|
Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today. |
12th November 2018, 08:35 AM | #201 |
Guest
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,627
|
Why would you imagine? **** hole nations are often war-torn and host to terrorists, militias and other groupings with criminal motives, and those who have little concept of how to exist as a part of civilised culture. Therefore checks on people wanting to immigrate from such countries need to be more stringent, and the implications of said immigration closely scrutinised.
3...2...1... |
12th November 2018, 08:52 AM | #202 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,092
|
|
12th November 2018, 08:58 AM | #203 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 14,768
|
1. The two countries Trump specifically referred to were Haiti and El Salvador. Then generally about "African countries." Neither Haiti nor El Salvador is war torn, nor are they host to terrorists by any standard that you cannot also apply to the US. So the specific value of Trump's declaration is zero
2. As to the general claim you make here,i.e., that "******** countries" applies to countries that are war-torn or host terrorists, etc...", you might have a point, though a limited one, but it is a strawman. "We don't want anyone from Country X" is entirely different from "Country X has Problems A, B, and C; therefore we need to ensure those problems do not follow with potential immigrants; therefore we need stringent security measures." I would argue greatly about the details of that second statement, but it's a legitimate position. The first, however, is not, and it is what is being decried here. |
__________________
My kids still love me. |
|
12th November 2018, 08:58 AM | #204 |
Guest
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,627
|
|
12th November 2018, 09:03 AM | #205 |
Maledictorian
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 22,552
|
so, the most enterprising people in a war-torn country who want to break out of the circle of violence and actual create something constructive and lasting are the ones you want to prevent from leaving?
The kind of people who can create some wealth to later rebuild their nation and in the meantime help us understand how to best support peace efforts? You haven't thought this through. More importantly, you have zero clue about how incredibly stringent and thorough US screening already is. |
__________________
“Don’t blame me. I voted for Kodos.” |
|
12th November 2018, 09:08 AM | #206 |
Guest
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,627
|
I don't care about Trump, he's an idiot, but El Salvador is the murder capital of the world. Whilst you're correct it's not war torn the gang warfare produces a body count in excess of most countries that are. This is exactly the kind of country from which immigrants should be put under serious scrutiny before being allowed in.
I don't agree with the idea that "We don't want anyone from Country X", it's a broadly unproductive mindset. However, I do know that countries have limited resource, even (especially?) the US, and that if a country is to help refugees as opposed to migrants with other motivations then it needs to make those choices deliberately and carefully. |
12th November 2018, 09:10 AM | #207 |
Guest
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,627
|
|
12th November 2018, 09:22 AM | #208 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 14,768
|
That falls under your "criminal groupings" then. Got it. And your fear is that it is the members of those groupings who are seeking access to the United States through attempts at legal immigration, that we do not want people from those groupings because they have no idea how to conduct themselves in a civilized society, and that current immigration screening is insufficient to detect them?
Originally Posted by baron
|
__________________
My kids still love me. |
|
12th November 2018, 09:57 AM | #209 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Oklahoma, USA
Posts: 5,147
|
|
12th November 2018, 10:00 AM | #210 |
Uncritical "thinker"
Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 31,644
|
|
__________________
OECD healthcare spending Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK |
|
12th November 2018, 11:30 AM | #211 |
Maledictorian
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 22,552
|
|
__________________
“Don’t blame me. I voted for Kodos.” |
|
12th November 2018, 12:13 PM | #212 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,092
|
|
12th November 2018, 12:14 PM | #213 | ||||||||||||||||
Guest
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,627
|
What has that got to do with what I wrote?
Really? 2010. Inmates in adult facilities, by race and ethnicity. Jails, and state and federal prisons.
Looks that way. |
||||||||||||||||
12th November 2018, 12:16 PM | #214 |
Guest
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,627
|
|
12th November 2018, 12:19 PM | #215 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 14,768
|
|
__________________
My kids still love me. |
|
12th November 2018, 12:22 PM | #216 |
Maledictorian
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 22,552
|
another one who doesn't know the difference between refugee, migrant and people with a migratory background ...
|
__________________
“Don’t blame me. I voted for Kodos.” |
|
12th November 2018, 12:23 PM | #217 |
"más divertido"
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: USA! USA!
Posts: 24,384
|
|
12th November 2018, 12:24 PM | #218 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,092
|
|
12th November 2018, 12:24 PM | #219 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 14,768
|
|
__________________
My kids still love me. |
|
12th November 2018, 12:31 PM | #220 |
"más divertido"
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: USA! USA!
Posts: 24,384
|
I wasn't quibbling with you; it's baron that conflated an ethnic background with a political immigration status.
Refugees are not necessarily Hispanic. People of Hispanic descent are not necessarily (or even most often) immigrants. Immigrants are not necessarily (or even mostly) refugees. |
12th November 2018, 12:36 PM | #221 |
Guest
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,627
|
You just couldn't resist. Well done on the two previous posts, though, someone with less experience of this forum might have imagined you were interested in discussion.
But wait, I'll tell you what just might be racist... The assumption that newly immigrated Hispanics commit crime at a vastly lower rate than settled Hispanics. Yeah, now that sounds like a contender. |
12th November 2018, 12:39 PM | #222 |
Guest
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,627
|
First, those figures are not available so I went with a more generic set.
Second, what about the original claim that 'they' (people from violent and war torn countries) are by far the least likely to commit crime in the US. Apparently such brazen statements can be made and accepted without a shred of evidence. |
12th November 2018, 12:42 PM | #223 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 14,768
|
The inability to resist was yours, but if it was only a mistake I will accept a correction. Did your posted table, in the context in which you posted it, imply or not imply that all Hispanics are refugees (or immigrants or combination thereof)?
If not, then why post it? If so, then how is my response wrong? If you think my response is wrong because I assumed "that newly immigrated HIspanics commit crime at a vastly lower rate than settled Hispanics" your attempted refutation here fails. This isn't my first rode on this topic, and I had numbers easily to hand. Care to take a whack at finding them yourself? As to legitimate discussion and my desires for it: I'm always up for it. Still am, even here, but what's really going in is that you are taking any reasoning that looks bad for your position as a biased attack. |
__________________
My kids still love me. |
|
12th November 2018, 12:56 PM | #224 |
"más divertido"
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: USA! USA!
Posts: 24,384
|
Here are some crime stats on cities which accepted the most refugees from such areas for a decade or so. The city in Massachusetts was apparently experiencing some other factors which drove violent crime rates up. We don't have any evidence for refugees being prone to crime in America. If you have some evidence, please post it.
http://research.newamericaneconomy.o...merate-fb3.png I regularly used to interact with many refugees from war-torn Bosnia, and they weren't known for much of a crime problem. |
12th November 2018, 12:57 PM | #225 |
Self Employed
Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 46,649
|
So I guess the answer to the OP is "Yes."
|
__________________
"If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong. |
|
12th November 2018, 01:12 PM | #226 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 14,768
|
Not strictly from USG, but there are closer versions available both from there and from private organizations. Even if they were not available, posting numbers that are obviously not relevant and obviously implying that Hispanics are all immigrants/refugees does no good for your position.
Originally Posted by baron
Originally Posted by baron
|
__________________
My kids still love me. |
|
12th November 2018, 01:16 PM | #227 |
Philosopher
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Cole Valley, CA
Posts: 5,335
|
|
__________________
So, if he's doing it by divine means, I can only tell him this: 'Mr. Geller, you're doing it the hard way.' --James Randi |
|
12th November 2018, 01:18 PM | #228 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Puget Sound
Posts: 17,528
|
|
__________________
To survive election season on a skeptics forum, one must understand Hymie-the-Robot.
|
|
12th November 2018, 01:22 PM | #229 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 14,768
|
Glad to be of service.
|
__________________
My kids still love me. |
|
12th November 2018, 01:33 PM | #230 |
Uncritical "thinker"
Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 31,644
|
I know that many conservatives have condemned Steve King.
However in this thread, there are several right wingers (probably not traditional conservatives, but then the GOP isn't traditionally conservative at the moment) who seem to support him, or at least prefer to attack any criticism of him. What about you? As you are right of centre, and are active in this thread - do you condemn him? |
__________________
OECD healthcare spending Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK |
|
12th November 2018, 01:47 PM | #231 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Oklahoma, USA
Posts: 5,147
|
|
12th November 2018, 02:22 PM | #232 |
Philosopher
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Cole Valley, CA
Posts: 5,335
|
|
__________________
So, if he's doing it by divine means, I can only tell him this: 'Mr. Geller, you're doing it the hard way.' --James Randi |
|
12th November 2018, 02:26 PM | #233 |
Devilish Dictionarian
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: An elusive house at Bachelors Grove Cemetery
Posts: 20,071
|
|
__________________
"You must not let your need to be right be more important than your need to find out what's true." - Ray Dalio, Principles |
|
12th November 2018, 02:43 PM | #234 |
Uncritical "thinker"
Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 31,644
|
I can see why dudalb didn't bother quoting - he's been spewing hate for a long time.
And continues to do so - most recently describing Hispanic immigrants as dirt - which he denied, but the (conservative) magazine that reported the story has put the recording up at this link One could ask why he thought it appropriate to have a Confederate flag in his office, as, although my US history isn't that good - I'm pretty sure it was on the Union side. In the context of all his other actions, it shows where his sympathies lie. You should look at the people he's endorsed - the Toronto Mayoral candidate he endorsed claims that there is a white genocide. |
__________________
OECD healthcare spending Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK |
|
12th November 2018, 02:47 PM | #235 |
Uncritical "thinker"
Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 31,644
|
Yes but if I remember your posts correctly, you wouldn't be unhappy to be described as socially liberal and financially conservative? With reference the highlighted part - for the last two decades at least, the GOP seems to have been a radical right party rather than a conservative-right party. ETA: And I don't think that the OP has ever described himself as left-wing. |
__________________
OECD healthcare spending Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK |
|
12th November 2018, 03:01 PM | #236 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,092
|
|
12th November 2018, 03:02 PM | #237 |
Philosopher
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Cole Valley, CA
Posts: 5,335
|
|
__________________
So, if he's doing it by divine means, I can only tell him this: 'Mr. Geller, you're doing it the hard way.' --James Randi |
|
12th November 2018, 03:07 PM | #238 |
Devilish Dictionarian
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: An elusive house at Bachelors Grove Cemetery
Posts: 20,071
|
|
__________________
"You must not let your need to be right be more important than your need to find out what's true." - Ray Dalio, Principles |
|
12th November 2018, 03:24 PM | #239 |
Uncritical "thinker"
Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 31,644
|
https://www.weeklystandard.com/adam-...grants-as-dirt
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
For every DREAMer
Quote:
Now maybe King is less careful about his political fellow travellers than I am, but if I wanted to defend myself from accusations of white supremacy, I wouldn't tweet support for so many. |
__________________
OECD healthcare spending Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK |
|
12th November 2018, 03:51 PM | #240 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 18,090
|
That there are non-racists reasons to want very limited immigration is in now way on any level an argument that King holds the non-racist reasons nor that the reasons he has given are not racist. That's just poor reasoning.
And yes, King's reasons are racist. He's using the very old 'primitive people' and 'won't become American' arguments. To say that babies raised in the US won't add too nor be part of 'our culture', if they are brown babies, is racist. Full stop. It's the same arguments used against the Irish, and the Italians, and many other groups. 'They're not capable of it.' That is racist. That is stupid. That has so much evidence against it that anyone with even a passing knowledge of such things would have to work very, very hard to maintain that moronic belief. It has no merit. Provably. We do not have to pretend it does just because some are upset that it's called out as being racist on top of being stupid. It is entertaining though. 'You libs will call anything racist, you'll even call *racist thing* racist!' 'That is racist.' 'See! I was right!' ETA: Also, 'If I oversimplify my views and oversimplify King's views that I have maintained my deep ignorance of intentionally, they match, therefore his views aren't racist' is also pretty damn funny. |
__________________
Circled nothing is still nothing. "Nothing will stop the U.S. from being a world leader, not even a handful of adults who want their kids to take science lessons from a book that mentions unicorns six times." -UNLoVedRebel Mumpsimus: a stubborn person who insists on making an error in spite of being shown that it is wrong |
|
Thread Tools | |
|
|