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9th August 2018, 01:03 AM | #201 |
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So, you're saying that a long string of racist Tweets aimed at no one in particular or in response to anything in particular, was actually super clever anti-racism?
If you like tongue-in-cheek ironic anti-racism campaigners, you should check out David Duke. That guy is super committed. |
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9th August 2018, 02:19 AM | #202 |
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They were directed to a group of internet trolls. This crap is tiresome.
David Duke is a loathsome bigot. Have you signed on with Donnie Johnny and the "bad people on both sides" argument? Picking on poor downtrodden white people is the same as running down protesters in your nazi-mobile? |
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9th August 2018, 03:51 AM | #203 |
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No really, they all were not directed at internet trolls. This crap is getting tiresome.
Not sure why so many are coming to her defense and can't admit that she was wrong. Just as someone said in another thread that you can't get a non-racist to suddenly use the N-word, you can't just get her to suddenly bash all white people. Very good article here: https://slate.com/news-and-politics/...fend-them.html |
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9th August 2018, 04:25 AM | #204 |
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There is some grade A excuse-making going on here even better than the Joy Reid excuse-making
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9th August 2018, 04:55 AM | #205 |
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9th August 2018, 06:43 AM | #206 |
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And Michael Richards directed his racism at a heckler. That isn't a valid excuse.
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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9th August 2018, 06:44 AM | #207 |
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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9th August 2018, 06:55 AM | #208 |
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Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list. "If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1 |
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9th August 2018, 06:57 AM | #209 |
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9th August 2018, 06:59 AM | #210 |
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There's the problem. Saying something unacceptable ironically is a staple of comedy, but there needs to be an understanding between you and your audience that of course you don't really mean it. Anyone listening who isn't primed to give you the benefit of the doubt will be genuinely offended and that's hardly their fault.
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9th August 2018, 07:10 AM | #211 |
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Eh...sorry, but the white conservative (or really, Republican and white suprmacist) side in this is "we support concentration camps for Hispanic children and applaud state murder of black people". And I mean that in terms of actual policy proposals at state and federal levels, not just jokes on Twitter. I'm entirely unconcerned with salvaging them, and couldn't even if I were inclined to do so. This isn't even "the boy who cries wolf", since we've never even seen a wolf in this country, while the guy who cries "wolf" all the time is the same guy that keeps stealing and eating the damn sheep.
And sure, if Louis Farrakhan or Tariq Nasheed were running for president, I'd strenuously object. Those black supremacist grifters are a good "other side" for the current president - albeit both seem to be better public speakers. But a conservative that makes fun of them? Sure, I'm game. What I won't do, as an example, is to pretend that "#cancelwhitepeople" is a call for genocide. That's simply not what "cancelXXXXX" means on twitter in the first place, so it doesn't even matter whether or not you take it at it's surface meaning. (I also won't pretend that either one of them are at all equal to Jeff Sessions actively refusing to enforce basic civil rights protections. Again, I can't salvage that mess of a party.) Which is why I still think of how she (and Vox) went after Wu is the stronger case. Wu is in China - hyping her up as some massive proponent of any sort of social change is a good way to help her into prison. That's a pretty serious concern, and a good reason for her to deeply worry about what they would say about her - something that Vox should have definitely considered when interviewing her. Unlike the caterwauling of various bigots and ethnonationalists, that shows an actual lack of regard for someone that could harm them. |
9th August 2018, 07:15 AM | #212 |
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What does that have to do with anything?
Even if there's 100,000,000,000 billion trillion gazillion racists on one "side" and 1 on the the other are the people attacked and insulted by that 1 racist supposed to just not notice or not care or not bring it up because of reasons? |
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9th August 2018, 07:23 AM | #213 |
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I'm directly replying to Eddie Dane, and then (in two further paragraphs that you deleted) continuing to discuss other examples of what are supposed to be horrible things said by Jeong, that actually weren't that bad at all, as well as an actual journalistic issue that she should address.
But that was all clearly in the post you replied to, including the sections that are automatically quoted by the board's software and which you thus most likely deleted willingly. |
9th August 2018, 07:32 AM | #214 |
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9th August 2018, 07:36 AM | #215 |
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But that's my point. When a white person says something racist they don't get the benefit of people digging through the context and backstory to find out if maybe it wasn't racist.
The standard can't be "Racism out of context" for one side and "Racism only in context" for another. We're not arguing racism as a concept, we're arguing its use as a dog whistle for the outrage machine. |
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9th August 2018, 08:09 AM | #216 |
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For a prime example of this, look at what happened to Justine Sacco. One tweet, and she was fired. Zero margin for error, no consideration for humor or irony or context.
There really is a double standard for these things. And in the long run, that double standard (and the denial of its existence) will exacerbate racism, not help combat it. |
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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9th August 2018, 08:27 AM | #217 |
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BTW many missed it but she landed on her feet.
Justine Sacco, the PR exec who was fired from IAC for her tweets, has landed back at IAC’s Match Group |
9th August 2018, 04:20 PM | #218 |
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I'm gonna apologize for my last post, because the wording is horrid. How could anyone understand that mash? This week has aged me more than I thought. That said.
No they absolutely do to a truly mind-bending degree. Look at some of the recent 'while black' threads for some examples that are actually pretty funny. That other people also work hard to twist everything to be definitely racist doesn't change that. Different groups react differently to different situations. More below. And that specific case is one where there was a lot of people on the left, myself included, saying it wasn't right to be really upset with her for this one. That some wouldn't change their view based on the revelation of the context doesn't mean that everyone or even most people didn't. It's easy to focus on the people who argue that every accusation of racism is true, or the group that say almost every accusation of racism is false, but the much larger group will actually change their conclusions based on the evidence. Of course people will disagree on specifics cases inside that because some are actually hard to tell (again, haven't looked into this one enough). Mumbles and I have disagreed on some specific cases, yet I fully expect that two of the three posters quoted here would put us in the same 'everything is racist' group. But speaking of double standards, if the context of mocking racists excuses Sacco, it's possible it excuses whatever her name is here. |
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9th August 2018, 07:28 PM | #219 |
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To add further - the major discussion was under "#hasjustinelandedyet", and was mostly full of mockery rather than anger. The simple reason was that Sacco lost her job almost immediately, but since she was on a plane to Africa she was likely one of the last people to actually hear this news. Twitter *will* joke about a case like that, even now.
Now, was there some genuine rage, hatred, and so forth? Yes, of course. Was there also a lot of people saying "Um, you're the head of PR, saying this?" Well, naturally, yes. Were there a lot of gifs of people running away, people falling down looking at their phones, and the like? Yes. |
10th August 2018, 11:30 AM | #220 |
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10th August 2018, 11:33 AM | #221 |
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Tryhard contrarians on the internet don't count.
You could say water is wet on this board and 4 people, minimum, are going to argue with you about as if that is the hill they are gonna die defending. |
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10th August 2018, 01:53 PM | #222 |
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Yeah, an incredible double standard. So many people, on here and elsewhere, make the accusation of racism first and worry about the details later if at all. In this case, they're suddenly using words like "nuance" and "context" and giving the benefit of the doubt. And it's all based on identity politics. Play around with the races and genders in this scenario and everything would change.
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10th August 2018, 02:12 PM | #223 |
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10th August 2018, 02:18 PM | #224 |
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10th August 2018, 02:24 PM | #225 |
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10th August 2018, 02:28 PM | #226 |
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OK, I'll see if I can play around with the races and genders and show that everything should change:
Can you understand why a woman can call her friend a b-word but a male friend of theirs probably can't? Can you understand why a black guy can call a white guy the n-word and face less backlash than the white guy saying the same thing back? |
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Suffering is not a punishment not a fruit of sin, it is a gift of God. He allows us to share in His suffering and to make up for the sins of the world. -Mother Teresa If I had a pet panda I would name it Snowflake. |
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10th August 2018, 02:37 PM | #227 |
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the opposite can apply too. It is all about intent. Sarah Jeong comes across as a sociopathic calculatingly self interested racist towards "white" skined people and she has demonstrated she is more than happy to be deliberately antagonistic and abuse her power, influence and position regarding other asian cultural and socio economic groups.
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10th August 2018, 02:40 PM | #228 |
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Why would you compare immutable characteristics like race and gender* to a boss/subordinate relationship? Are men the managers and women the staff members?
This strikes me as that whole "punching up versus punching down" bit. Funny thing, but I think maybe both sides should grow up and stop punching in any direction. * Well, gender used to be immutable. |
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10th August 2018, 02:43 PM | #229 |
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10th August 2018, 02:45 PM | #230 |
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10th August 2018, 05:19 PM | #231 |
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10th August 2018, 05:45 PM | #232 |
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I've been thinking about this some more.
Does this defense of Jeong have anything to do with fear I wonder? Afraid that if she isn't believed — that she has been the subject of extreme or even lots of casual racism and she is simply trying to call attention to it and how it's so bad in society — then perhaps you who have also been subject to it will not be believed? Is this a thing where you may feel that any visible "minority" must at all costs be protected and believed so that you can also feel believed? See, I can understand that, if it's true. I myself have been abused by institutions that were supposedly there to protect me but instead betrayed me and (in one case, literally sent me out to die on the streets) and I don't talk about it because it just sounds crazy, like I made it up. I don't go around believing *every* story that I hear that's similar, though. Because I know that sometimes people make it up to garner sympathy or whatever. If this is what's happening with Jeong, I must say that's not a good idea; all it will do is backfire. People are going to ask themselves, "if this one person is lying or exaggerating then why should I believe anyone who is saying the same thing or something similar?" Also, Ms. Jeong is presumably intelligent, graduated a top university and has been given an editor's job slash writing job at a top publication. Does it not occur to anyone that she couldn't have possibly come up with any other phrase besides "white people" this and "white people" that and "white liberals" here and "white women" there in order to call attention to the idea of racism in modern society? She's not a comedian. She's not stupid nor unlearnèd. She's been paid rather well to put words on paper, to communicate ideas, concepts, thoughts. According to some in the racist manager thread, the consensus is that *one* use of the n-word signifies she's a racist, yet hundreds of racist tweets is only reverse-trolling when it's a Korean woman? Again, what is being gained by excusing this woman of being a racist? What cause is being harmed, what movement is being harmed? What's the problem with just saying, "yeah, racism is bad no matter who does it?" Because that is all I am doing. If racism is bad, so my thinking goes, then no one is excused for being racist. |
11th August 2018, 08:18 AM | #233 |
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Nope - there's been no need for anyone to do so in that case.
Don't get too impressed with yourself - Bomani Jones effectively demonstrated the remarkable double standard a couple of years ago. The only real change so far is the addition of bad faith actors from 4chan to yank things out of all context. |
11th August 2018, 03:45 PM | #234 |
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Perhaps there isn't middle ground, if that's what you see. I'm not interested in considering certain groups to be credible at all, though. That's not to say that Ms. Jeong isn't racist, but that some groups have a known history of smearing people with quarter truths and lies and are completely unworthy of trust. What I've seen seems to primarily be references to the work and arguments of such people and more generic attempts to shift what's in question to generic "liberals are the hypocritical people here" and the claim that Ms. Jeong is automatically being given the benefit of the doubt here because she's part of a minority with the nigh inevitable rant about how white people aren't given the same benefit of the doubt attached (which itself is worthy of separate discussion, but is quite irrelevant to the primary issues in question in this specific discussion). None of those lines of argument convinces me, at all.
Of course not. And the automatic benefit of the doubt wasn't given, let alone given on those grounds. Personally, I would give a white person in a similar situation similar leeway, for exactly the same reasons that I'm willing to give Ms. Jeong leeway. If it's been demonstrated that it was done in parody, though, and that the people stirring up a fuss have dishonestly removed context (which, to be clear, I started with this information in this case, but given me, I would have taken a similar stance upon learning such anyways), my stance would be rather similar, though. Like in this case with Ms. Jeong, I would not condemn them based on information of that quality, or be simply be browbeat into the assumption that they are. Of course, personally, I simply don't care if a person's racist, sexist, bigoted, or whatever else, generally speaking, so long as it doesn't come into play in a harmful way to others. My lack of caring means that I have little reason to check further into whether just about anyone is any of those things unless there's reason to believe that it would impact people negatively, and if I'm in some relevant position of responsibility. I don't see much cause to believe that either of those is the case when it comes to me and Ms. Jeong's employment related to tech writing at the NYT, though, so I'm simply not going to dig more deeply into the matter. She may well be a racist, but I will separately still not approve of demonstrable parody being used as a basis to claim racism, which it certainly was, in her case. |
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11th August 2018, 03:56 PM | #235 |
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I'm in agreement here.
I'm not going to argue that quite a few people don't employ double standards, of course, but... it's a bit annoying when holding a single standard means accusations of double standards based on the words or actions of others... as if somehow, the left is a hive mind. |
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So sayeth the crazy little dragon. |
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11th August 2018, 08:46 PM | #236 |
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Oh, of course. Evidence is not required. Silly me. As long as she superficially appears to be a "minority" then it's carte blanche.
#notallracists
Quote:
I don't particularly care anymore that you and others wish to continue to be a part of the problem that's your choice. I'll continue to call out racists no matter their skin color and stand back while you all carry the double-standard banner while marching this country to essentially third-world status. I've got other fights to get involved in.
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12th August 2018, 01:11 PM | #237 |
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13th August 2018, 09:51 AM | #238 |
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Well, perhaps you ought to Google "4Chan Sarah Jeong" and get an idea of what many of you don't seem to grok. You're siding with the reprehensible underbelly of society. And when you read through some of that sewage, perhaps recognize that that is the sort of stuff she was seeing during GamerGate, and likely responding to.
Here's their charming input about a fake tweet. [NSFW] |
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13th August 2018, 10:36 AM | #239 |
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As importantly, since Andrew Breitbart is long dead, the lack of video leaves clowns like James O'Keefe out, and 4chan boards like /pol/ have been doing this for literally years with twitter (yet again, see Gamergate, Operation Lollipop, the rages over women in Star Wars/Ghostbusters, the recent rage over She-Ra of all things, and really this list can go much longer than any of this, they've been at it for years), they're just the immediate first guess when you see a bunch of individual, out of context tweets being used to "prove" that some random person's a pedophile, or some nonwhite person is "an antiwhite racist".
I had this one figured out as soon as I saw two tweets - the first was the one imitating Andrew Sullivan (it's a clear parody of scientific racism) and the second claiming that is was her plan to drive down the white birth rate (how would a single person manage to even do that?). It's the online equivalent of that old guy that claimed that Black Lives Matter burned his flag and spray-painted "Blacks Rule" on his driveway. And again, Norseman, the problem isn't that there's "no evidence", it's that the evidence is against your idea. |
13th August 2018, 11:32 AM | #240 |
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See, I read her tweets. I went to the source which was her. I then formulated my opinion based on the sheer amount of blatantly racist posts and there didn't seem to me to be many that were done tongue-in-cheek (though to be fair, a few were) and none struck me as particularly funny, though that's in the eye of the beholder; I didn't see any tweet in which she was responding to any racist or other negative tweet that she received.
Also, no one has produced any evidence that my impressions are wrong, such as producing the tweets which were attacking her directly ON TWITTER and her mocking response, for example. All I've seen is your and other's downplaying, dodging, and frankly I think y'all are simply ignoring the evidence that's already been shown here that makes her a racist because reasons. She even admitted making racist tweets but she was only referring to the three that I guess were the worst(?) and the three that she apologized for reverse trolling. She didn't put forth any evidence of the original racist tweets but I see now that she's smart enough to capitalize on her status as victim and knowing that the liberals will swallow pretty much anything when it comes to that. At any rate, I really don't care that my opinion happens to be similar to a bunch of racist trolls on 4chan. They will be racist trolls feeding the outrage machine regardless of my stance on the subject. If you or others wish to therefore compartmentalize me with them in order to dismiss both, that's fine. More power to you I guess. Just understand that the difference is the critical one: I am basing my opinion on evidence and am certainly willing to change my mind if presented with evidence that justifies the change. I didn't know about this chick at all until this article. I didn't make a decision on if she was a victim or if she was telling the truth or whatever until I actually saw the tweets she made. You yourself have dismissed evidence and reason in this thread by jocularly saying "I know anecdotes don't count but here's an anecdote which counts..." and that's fine. It's just simply taken for granted that she's Korean in America, therefore she's been a victim of racism so therefore anything racist she may say is excused. I don't believe it. In this case. |
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