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3rd February 2019, 02:12 PM | #241 |
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3rd February 2019, 02:54 PM | #242 |
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3rd February 2019, 03:14 PM | #243 |
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3rd February 2019, 03:19 PM | #244 |
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What's beyond stupid is that Democrats disown their candidates at the merest hint of scandal, while Republicans support their candidates up to the hilt no matter how obnoxious the behavior - thus pretty much guaranteeing that Democrats lose, while the obnoxious behavior becomes acceptable if you are a Republican.
You would think that Democrats would have learned by now that nobody is so pure that a scandal can't be stuck to them, and that republicans will find something to smear you with. You would think that after Kavanaugh every Democrat would be pulling out their yearbook and preemptively apologizing for whatever is in it, as well as anything else that could be used against them. But, no they don't give it a thought - then act surprised when it blows up in their face. It's almost like they want to lose... In a rational world, ignoring serious flaws in your own candidate while calling out the slightest indiscretion (real or imagined) in the opposition would be seen for what it is - blatantly hypocritical. But democrats fall for it every time, because they are beyond stupid. |
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3rd February 2019, 03:54 PM | #245 |
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I think that was totally true with Al Franken. But this is a whole other kettle of fish. Virginia is a diverse state and the African American vote is too damn important. That picture is enough to crush it.
There are things you cannot do in either party. But they differ. If Northam was a Republican, he'd be given the benefit of the doubt by the GOP especially in a Southern State. This is about political calculation. |
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3rd February 2019, 03:57 PM | #246 |
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And this has got me thinking. How would Virginia handle the Governor stepping down? Would the Lt Governor serve out the remainder of his term or will they hold a Special Election? If it's the latter I definitely don't want him to resign.
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3rd February 2019, 03:57 PM | #247 |
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Yet again, to go over everything;
1) When the president is an eager white supremacist, and after KKKers, Nazi wannabes, and other such clowns descended on a Virginia town with the express purpose of inflicting violence against black, hispanic, and Jewish people, with a thin excuse of preserving a traitor's statue as cover, the democratic base is not interested in people who have KKK outfits and full on minstrel caricatures in their background (particularly given that these people are doctors, but that's another issue); 2) Northram had years to have gotten in front of this, and failed, and the final straw; 3) Him moonwalking his initial apology, and then saying that there was some other blackface incident in his past where he imitated Michael Jackson (dud, red jacket, one glove. There's your outfit, that's all you need), but is completely unable to explain how the original photo got on his yearbook page; combined means that this is a crisis of his own making. Had it been the first alone, he *might* have been able to recover. Had he put it out himself and said he was beyond those days, he hoped to prove himself, and so on, that'd be far different. But sorry, the first photo isn't a "hint of scandal", it's highly important to a large number of people. And when Fairfax, who seems far more principled than Northram, is right there ready to take over, why even bother trying to redeem Northram? And that's especially true given that their state legislature is up for vote in November, and the dems are very close to taking over entirely. Republicans protect their own no matter what? No kidding, and that's exactly why they're widely seen as the party of bigotry, and why we have a bigoted oaf for a president. That's the last thing I want a political party I'm in to be. |
3rd February 2019, 04:06 PM | #248 |
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That pretty well sums it up. This might have been survivable - with a real apology, a real admission of the wrongness of the previous action, a real show of contrition.
He did none of that. Every attempt he has made to improve the situation has made it worse. The black caucus called for him to resign after meeting with him. The press conference was a disaster. He's toast. |
3rd February 2019, 06:53 PM | #249 |
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3rd February 2019, 08:27 PM | #250 |
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He's claimed that the picture isn't him. If that could credibly be proven to be true (the yearbook editors say pictures frequently got switched around, the guys depicted say "That's me! So what?"), should Northam still quit?
Speaking of those editors, no one seems to be asking who they were and what were they thinking? This wasn't a junior high in 1955; it was a medical school in 1984. How could they think it was alright to publish that picture in any context? |
3rd February 2019, 08:33 PM | #251 |
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3rd February 2019, 08:41 PM | #252 |
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3rd February 2019, 08:46 PM | #253 |
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3rd February 2019, 08:55 PM | #254 |
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The KKK reference would be clear cut at any time, the picture could only be taken to intinidate, offend or incite. But the black face make-up was fairly mainstream at one stage. I looked this up to remind me of the date, this show pre-dates the year book.
"The Black and White Minstrel Show*was a British light entertainment show that ran for twenty years on*BBC*prime-time television. Beginning in 1958, it was a weekly*light entertainment*and*variety show*which presented traditional American*minstrel*and country songs, as well as show tunes and*music hall*numbers, and with lavish costumes.The show was accused of*racism*and ethnic stereotyping by black*civil rights*groups in the UK, such as the*Campaign Against Racial Discrimination, due to its use of*blackface. This racial controversy led to the programme's eventual cancellation from television in 1978" This was the UK, perhaps in the US this was recognised to be unacceptable even earlier. |
3rd February 2019, 09:03 PM | #255 |
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Why doesn't he just change his party to Republican? Because then he'll have an entire party and president defending him.
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1. He'd never do that. 2. Okay but he's not currently doing it. 3. Okay but he's not currently technically doing it. 4. Okay but everyone does it. 5. He's doing it, we can't stop him, no point in complaining about it. 6. We all knew he was going to do it which... makes it okay somehow. 7. It's perfectly fine that's he's doing it. |
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3rd February 2019, 09:14 PM | #256 |
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3rd February 2019, 09:49 PM | #257 |
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3rd February 2019, 09:54 PM | #258 |
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Even in the '80s, "coon" was a pretty old worn out pejorative. I keep looking for some other possible explanation but damned if I can come up with one. In retrospect, if he had more than one incident of playing a character (real or imagined) in blackface, maybe that was his thing. And the couple of people who called him that were referencing his fondness for playing dress-up?
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3rd February 2019, 11:50 PM | #259 |
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Not much. To be sure, there were objections to blackface and minstrelsy by educated blacks dating back to Frederick Douglass (the guy who Trump thinks has done pretty good), but the objections were of the material, which portrayed caricatures and what were to become horrid stereotypes.
The use of blackface in variety show type performances became such a mainstay that when troupes of actual BLACK performers were put together, they wore the blackface, too. It was, as I understand it, to avoid confusing the white audience who didn't want to deal with fifty shades of black. But it became such a mainstay that black comedians into the 30s and 40s said they knew they could perform without it but felt naked without it. At one point, Ziegfeld's highest paid performer was a black man doing blackface. Further, Jolson's portrayal is still one of the accepted representations of blackface in film and TV; a reproduction of a performance where someone makes up in blackface. It happens to be a reproduction of his own variety show act, but blackface was so common up to then, that there were very few objections, with the black press actually giving the film a positive review. Ironically, though, it was the reaction to blackface in Birth of a Nation that marked the end of whites portraying blacks in movies*. I think it had more to do with the fact that the film was objectionable as a whole, so the practice drew more attention than it might have in fifty other films made that year. In hindsight, Jolson later got criticism but of the generic sort... white people shouldn't be donning burnt cork to portray blacks.... period. Some of this came from resurgent black pride, but a lot of it came from Actors Equity sorts who wanted black actors even in supporting or extra roles for reasons of equal employment opportunities. *That's not to say "blackface". Blackface routines showed up in a lot of movies by some fairly prominent stars. But they were known whiteys doing the bit as a show within a show, generally, e.g. being shown doing a variety or Vaudeville performance in a period like Jolson doing the Jazz Singer. What I'm referring to is the practice of making up white actors as blacks simply as part of a scene. Check out any of the Johnny Weissmuller Tarzan films. The natives in the films are either suspiciously beige or obviously whites corked over. This practice continued for background and extra roles (and some starring) for Native American, LatinX, Asian and Middle Eastern roles for decades. |
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4th February 2019, 03:45 AM | #260 |
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"Coon" can also be short for "raccoon". I don't know if he's from anywhere where that's the case, though, nor whether he's a hunter or something else innocent that could have earned him the nickname. The fact that he claims not to know why he was called that suggests to me that it's not something innocent.
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4th February 2019, 03:55 AM | #261 |
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets;12588269You would think that Democrats would have learned by now that [I
Perhaps there is more to come out, but your statement is rather hyperbolic. It seems that the easiest way to not be smeared by the Republicans is not to have things in your past they can smear you with. Just act like a normal, decent human being and you'll probably be okay. |
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4th February 2019, 04:48 AM | #262 |
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4th February 2019, 06:12 AM | #263 |
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4th February 2019, 06:26 AM | #264 |
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Well, of course there's nothing to stop people making **** up. Ocasio-Cortez has had that too (remember the "nude selfie"?).
Roger's argument was that everybody had actually done something that they could be smeared with, therefore Democrats should stand by people like Northam when something like this comes out rather than saying "that's not okay". I'm pointing out that it doesn't appear that everybody has a secret past of blackface and so even if "politicians should be more tribal and care less about their personal moral values" were a decent argument, then the premise on which its based is still false. Again, the above is the caveat that perhaps Ocasio-Cortez really is a secret Nazi/rapist/kitten-murderer and she's just been better at hiding it than the Republicans are. |
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4th February 2019, 06:38 AM | #265 |
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Except that it's exactly what you did. The two are not comparable so there's no reason to bring Kavanaugh up.
Again you have no idea what the rule of so is. Everybody who has ever made a joke or done something that could hypothetically insult someone, somewhere, especially according to someone else, has got to go. Or, perhaps we could stop being so offended all the time. The standard is set up so that no one passes. It helps with the constant outrage. Yeah it would more accurately be equated with murder, no? |
4th February 2019, 06:45 AM | #266 |
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He was an adult in med school in 1984. It was ******* blackface not an off-color joke. Blackface has been offensive and insulting for a long ass time; not just recently because white men deigned to realize it. His behavior since this came to light has made it even clearer he should resign or be removed from office.
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4th February 2019, 07:23 AM | #267 |
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Exactly.
Odd. Oh no! He did something really offensive at some point of his life! I guess we ship him off to Australia, then. Here's the ugly truth: especially in these days where everything you say and do is recorded, if we throw out everybody who said or did something that someone could consider offensive, no one would be left. Hell, some of the best humour is terribly offensive. What do we do with comedians? His behaviour since, however, is a different matter. He should've owned it and/or apologised and moved on. |
4th February 2019, 07:35 AM | #268 |
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I find this whole brouhaha just boring.
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4th February 2019, 08:00 AM | #269 |
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I am personally having a problem with all this. I can't get past that this was 35 years ago. I don't care he was an adult then. It was still 35 #$%#ing years ago! It's not like he killed or raped someone and got away with it. He wore a stupid racist costume...a long long long very long time ago.
We have a President who actively discriminated against people of color in his rental practices. He launched his political career promoting the racist idea that Obama wasn't a legitimate President. So Republicans SHUT THE HELL UP. You have no moral standing in regards to the Governor. My ONLY issue is how this affects the electorate in Virginia. If it makes it too hard to govern effectively and makes an important constituency too resentful then he should step down. But I still think it is ridiculous. |
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4th February 2019, 08:03 AM | #270 |
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I think it helps for the D's to show some pretty high standards for this kind of racist crap. Comparing them to the republicans is pointless. We all already know they are the party of conspiracy theories and racism. The Republican party is on the verge of becoming the explicit white-minority political party, with people like King easing his toes into the water.
D's policing their own is a good thing, it shows that ideas still matter. Even in the 80's the KKK and blackface were extremely bad taste costume ideas. Does that make the governor an unredeemable racist today? Maybe not. I think we can do better though. |
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4th February 2019, 08:17 AM | #271 |
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With the number of other black face pictures in the year book, to what extent do we know the year book staff made sure that those pictures were on the pages of the indivuals in them?
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4th February 2019, 08:19 AM | #272 |
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4th February 2019, 08:20 AM | #273 |
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4th February 2019, 08:20 AM | #274 |
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4th February 2019, 08:22 AM | #275 |
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4th February 2019, 08:23 AM | #276 |
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4th February 2019, 08:25 AM | #277 |
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4th February 2019, 08:29 AM | #278 |
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4th February 2019, 08:31 AM | #279 |
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The guy was in medical school, not some dumb kid in high school.
Sucks that his elite medical school appears to have had a culture of racist, poor taste jokes. These elite institutions should have taken more care to protect their reputation. I think the public is learning to look at these allegedly elite institutions with a bit more critical eye, which is good. Kavanaugh's hearing showed that these "future leader" factories are rife with boorish, entitled a-holes who have learned to do whatever they like with no consequences. While some of that can be accredited to youthful indiscretion, it seems that very little was done to curb this behavior. The more the public sees behind closed doors of these institutions of the rich and powerful, the more it is disgusted. Good riddance to all these garbage people. |
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4th February 2019, 08:41 AM | #280 |
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Yeah, graduating at what, 25 years old, assuming he went straight through from high school? And the pic would have been taken before graduation. We're still talking about early twenties. Maturity still in development for a lot of people that age.
People can change, too. If he was the Grand Dragon of his schools Klan outpost, I would give it a pass without a second thought, if his track record since then showed that he has had an obvious change of heart. |
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