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Tags Ghana incidents , Mohandas Gandhi , racism charges , racism issues

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Old 15th December 2018, 03:47 PM   #1
Graham2001
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Another Racist Statue Removed

Warning: This may cause mental issues in those who believe that it is impossible for anyone other than a member of the 'White Race' to be racist.


Quote:
*.The University of Ghana erected a statue of Mahatma Gandhi in June 2016. It was a gift to the country from India's president at the time.


*. Faculty and students protested the statue shortly after it went up.


*.Gandhi made racist comments against Africans while he was living in South Africa, historians said. He referred to them as "savages" in letters.



*.The university took down the statue on Tuesday night after two years of protest, but refused to say why.

https://au.yahoo.com/finance/news/gh...013037663.html
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Old 15th December 2018, 05:33 PM   #2
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It would be a lot easier if the whole world just banned all statues.
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Old 15th December 2018, 05:52 PM   #3
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Gandhi was racist. Where's the "Hardy har white people" gotcha supposed to be?
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Old 15th December 2018, 08:44 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Gandhi was racist. Where's the "Hardy har white people" gotcha supposed to be?
In the overactive imaginations of racist right wingers everywhere. That's where.
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Old 16th December 2018, 03:35 AM   #5
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Ghandi is kind of irrelevant as everyone has said dumb things.

Interesting topic though.

Would people consider Mugabe racist, given his actions against whites?

If not, why?

Last edited by cullennz; 16th December 2018 at 03:38 AM.
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Old 16th December 2018, 03:45 AM   #6
Archie Gemmill Goal
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Ghandi is kind of irrelevant as everyone has said dumb things.

Interesting topic though.

Would people consider Mugabe racist, given his actions against whites?

If not, why?
Of course he was. And any statue of him in any civilised country would be taken down. Do any exist?
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Old 16th December 2018, 03:46 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Ghandi is kind of irrelevant as everyone has said dumb things.
It's worse than that: Stalin, by all accounts, loved his daughter. Historical figures aren't cartoonish, two-dimensional epitomizations of virtue or villainy; no matter what they end up being primarily known for.

Last edited by Shadowdweller; 16th December 2018 at 03:47 AM.
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Old 16th December 2018, 04:38 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Ghandi is kind of irrelevant as everyone has said dumb things.

Interesting topic though.

Would people consider Mugabe racist, given his actions against whites?

If not, why?
No, Gandhi is not irrelevant unless you have a particular point you wish to claim irrelevancy on. In general, Gandhi certainly is not irrelevant. He's one of the individual dynamos of the second half of the 20th century.

He was also racist. He doesn't get a pass for all the good he did for his fellow Indians. Any black African country would be foolish to put up a statue honoring him; I full concur with the removal. Just as Winston Churchill did a shed load of good for the western democracies, but it would still be egregious to expect the people of the Bengal, Bhutan, Nepal,etc... to put up statues to the old fart. And to them, Churchill was an old fart racist, just as Gandhi is to Africans.

We can get into the whole Jefferson-and-Washington-owned-slaves thing or accept that some heroes' feet of clay are going to be more onerous to varying peoples. I've long since come down on the side of Jefferson having a whole lot more going for him than just owning slaves. At the same time, I'm not going to expect an all-black community in central Mississippi to erect a statue to him as their concerns are going to be different than mine.
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Old 16th December 2018, 05:27 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by Graham2001 View Post
Warning: This may cause mental issues in those who believe that it is impossible for anyone other than a member of the 'White Race' to be racist.
Is that a common belief in your experience?
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Old 16th December 2018, 11:10 AM   #10
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News flash:
People of one ethnicity can be racist against other ethnicities: it is not a liberal doctrine to believe otherwise. By far most liberals, as do most people, realize this is an unfortunate aspect of human nature.

A very few individuals, often in academia or influenced by the same, have sought to define racism more narrowly in terms of a society-power relationship in which only the dominant ethnicity can defined as "racist." But frankly very few people actually buy into this. And most, including myself, see this academic exercise as a very artificial construct separate from the more general and more correct definition of racism as prejudice independent of political power.

There are no saints in real life. I admire Gandhi for bringing the tools of non-violence to the struggles for human rights. And for his willingness to practice what he preached:

"He conquered fear and defied the racist regime in South Africa and in imperialist Britain. He went to prison five times in South Africa and nine times in India during his struggle against racism and colonialism. He was incorruptible and forsook consumerism, which had become a menace to progress. He espoused dignity of labour and the need to protect the environment. He became a symbol of peace and non-violence and his appeal is universal."
-https://thewire.in/history/gandhi-and-africans

But Gandhi was a very complicated man in real life and there are many aspects of his life I do not admire, or that simply confuse me. Certainly the evidence is that as a young lawyer in South Africa he was prejudiced, and he wrote of being offended when the South Africans treated Indians the same or nearly the same as Blacks. But this was not his only unsaintly idea. For example in his older years he shared a bed with naked young women to test, he claimed, if he had advanced his soul enough to rid it of lust (I do not know how successful he was in this goal...). He advocated several economic concepts of dubious worth. Etc.

Nonetheless the world is a far better place for all people, of all ethnicities, because of Gandhi and I honor him for that without ignoring the negatives. And he inspired many others, including Nelson Mandela and Martin Luther King Jr. toward their own achievements. Mandela was well aware of the racist statements made by the young Gandhi. Mandela wrote in an article in 1995, “Gandhi must be forgiven those prejudices and judged in the context of the time and circumstances. We are looking here at the young Gandhi, still to become Mahatma, when he was without any human prejudice save that in favour of truth and justice.”

Frankly I have no problem with the University of Ghana taking down his statue. Nor would I have a problem with them retaining his statue either. It depends on the parts of Gandhi's life and beliefs that are most meaningful to them.

BTW: I also have no problem contrasting the honor in which I hold even the flawed Gandhi with the disrespect I have for those whose sole "achievements" were to commit treason and to fight for the right to keep other people in slavery.
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Old 16th December 2018, 05:44 PM   #11
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Just think: At this rate only a few generations from now we will all be perfect.
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Old 17th December 2018, 02:30 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Just think: At this rate only a few generations from now we will all be perfect.
"Perfection is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence."

- Vince Lombardi
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Old 17th December 2018, 04:20 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Graham2001 View Post
Warning: This may cause mental issues in those who believe that it is impossible for anyone other than a member of the 'White Race' to be racist.





https://au.yahoo.com/finance/news/gh...013037663.html
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Old 17th December 2018, 06:03 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Just think: At this rate only a few generations from now we will all be perfect.
Especially the reactionaries. At the rate you're making America great again, you'll be discovering fire any day, now.
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Old 17th December 2018, 08:31 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Just think: At this rate only a few generations from now we will all be perfect.
Perhaps just a little, little bit better... At least that is the direction to work toward.

It does happen. Compare the slavery of 160 years ago in the USA to the governmentally established, implemented, and protected racism that existed just 60 years ago. Compare the governmentally maintained racism of 60 years ago to now. Not perfect, but better... even more than a little bit better.

What is the alternative - to celebrate and embrace our failings? To give up and accept evil?
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Old 17th December 2018, 08:37 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
What is the alternative - to celebrate and embrace our failings? To give up and accept evil?
No it's reject "the other side" improving in any manner that isn't "instantly jump to 100% perfection" so your side never has to improve at all.
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Old 17th December 2018, 09:08 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
No it's reject "the other side" improving in any manner that isn't "instantly jump to 100% perfection" so your side never has to improve at all.

For example, the argument "If you're so concerned about pollution and climate change, why aren't you living in a cave and walking everywhere you go?"
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Old 17th December 2018, 09:23 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Ghandi is kind of irrelevant as everyone has said dumb things.
And spent 20 years of their life showing that their race should be considered superior to blacks. I mean who hasn't done that?
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Old 17th December 2018, 09:27 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
Nonetheless the world is a far better place for all people, of all ethnicities, because of Gandhi and I honor him for that without ignoring the negatives. And he inspired many others, including Nelson Mandela and Martin Luther King Jr. toward their own achievements. Mandela was well aware of the racist statements made by the young Gandhi. Mandela wrote in an article in 1995, “Gandhi must be forgiven those prejudices and judged in the context of the time and circumstances. We are looking here at the young Gandhi, still to become Mahatma, when he was without any human prejudice save that in favour of truth and justice.”.
Was he then though? Did he ever change his views on blacks? Did he ever really view women as his equal?
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Old 17th December 2018, 10:23 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Was he then though? Did he ever change his views on blacks? Did he ever really view women as his equal?
The quote was from Mandela, so apparently the overall context of Gandhi's life led Mandela to forgive the racist statements from Gandhi's time as a young man in South Africa.

Personally I do not know Gandhi's thoughts about race later in his life. The racist statements that I have seen appear to date exclusively to his early life, not after his elevation into a leader, but I do not know if he ever specifically reputed his early views. Similarly I do not know of his specific views of women, although he would have been an extreme rarity in his culture and religion at the time to view women as equal.

But both are irrelevant to my main point: no one is a saint and one can do great things in the world even though flawed. And others must judge the complex mix of greatness and flaws in every human based on their own perspective.

Frankly I cannot think of any great individual in any field of human endeavor who was without flaws. I value Gandhi for what was great in him without ignoring his flaws just as I value the greatness in Einstein (who was apparently a womanizer) and in Churchill (a racist and more). I can live with contradictions because... I have to.
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