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8th November 2018, 05:45 PM | #81 |
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Ok...I wanted to hold my comments until I’d done my homework. I’ve done an exhaustive review of Mr. King’s publicly available comments over the years. I’ve looked especially for instances where perhaps he said something off the cuff and then later clarified his meaning. It would not be unusual for a politician’s comments to be exaggerated or their intent to be twisted.
That ************ racist. Like, straight up. I’ve never been to Iowa and as a brown-skinned man, I hope I never have to. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
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8th November 2018, 06:31 PM | #82 |
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I have been to Iowa, and I don't think it's fair to judge a whole state by a few jerks.
It's liking judging Texas by the actions of a few of the more obnoxious bigots who live there. And I think most states have a elecotial district which appears to be inhabited by morons. |
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8th November 2018, 07:07 PM | #83 |
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8th November 2018, 07:20 PM | #84 |
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8th November 2018, 07:59 PM | #85 |
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I have an East Indian friend (US citizen) who lives in Sugarland, outside Houston...a petrochemical engineer. He said he was afraid to put out his 'Obama' lawn sign in the 2008 and 2012 elections. It's that bad.
About the only place in TX I'd be comfortable living in is Austin, where my niece lives. It's a 'blue' enclave in the state. But I'd have to put up with TX weather, so even that's out. Retirement coming up in a few years and I'm going to stay right here in Oregon even though my retirement dollars would go farther in a lot of other places. I couldn't bear living someplace surrounded by Trumpers. I'd be a fish out of water. |
8th November 2018, 11:43 PM | #86 |
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9th November 2018, 01:03 AM | #87 |
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“Don’t blame me. I voted for Kodos.” |
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9th November 2018, 01:12 AM | #88 |
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He's both a Trump supporter and a bigot (not that there's a real difference). That makes him less than human. No person should lower themselves to engage with something that is less than them. His kind aren't people. You attack them, humiliate them, dehumanize them but you don't engage with them. I don't talk to the dog **** on the heel of my shoe, why would I talk with him?
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9th November 2018, 04:07 AM | #89 |
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9th November 2018, 04:19 AM | #90 |
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There never was a White Race - there are only accidents of history that cause some genetic pools to stay moderately stable for a time.
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9th November 2018, 06:03 AM | #91 |
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You may have overlooked - "Decent human being who recognizes past mistakes and works to correct them" in favour of being afraid.
I get it, white nationalists are afraid that of the bankruptcy of their beliefs and that they will be the ones that will be the example of what not to do. Historically nationalist groups of any background fail when confronted by outside forces prepared to adapt, or just a refusal to accept that they aren't the be all and end all: Nazi Germany - Fail (and failed hard); Fascist Italy - Fail; Imperial Russia - fail; Argentina under the Junta - fail; Imperial Japan - fail; Imperial China - fail; Chile under Pinochet - fail; Rhodesia - fail; Zimbabwe - fail; etc. Essentially, you can a. support an ideology that can be historically demonstrated to be destined to fail and hope that when it does that you won't be around, or b. you can adapt and you and your descendants can thrive. Option b. takes courage though |
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9th November 2018, 06:16 AM | #92 |
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The question with Steve King:
Is he popular in his district because he is racist, or does his popularity in his district give him the freedom to express odious ideas? If you feel your seat is very secure, you might feel free to say what you really think. It is shameful that his comments don't disqualify him in the minds of his constituents. They don't have to vote in a liberal, just primary him with someone equally conservative that isn't a white supremacist. |
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9th November 2018, 07:23 AM | #93 |
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9th November 2018, 07:30 AM | #94 |
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9th November 2018, 08:13 AM | #95 |
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Not whining and I get plenty of attention elsewhere, but when I reply in these threads with basic, logical questions to those espousing white nationalist ideals I get <crickets> in return. I can only conclude that these folks lack a logical justification for their fears, and that's a solidly poor look just about anywhere, but especially so here at the International Skeptics Forum.
Also very much in agreement that use of cuck as some kind of insult is perhaps one of the most juvenile (and oddly fetishized) rhetorical devices I've ever seen. Is this the ISF or some kind of high school Jordan Peterson fan club? |
9th November 2018, 08:15 AM | #96 |
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Racism is not some boogeyman that SJW's created to attack white people.
Do I agree with every way, every instance, every scenario, every language, every so and so way that Progressives sometimes conceptualize racism? No. But that doesn't make it non-issue. |
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9th November 2018, 11:22 AM | #97 |
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The point is the people who were asking me to "prove" that King made racist statements make a lot of political comments here and it's pretty clear they follows US politics closely. If it would have been a "honest" question where the guy did not know who King was I would have obliged, but someone as familiar with US politics as the questioners have shown htemesleves to be I consider it a BS question to evade the issue.
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9th November 2018, 03:41 PM | #98 |
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9th November 2018, 04:09 PM | #99 |
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Pretty much my only regular exposure to politics is the discussions that go on in this forum. If you don't post it here, I'll probably never see it. And probably never care.
I don't need you to prove that King's made racist statements. I do think it's hilarious that you cannot even come up with an example of the thing this thread was supposedly created to discuss. And the quoted passage is exactly what I mean when I talk about Internet slapfights. Even if King is, somehow, defensible, there's no point in trying to defend him here, because his detractors here aren't arguing in good faith anyway. |
9th November 2018, 04:14 PM | #100 |
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9th November 2018, 06:13 PM | #101 |
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9th November 2018, 11:27 PM | #102 |
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9th November 2018, 11:38 PM | #103 |
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It is always amazing when people who seem eager to jump in and dispute an issue then begin a line of questioning that implies they're unfamiliar with the most basic facts of the case.
Although I suspect there's as much chance they were looking for an opportunity to spring the ancient White proverb of "But how is that racist?" |
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10th November 2018, 12:21 AM | #104 |
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10th November 2018, 02:10 AM | #105 |
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10th November 2018, 03:09 AM | #106 |
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Why do we need to use a word? That's rhetorical, I know the answer, it's so we can dismiss somebody without bothering to argue against their views. It's not just that the word 'racist' is routinely flopped out as a blanket condemnation, but also that the implications are apparently absolute. A racist's ideas aren't worth discussing. Whatever they do is evil and they, as a person, are filth. The objective is not to challenge and debate but to get a label to stick, whether it's to a person, a group, a political party or 30% of a country's population. Just look at the OP. The ideas of this King character are irrelevant, we just want people to try and defend the scumbag, then they can be called racist and dismissed in turn. Because that's an internet win. It's so pathetic.
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10th November 2018, 03:16 AM | #107 |
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Not just that! If a racist is a person, who doesn't view some other persons as persons, it is okay not to view a racist as a person. Which means the racist has won, it is okay not to view other persons as non-persons.
I will not defend a racist, but I will defend him/her as a person. |
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10th November 2018, 03:22 AM | #108 |
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10th November 2018, 03:37 AM | #109 |
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Well, I will listen to all humans and compare their values to mine.
Should Winston Churchill be condemned for being a racist? Yes, but only in a limited sense. He was from another time and thus our standards don't apply. Should we speak out against Steve King? Yes, but we should still treat him as a human. As for whether we should listen to a racist? Yes, but we can reject her/his points on racism in general. If the racist has other points, then separate those. But back again, I will listen to a racist, but I reject racism in any form. Now if you want to make a point of debating race as connected to science, we can do that. But if you want me to accept that some races are better in a value sense, I will call you a racist and stand by that. |
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10th November 2018, 03:42 AM | #110 |
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If anyone was making that argument, then you'd have a point. However that is only in your imagination. What is the world coming to when one can't proclaim white supremacy without being called a racist? It's political correctness gone mad. Now that is remarkably inane in the context of King. He supports proponents of the White Genocide theory. He is a racist and supporter of neo Nazis and of parties founded by actual SS members. He believes that there is a White Genocide that has to be stopped. And this is what he considers acceptable to say in public. |
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10th November 2018, 04:11 AM | #111 |
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This is what I mean. Instead of challenging his views we're invited to entirely dismiss him and everything he stands for and everything with which he is associated in one fell swoop. And as if that's not enough we're told he probably has even more extreme views in private! You know, probably. Ever wondered why people who interview the likes of Stephen Molyneux and Jared Taylor frequently come unstuck? It's not because the latter have hit upon some revolutionary truth, or even that they're speaking logically half the time, but because the interviewers think that flinging mud will be enough to get them through. And it's not, and that's why people like this are experiencing a recent surge of support because when it comes down to actual debate and engagement, they dominate. Ten years ago, maybe even a couple of years ago, the label of racist was enough to dismiss a person out of hand but the technique is so cliched and overused that it retains little of its power, and in the absence of effective opposition the far right is going from strength to strength right across the Western world.
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10th November 2018, 04:44 AM | #112 |
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That's one way the word is used. It's also used to describe a person who thinks their race is innately superior, as you know. There's no reason to retire the word, and I don't even believe you seriously propose it be retired.
Quote:
I don't think the implications are absolute. I believe in redemption (of the non religious variety). However, I see no reason to be tolerant of racism. Especially those racists who have achieved power and use that power to advance their racist beliefs.
Quote:
That said, it's not a scenario that would occur unless one chose to defend King's racist beliefs. And I hate to tell you, but when a person defends King's racist beliefs, that person just might be a racist. One thing I hate about this topic, including what I wrote above, is discussing racism as if it's binary. |
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10th November 2018, 05:31 AM | #113 |
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White male Europeans are not uniquely racist. Tribalism is common to all the race. The human race, that is. But here's the thing: White males in Europe and the US today have the best access in all history to the broadest and deepest set of facts about nature and human history. It's the jaw-dropping ignorance involved in being a white nationalist in advanced nations that offends, as it requires effort to be that contrary to reason and evidence, also known as malice. This is the issue with King and company.
King is like any white man who has not yet wised up to the real, demonstrable strength of the West, that which gave it its current preeminence technologically and militarily. Nope, not strong men or big muscles to fight with, sorry. Nope, not genetics, this is known to be incorrect. Yes, science. Science and the tech it engenders, not cash, and not strongmen, is what differentiates the achievements of today from those of the past, which also had their cash, weapons and strongmen. It's what makes, say, "Joe Plumber" as rich as many kings of old, and healthier. Also better armed, let's not forget what tech does for that. Ironically, it is the dimwit frightard in the West, running as he/she does from science and fact-based reasoning, who is daily ceding scientific and technical prowess to non-whites, his feared enemies, who, in short order, are replicating all the advantages that were imagined to pertain only to whiteness. Mega-oops! And why is this happening? A shortage of lollipops, the fear of not being able to maintain permanent sway over other men, and the unwillingness to be an equal with no thumb on the scale and compete honestly. Dang, that's some kinda trouser drop and utter failure to defend that which one claims needs defending. Whoa! Makes the inevitable seem like divine justice, or would, if it were not for the nukes. Hicks getting their homeschooling from folks who build Arks, arguing red-faced for nationalism, with access to nukes. Now that is stupid. |
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10th November 2018, 05:50 AM | #114 |
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The lengths people will go to deny racism is pretty silly. See the recent Bernie Sanders quote...
Quote:
In fact, that's exactly what they are. What else would you call it when someone won't vote for a person based on the color of their skin? It's, like a direct example of racism! Seriously, in the same sentence, he claims that they won't vote for a black person and that they aren't necessarily racist. This is how much in denial people are about the existence of racism. |
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10th November 2018, 05:50 AM | #115 |
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He has made white supremacy a key component of his platform. I don't need to assess whether he has a good set of policies on farm subsidies.
As for the rest, you need to get into the cesspit of the far right to see how many dogwhistles King uses. What he says is bad enough, what he implies to allies is worse. And claiming that it's about culture and not race doesn't really cut it, when he then talks about how blacks and hispanics will fight each other before they outnumber whites. |
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10th November 2018, 06:45 AM | #116 |
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OK, but ask yourself this: Is it likely that anybody with white nationalist leanings reading this thread would say, "Hang on, this is interesting, I may have to rethink my views here"? No, they'll laugh and dig in, because it's the same old shallow, divisive rhetoric that's been done to death, the same old 'libtards' insulting swathes of people then puzzling about why nobody listens. Then the reader will remember the name of Steve King and go on YouTube and hear him lecture, and like many on the far right he's likely a powerful speaker (I'm guessing, I don't know him) and so the listener will be further persuaded by his arguments. In all honestly I simply cannot comprehend why people can't see this.
And I repeat, I'd never heard of Steve King before I read this thread and I know next to nothing about him now, but I've heard of many other hard right-wingers like Jared Taylor, and I can absolutely see why their following is taking off. And it has nothing to do with whether they're right. |
10th November 2018, 06:48 AM | #117 |
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I can't debate his views because I don't know them. And sure, before you say how I'm going against my own argument, I would research them and debate them if there was any serious wish by others to explore them honestly but unfortunately, like all other threads on political topics, the tone has been set from the beginning. I've fallen into that trap too often.
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10th November 2018, 07:52 AM | #118 |
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Well be like xjx388 and do your homework before you decide whether to support him. King has retweeted an avowed admirer of Hitler and former chairman of the Young BNP Mark Collett He supports a white supremacist for mayor of Toronto - who has been interviewed by the Daily Stormer Feel free to look up her works but she's pretty unsavoury. She has used a specific quote of a jailed far right terrorist "We must secure the existence of our people and a future for white children." He promotes the idea that immigrant babies are destroying white culture - he seems unclear whether it is white or western, the two are used almost interchangeably. I could go on but really it's been said before. |
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10th November 2018, 07:55 AM | #119 |
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10th November 2018, 08:08 AM | #120 |
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