "Don't wrestle a pig. You both get dirty and the pig enjoys it" comes to mind. Nothing is to be engaged by lowering our standards to that of the twitter racists.

There's not enough liberal white guilt in the world for me to make common cause with someone who is explicitly hostile towards me because I am white and male. There's nothing to be gained, other than "woke points", by spreading anti-white racism. The world doesn't need any more race warriors, we've got too many already.

The NYT is a prestigious journalistic organization. Surely they can do better than Jeong.
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Old 6th August 2018, 06:21 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
There's nothing respectable about sinking to the level of racist twitter trolls to make some point. I'm not even clear what point she is trying to make by mimicking racist screeds, and that's assuming I even buy that explanation. The trolls obviously don't care what she thinks and operate in bad-faith 100% of the time, so who exactly are these messages for?

Being a racist twitter troll does nothing but lower the discourse. The expression "Don't wrestle a pig. You both get dirty and the pig enjoys it" comes to mind. Nothing is to be engaged by lowering our standards to that of the twitter racists.

There's not enough liberal white guilt in the world for me to make common cause with someone who is explicitly hostile towards me because I am white and male. There's nothing to be gained, other than "woke points", by spreading anti-white racism. The world doesn't need any more race warriors, we've got too many already.

The NYT is a prestigious journalistic organization. Surely they can do better than Jeong.
Maybe she's good at her job?

Is racism a problem with her, or is it a select few tweets that she explains with being frustrated with racist attacks on Twitter? If racism or sexism is actually a problem with her - even if it is racism or sexism against the group with all the power in society - it's not a good idea to hire her.
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Old 6th August 2018, 06:34 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
The NYT is a prestigious journalistic organization.
Their prestige is undeserved. And has been for decades.

Quote:
Surely they can do better than Jeong.
Sure, they can. What makes you think they want to?
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Old 6th August 2018, 06:45 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Maybe she's good at her job?

Is racism a problem with her, or is it a select few tweets that she explains with being frustrated with racist attacks on Twitter? If racism or sexism is actually a problem with her - even if it is racism or sexism against the group with all the power in society - it's not a good idea to hire her.


I imagine not bringing embarrassment to herself and her employer are an important aspect of her job. Seems like a writer would be more cautious about what she commits to text in a publicly available venue, especially one who's supposed to have sound enough judgement to work in an editorial role. She failed in that respect.

Being frustrated with Twitter trolls is understandable. Lashing out at them would also be understandable, though likely a fruitless endeavor. Being justifiably mad doesn't give her license to be a racist against all white people. She made public statements that disparage wide populations of people on explicitly racist terms. It's not even a grey area, she says that white people are inferior because of their skin color. #cancelwhitepeople is not ambiguous.

I'm not blind, I know we live in extremely turbulent times. White resentment politics is powerful and plenty of white people are behaving in absolutely reprehensible ways, and not just in the political sphere. That doesn't make racism any more moral or pragmatic. Lashing out at all whites is intellectually lazy and unworthy of a NYT writer.
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Old 6th August 2018, 06:46 AM   #86
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the NYT is still being presented to me in recent documentaries on Dutch TV as some kind of gold standard for journalism.

Now they are hiring edgy racists to generate outrage clicks.

If the death of this particular brand is any indication, mainstream news outlets will be reduced to clickbaity blogs within a couple of years.

Considering that we need at least some trustworthy news channels to give us reasonably unbiased information, I see this as a very bad development for political discourse.
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Old 6th August 2018, 06:59 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
I was thrilled when NYT stood by her and refused to fire her.

This kind of thing wakes up white sleepers like nothing else.

The double standards, the endorsement of anti-white sentiment, etc.

What sort of credibility can these media outlets really expect to have when they call out "racism" on the part of whites and then do something like this?

Best possible outcome from my perspective.
Possibly the best analysis in this thread comes from our token Alt-Right member.

The blatant hypocrisy of hiring and keeping this openly racist edgelord who sent hundreds of racist tweets over several years is white-nationalist public-relations gold.
Especially as it contrasts so sharply with the immediate cancellation of an entire successful show after one possibly racist Tweet by Rosanne.
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Old 6th August 2018, 07:02 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
Possibly the best analysis in this thread comes from our token Alt-Right member.

The blatant hypocrisy of hiring and keeping this openly racist edgelord who sent hundreds of racist tweets over several years is white-nationalist public-relations gold.
Especially as it contrasts so sharply with the immediate cancellation of an entire successful show after one possibly racist Tweet by Rosanne.
"possibly"?
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Old 6th August 2018, 07:08 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
"possibly"?
If you think white supremacy and making fun of white supremacy are equally bad because you suffer from severe white fragility then it makes perfect sense.
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Old 6th August 2018, 09:04 AM   #90
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Is her middle name Cain?
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Old 6th August 2018, 09:22 AM   #91
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While I do think that some of her comments are ironic or edgy or whatever your preferred phrase is... it's indistinguishable from hundreds of others on twitter who make similar remark.

also maybe it's because I don't hang around or look at racists very often (except those that wind up in the public eye) but I pretty much never see the kinds of messages she claims to be satirizing.

If you looked up "white" or "black" on twitter, what proportion of the messages would be hateful on either word? I'm too lazy to do this myself but I'd speculate that the anti-white tweets would be way more prevalent.
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Old 6th August 2018, 09:30 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
If you think white supremacy and making fun of white supremacy are equally bad because you suffer from severe white fragility then it makes perfect sense.
I have seen claims, but no evidence, that Jeong was primarily making fun of white supremacy.

Also, "I was lashing out with hate, but ironically" is just another variation of the classic bully's excuse of "c'mon! we were just playing around!"

Pull the other one, New York Times.
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Old 6th August 2018, 09:34 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I imagine not bringing embarrassment to herself and her employer are an important aspect of her job.
What makes you think the NYT is actually embarrassed by what she said? They should be, but that doesn't mean that they are.
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Old 6th August 2018, 09:48 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I have seen claims, but no evidence, that Jeong was primarily making fun of white supremacy.

Also, "I was lashing out with hate, but ironically" is just another variation of the classic bully's excuse of "c'mon! we were just playing around!"

Pull the other one, New York Times.
Would "locker room talk" be more palatable?
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Old 6th August 2018, 09:52 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Would "locker room talk" be more palatable?
Possibly. Is that her claim? That she was engaged in a bit of private trash talk among friends?
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Old 6th August 2018, 10:02 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Possibly. Is that her claim? That she was engaged in a bit of private trash talk among friends?
No, just trying to figure out how best to frame the language to make it acceptable, even if you find the actual words offensive.

You didn't like irony, so I went for a frame you've accepted in the past.

Personally, mocking is enough of an excuse for me.

Have you ever gotten mad at Cain when he is mocking posters here? Or applecorped when he mocks a post he finds worthy of such? I haven't, because it is obvious what they are doing. Even if I disagree, the form is apparent. I don't really think that Cain wants to kill poor people or that applecorped is concerned with Noah Fence's legacy. The form is clear whether the gag is funny or the message is pertinent.

People who act confused by these things fall into one of two camps for me: 1) too focused on their own message to see the gag or 2) dishonest about seeing the gag but wanting to ignore the fact that it is a gag to drive their own narrative.
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Old 6th August 2018, 10:07 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
No, just trying to figure out how best to frame the language to make it acceptable, even if you find the actual words offensive.
That seems dishonest.
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Old 6th August 2018, 10:11 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
That seems dishonest.
You found their excuse lacking. That implies that there may be a sufficient excuse. I went searching for you.
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Old 6th August 2018, 10:21 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
That seems is dishonest.
FTFY.

It's amazing how situational the ethics of the left are.
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Old 6th August 2018, 10:22 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
You found their excuse lacking. That implies that there may be a sufficient excuse. I went searching for you.
Her excuse reeks of post-hoc justification. None of her jokes seem specifically targeted at trolls, neo-nazi's, or alt-right types in particular. They are just lazy race-baiting barbs at white people.

The internet is awash with mocking of the alt-right and white supremacy trolls. Nobody of any importance cares if you make fun of a neo-nazi. There were plenty of ways for Jeong to criticize these trolls without being a racist.

Just because she is legitimately aggrieved (and being harassed by trolls certainly counts as that) doesn't mean that they get carte blanche to respond however she likes.
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Old 6th August 2018, 10:29 AM   #101
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At the New York Times, some tweets are more equal than others.
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Old 6th August 2018, 10:30 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
You found their excuse lacking. That implies that there may be a sufficient excuse.
No it doesn't. There may not be a sufficient excuse for that behavior in that context. Excuses that depend on manufacturing a different context will always be lacking.

Quote:
I went searching for you.
And it seems dishonest.
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Old 6th August 2018, 10:34 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
FTFY.
Enh. Dr. Keith usually at least pretends to argue in good faith. I don't mind cutting him a little bit of slack here.

Also, I have a thing about people "fixing" my posts when quoting them. I don't expect you to keep track of every member's personal preferences, but if you do recall mine, I'd take it as a kindness if you refrained from doing it.

Quote:
It's amazing how situational the ethics of the left are.
Not to me. Not anymore.
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Old 6th August 2018, 10:48 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
Possibly the best analysis in this thread comes from our token Alt-Right member.
PFFFFWAHAHAHAHA!

The things y'all write sometimes...No, too late for this, we have an openly white supremacist president, that's by far more important than Sarah Jeong.

Quote:
The blatant hypocrisy of hiring and keeping this openly racist edgelord who sent hundreds of racist tweets over several years is white-nationalist public-relations gold.
Especially as it contrasts so sharply with the immediate cancellation of an entire successful show after one possibly racist Tweet by Rosanne.
The Roseanne thing was absurd as well.

But not for any alleged "hypocrisy", which it obviously isn't, since the NYT and the ABC tv network aren't, you know, the same thing. Rather, it's because Roseanne actually is a racist, and a conspiracy theorist, and that's part of why she was hired in the first place - they even noted her tweets in a presentation to advertisers. They knew they were giving a scorpion a ride across the river on their own backs, so the howls of shock when she stung them were ridiculous.

I mean, who could have possibly known that a birther would turn out to be a racist?

Jeong, meanwhile, is clearly just substituting white skin tones and stereotypes for the standard racist arguments we get all the time from bigoted white guys, thus showing their hypocrisy when they shriek and howl about it.

And "for 5 years"? Yep. It can be fun and stress-relieving, actually, much like tweeting "What about white on white crime?" at people who use "black on black crime" to deflect from obvious racist murders. Once you get over the idea that these guys are acting in good faith to begin with, you'll stop bothering with trying to impress them with reasoning, and try something else instead.

NYT has a lot of problems, from their constant "Will this break the poor white people at this small-town diner from Trump? stories, to Maggie Hagerman's (or whatever her name is) blatant spinning. If anything, they could use more people like Jeong.
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Old 6th August 2018, 10:55 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
No it doesn't. There may not be a sufficient excuse for that behavior in that context. Excuses that depend on manufacturing a different context will always be lacking.
Ok.


Quote:
And it seems dishonest.
I'm really confused about what in my post was dishonest.
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Old 6th August 2018, 10:59 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Her excuse reeks of post-hoc justification. None of her jokes seem specifically targeted at trolls, neo-nazi's, or alt-right types in particular. They are just lazy race-baiting barbs at white people.
Lazy race baiting barbs, you say?

Does that not sound exactly like ironic use of neo-nazi and alt-right themes?

Look, I'm not saying they are my thing, but you just described what they are and said they weren't in the same paragraph.
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Old 6th August 2018, 11:02 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
And "for 5 years"? Yep.
Seems an odd complaint for a forum where people have spent so much time on BigFoot and Knoxy.
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Old 6th August 2018, 11:03 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by pharphis View Post
While I do think that some of her comments are ironic or edgy or whatever your preferred phrase is... it's indistinguishable from hundreds of others on twitter who make similar remark.

also maybe it's because I don't hang around or look at racists very often (except those that wind up in the public eye) but I pretty much never see the kinds of messages she claims to be satirizing.
How nice for you!

Turns out that, for many people, they have no need to do so in the first place. Instead, racists come looking for them, so they have no need to go on some amazing epic quest to ferret them out.

And would you like to guess which people white supremacists, neo nazis, and so forth go looking to attack?

Think you could do the same for misogynists? Homophobes?
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Old 6th August 2018, 11:05 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Enh. Dr. Keith usually at least pretends to argue in good faith. I don't mind cutting him a little bit of slack here.
It is all pretend. I'm actually a Trump supporter out to make the liberals look stupid. Rather be Russian Than Democrat!
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Old 6th August 2018, 11:08 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Ok.




I'm really confused about what in my post was dishonest.
The exercise of searching for alternative phrasing on my behalf seems obviously disingenuous to me. Trying to find phrasing that is acceptable because it manufactures alternative contexts seems obviously dishonest.

What relevant, productive goal did you have in mind, with this search of yours?
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Old 6th August 2018, 11:11 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
Possibly the best analysis in this thread comes from our token Alt-Right member.

The blatant hypocrisy of hiring and keeping this openly racist edgelord who sent hundreds of racist tweets over several years is white-nationalist public-relations gold.
Yep. One of the things that a lot of minorities don't understand about white people is that they don't consider themselves white; they think of themselves as just people. And while this is one of the effects of being the dominant race in an area, it does have some beneficial effects to minorities as well.

Think about Trayvon Martin for example. How many whites too his side against Zimmerman? Now think about blacks. How many took Zimmerman's side? It seems obvious to me that white are less reflexively likely to take the white guy's side than blacks are to take the black person's side.

And I am not criticizing blacks for doing so, or saying that whites are somehow better because they are more impartial on this issue. I think blacks, having been exposed to more racism, view these types of incidents with a different lens.

However, if anti-white racism continues to be openly expressed and even celebrated, whites may start to change their lenses as well, which was the point that ST made. And unlike him, I view this as a very bad thing.
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Old 6th August 2018, 11:25 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Yep. One of the things that a lot of minorities don't understand about white people is that they don't consider themselves white; they think of themselves as just people. And while this is one of the effects of being the dominant race in an area, it does have some beneficial effects to minorities as well.

Think about Trayvon Martin for example.
If that's the example, then it's worth pointing out that Zimmerman isn't really white, either.
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Old 6th August 2018, 11:30 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Jeong, meanwhile, is clearly just substituting white skin tones and stereotypes for the standard racist arguments we get all the time from bigoted white guys, thus showing their hypocrisy when they shriek and howl about it.
That would make sense if all white people were racists. But if they aren't all racists, then that doesn't suffice as an excuse. Just like it doesn't suffice to point at Farakhan's blatant racism to justify saying racist things about blacks.
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Old 6th August 2018, 11:32 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
If that's the example, then it's worth pointing out that Zimmerman isn't really white, either.
Of course he is. He's "white Hispanic". I have it on good authority.
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Old 6th August 2018, 11:35 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Also, I have a thing about people "fixing" my posts when quoting them. I don't expect you to keep track of every member's personal preferences, but if you do recall mine, I'd take it as a kindness if you refrained from doing it.
I can't promise I'll remember, but noted for the moment anyways.

Quote:
Not to me. Not anymore.
Note that I didn't say surprising.
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Old 6th August 2018, 12:35 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The exercise of searching for alternative phrasing on my behalf seems obviously disingenuous to me. Trying to find phrasing that is acceptable because it manufactures alternative contexts seems obviously dishonest.

What relevant, productive goal did you have in mind, with this search of yours?
You seemed to be very focused on the words, and not the context. I was trying to get you to think about contexts where you would have seen bad words and dismissed them.

In some contexts people can say reprehensible things but people shrug and move on. Based on the context the listener feels certain that the thing said is not a direct indication of how that person feels or acts. The words are not taken at face value as a true expression.

I feel that way about these twits. I think the context makes it clear that the writer is not actually racist. Just sick of the crap in her feed.

I feel that way about ironic posts on this forum, as outlined in the portions of my prior post you did not reply to.

If my memory serves, some people feel that way about locker room talk by fabulists politicians.

What seems obvious to some is a stretch too far to others. It depends on the context, and I was trying to give you some contextual clues of how absolutely reprehensible words can be acceptable in the right context.

In no way was I being dishonest. Just presenting different situations where words are not being taken at face value. What-ifs, if you will.
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Old 6th August 2018, 12:43 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
That would make sense if all white people were racists. But if they aren't all racists, then that doesn't suffice as an excuse. Just like it doesn't suffice to point at Farakhan's blatant racism to justify saying racist things about blacks.
You sound like a gentile arguing that a joke an insult about a cheap gentile isn't ironic because not all gentiles are anti-semetic.
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Old 6th August 2018, 01:02 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
You sound like a gentile arguing that a joke about a cheap gentile isn't ironic because not all gentiles are anti-semetic.
These weren't jokes. They were just insults. Insults can be funny, but that doesn't make them jokes. And whether or not they were "ironic" isn't really the point either, but they certainly didn't seem intended that way.
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Old 6th August 2018, 01:19 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
These weren't jokes. They were just insults. Insults can be funny, but that doesn't make them jokes. And whether or not they were "ironic" isn't really the point either, but they certainly didn't seem intended that way.
Noted and fixed to read:

You sound like a gentile arguing that an insult about a cheap gentile isn't ironic because not all gentiles are anti-semetic.

That they don't seem that way to you is not really the point is it? You are not likely the target audience.
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Old 6th August 2018, 01:30 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Noted and fixed to read:

You sound like a gentile arguing that an insult about a cheap gentile isn't ironic because not all gentiles are anti-semetic.

That they don't seem that way to you is not really the point is it? You are not likely the target audience.
Once again, there was nothing ironic about the insults here. And "target audience" isn't an excuse for racism.
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