|
Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today. |
7th August 2019, 01:08 PM | #161 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 25,306
|
|
__________________
If you're not a scientist but you think you've destroyed the foundation of a vast scientific edifice with 10 minutes of Googling, you might want to consider the possibility that you're wrong. Its TRE45ON season... convict the F45CIST!! |
|
7th August 2019, 01:32 PM | #162 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,083
|
Short(ish) version : way back in the days of USENET there was a group called alt.fan.warlord which specialized in making fun of people with overly large, garish signature blocks, often festooned with horrible ASCII art. One of the recurring targets for some reason were people with signatures which had large maps of Australia in them, and the claim was that the city most often marked on those maps was Perth. As time went on the joke became taking someone's mess of an attempt at an ASCII art car or dog or whatever from their signature block, and dropping in a random asterisk with an arrow pointed at it and labeled as Perth.
example (stock ASCII art of a cat which gets messed up when trying to copy/paste) : _._ _,-'""`-._ (,-.`._,'( |\`-/| `-.-' \ )-`( , o o) `- \`_`" *<---Perth Basically a way of saying "your attempt at putting an ASCII topless Jerry Ryan in your signature is so awful it looks more like a map of Australia, and you'd neglected to point our where Perth was. </derail> |
7th August 2019, 05:39 PM | #163 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 60,375
|
|
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein. |
|
7th August 2019, 05:47 PM | #164 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 60,375
|
Well, you sort of stepped in with the bolded remark, since I of Irish descent.
(Irish German actually,most boring ethnic group in America). But I think you furnish a good example of "respectable" Republicans who are now defending bigots and racists because they have become politically dependent on them, and can't figure out a way to end the dependacy. And you know with that remark about Provo, an almost lilly white town, you are saying that only whites can be "real" Conservatives. And another one outs himself.... |
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein. |
|
7th August 2019, 05:51 PM | #165 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 60,375
|
It's not a coincidence that a great many free market/limited government advocates are now calling themselves "Libertarians" because they cannot stomach what the Conservative movement has become.
|
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein. |
|
7th August 2019, 07:08 PM | #166 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: NY
Posts: 13,616
|
Quote:
Comments about black people being foolish to give 90% of their votes to the Democratic Party in exchange for nothing actually reveals the myopic world view of those who make those comments. They are white people who are so accustomed to dealing only with other white people they take it for granted that is the way everywhere. Only it's not. I've been a registered Democrat for many years. Heck, we even ran a black man for President of the United States. Twice! |
7th August 2019, 08:57 PM | #167 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 56,425
|
|
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
|
7th August 2019, 11:03 PM | #168 |
Cowardly Lurking in the Shadows of Greatness
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Arizona
Posts: 5,718
|
The purge of racists who were lured away by the GOP?
|
__________________
Normal is just a stereotype. |
|
8th August 2019, 12:15 AM | #169 | ||
Philosopher
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 8,726
|
I don't think you get what I'm saying.
Most of the worst racists are the people who have subconcious ideas that burst to the surface when they see a black person with braids, or a do-rag, or who doesn't smile enough, or whose voice is "too low". And this one includes a lot of white liberals that suddenly fret when there are black kids in the same schools as their kids. But the folks who are just outright hostile, most of us can smell a mile away.
|
||
8th August 2019, 06:46 AM | #170 |
"más divertido"
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: USA! USA!
Posts: 24,384
|
|
8th August 2019, 06:57 AM | #171 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,083
|
True story : poking fun at people in alt.usenet.kooks is what introduced me to skepticism.
In the mid 90s or so AUK was getting a lot of cross posting fun with alt.astrology and a certain Earl Gordon Curley. Eventually they started cross posting with sci.skeptic and the legal wranglings between EGC and Randi came out. That caused me to lurk more in sci.skeptic and the old JREF web board. Started picking up Randi's books at that point. And so it was that hanging out in a group which regularly cross posted with other groups like alt.alien.vampire.flonk.flonk.flonk and alt.fan.karl.maldens.nose introduced me to critical thinking and skepticism. </more derail> |
8th August 2019, 07:46 AM | #172 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 56,425
|
I see you haven't been keeping up with the news.
https://thehill.com/homenews/campaig...night-massacre |
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
|
8th August 2019, 07:52 AM | #173 |
"más divertido"
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: USA! USA!
Posts: 24,384
|
Intimating that a purge of the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee leadership substantially changes the racial make up of "Democratic officials and office holders" makes no sense, whether you are up on political news or not.
ETA - Democratic office-holders, by way of illustration: Seats in the Senate 45 / 100 Seats in the House 235 / 435 State Governorships 23 / 50 State Upper Chamber Seats 874 / 1,972 State Lower Chamber Seats 2,579 / 5,411 Total State Legislature Seats 3,453 / 7,366 Territorial Governorships 4 / 6 Territorial Upper Chamber Seats 31 / 97 |
8th August 2019, 07:58 AM | #174 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 56,425
|
|
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
|
8th August 2019, 09:12 AM | #175 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Georgia, USA
Posts: 11,828
|
Curious, your source states that 5 people resigned over discontent with the Chairperson.
Originally Posted by your source
|
8th August 2019, 01:46 PM | #176 |
... and your little dog too.
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 16,361
|
Yes, by all means, let's have an honest debate.
Steve Sailer - whose work you reference in the OP - characterizes black people as requiring "stricter moral guidance" because of their "poorer native judgement". Do you agree? |
8th August 2019, 04:00 PM | #177 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 25,306
|
|
__________________
If you're not a scientist but you think you've destroyed the foundation of a vast scientific edifice with 10 minutes of Googling, you might want to consider the possibility that you're wrong. Its TRE45ON season... convict the F45CIST!! |
|
8th August 2019, 06:43 PM | #178 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: NY
Posts: 13,616
|
Another favorite winger meme is, "The Democratic Party is the most racist party and liberals are the real racists. They only pretend not to be."
This one's been around a long time. I used to discuss this with a guy I was in business with back in the Reagan era. And he loved Reagan! He used to say the same kinds of things they're saying today. He said it was infuriating to hear Democrats talk about black rights or inner cities or better schools when in reality Democrats probably hated black people more than anyone else. I finally realized, he was so lacking in anything approaching compassion or empathy, he was so callous and uncaring about other people -- in fact he used to brag about it -- that it was just impossible for him to believe not everyone was like him. I realized after a while, he was really and truly convinced he was right. In his world compassion and empathy, a regard for fairness, those things just didn't exist. It was strictly, "What's in it for me?" It infuriated him that "liberals" tried to pretend they were "different." In his mind, that made them "worse." It was beyond him to even have a glimmer that maybe not everyone felt the same way he did. He was convinced Democratic politicians only pretended to be concerned with the plight of black Americans in order to get their vote. In his mind, that was extremely cruel and only possible because those Democratic politicians had even less regard for black people then he did. If he's still around I know he's loving Trump. |
8th August 2019, 07:19 PM | #179 |
Critical Thinker
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: The Lion's Den
Posts: 449
|
The point I was making was that the English had certain opinions of the Irish dating back centuries. When the Irish came to America, many Americans had come to share these same sentiments on the Irish. So it is likely these opinions were based on real experiences with the Irish.
There are probably many "lily white towns" in America. I was asked which one best represents conservative ideals. I answered Provo, Utah. Many liberals may view Portland, Oregon as a liberal ideal. It is 76% white. Actually, there are many liberals of all races, who believe that only whites can be "real conservatives". Liberals will call black conservatives Uncle Toms, tokens, sellouts, traitors or "black white supremacists". Why do they do this unless they associate whiteness with conservatism? It was Candace Owens who made the point that Democrats have never cared about black lives, only black votes. I don't necessarily share this same viewpoint. But the point still stands, how have blacks benefitted from all their years voting for Democrats? Baltimore is a black Democrat dominated city. How has black Democratic rule benefitted the average black in Baltimore? This is a possibility. But the specific issue here is the police and their interactions with the black community. If the police were really engaged in racist policing tactics as a matter of policy, which was ineffective and senseless, there would be no surge in the black crime rate when they pulled back from said tactics. But there was a huge surge in the crime rate after 2014. He was remarking on the success of the Croatian soccer team, tennis player Novak Djokovic, and the high frequency of south Slavs in the NBA. He wasn't looking at track athletes. In his column he was specifically referring to New Orleans' blacks. He wrote, "Judging from their economic and educational statistics, New Orleans' blacks are not even an above-average group of African-Americans, such as you find in Atlanta or Seattle, but more like Miami's or Milwaukee's." You can read his entire column here. |
__________________
pomeroo: "Mark, where did this guy get the idea that you talked about holding aluminum in your hand?" Undesired Walrus: "Why, Ron, Mark mentioned this on your very own show!" |
|
8th August 2019, 08:25 PM | #180 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 6,415
|
Absolutely no such qualifier existed for the passage in which that statement appears:
Quote:
But hey, the paragraph before makes a dig at cuisine (we've seen that paraded around here a lot...) and the second paragraph after it engages in some really fun projection on the part of the author insisting that in a diverse setting, everyone votes for their skin color over their principles. Basically, we can safely call this article a steaming pile of ****. |
8th August 2019, 09:59 PM | #181 |
Muse
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 523
|
|
8th August 2019, 10:56 PM | #182 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 8,726
|
Yep.
(Not that this is a shock, Sailer's a notorious racist.) I'm laughing, because of the tape of Reagan calling African people "monkeys" - or rather, the shocked reaction from people who used to talk about how great he was. My only response on Twitter was: "We been knew." - African American saying. Of course Reagan (Pro-Apartheid, anti-Civil Rights Act, anti-Voting Rights Act, anti-Fair Housing Act, anti-MLK Jr. Day, creator of the "Welfare Queen" myth, responsible for lack of investment in black communities, denied all loans to black farmers [see: Pigford settlement], among many other things) was a damn racist. What are these people surprised about? Of course, many of them just didn't notice, more examples of my theory that many people, almost all white, in the US simply cannot spot racism - mostly because they simply have no need to see it. In your "friend's" case, though, sounds more like just lack of empathy. |
8th August 2019, 11:53 PM | #183 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,092
|
Yep, he's been around since at least 2000 pushing not only his racist crap but also explicitly pushing the GOP to exploit racism among working whites: The Man Who Invented Identity Politics for the New Right
Quote:
|
9th August 2019, 01:10 AM | #184 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 25,306
|
In our parts, we have a saying for that attitude... "I'm Alright Jack", made famous in the lyrics of a song called "Money" by Pink Floyd.
Money, get back |
__________________
If you're not a scientist but you think you've destroyed the foundation of a vast scientific edifice with 10 minutes of Googling, you might want to consider the possibility that you're wrong. Its TRE45ON season... convict the F45CIST!! |
|
9th August 2019, 01:43 AM | #185 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 32,124
|
I think this is more accurate than many people realise. It's the whole "I don't even see race, and if you do then you're the real racist" thing. What these people don't understand is that if you live in a majority white society that is biased in favour of white people, then being white is what allows you to not even see race. If you couple that with a lack of empathy, then you just assume it's all the same for everybody and any BAME person who does speak up about having encountered racism can be dismissed as having "a chip on their shoulder".
|
__________________
I don't trust atoms. They make up everything. |
|
9th August 2019, 09:48 AM | #186 |
... and your little dog too.
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 16,361
|
You are quoting from a different passage.
And as Delphic Oracle pointed out, the passage from which I've quoted contains no such qualifiers. Also, I've already twice provided a link to the article. I'm not sure why you felt a third was necessary. So in the spirit of honest debate, please tell me whether or not you agree with this argument:
Originally Posted by Steve Sailer
|
9th August 2019, 10:04 AM | #187 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 13,384
|
This is misleading.
The idea is simple: conservatism ignores minority needs and benefits the wealthy (and hence, statistically speaking, white). Therefore, since political views are correlated with personal benefit, conservatives will tend to be white. (The Uncle Tom reference is that conservatism is so bad for black people that a black conservative is selling out the interests of his fellow black people.) I'm not commenting on whether the claims above are true, just pointing out that to say that conservatives are overwhelmingly white is statistically just a fact and that making up a story about this doesn't require thinking white folk are naturally conservative, but rather that modern conservatism is more appealing to white folk for a number of reasons. No racism in that story at all. The Uncle Tom thing is arguably racist. At least it strongly suggests that one ought to have a loyalty to his race. |
9th August 2019, 10:26 AM | #188 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 8,726
|
You're making the same mistake - confusing "conservative" and "republican". The former is very common among black Americans - and I have no idea why anyone would be surprised that a highly religious, southern-based culture with an eye towards small business ownership wouldn't be.
The problem is that - since around 1900 but accelerating beginning in 1964, the GOP has become increasingly defined through overt white supremacism as policy - see Nixon, Reagan, Helms, Gingrich, Steve King, and now Dolt 45 (and that's why I keep saying that he's not the cause, he's just an effect). Even when GWB was president, the Civil Rights division of the DOJ was hollowed out, and bigots like J. Christian Adams brought in to help suppress minority votes. In contrast, democrats are pro-abortion rights, but at least they don't form a conga line every time a cop fires 3 magazines into a ten-year-old black kid that was selling water so his family could go to Disneyworld. Faced with this, black conservatives, by and large, either vote for democrats to keep the Klansmen out of government, or they just throw their hands up and don't vote at all. And when black republicans are typified by people like Diamond and Silk (who remind me of the crows from Dumbo more than anything else), and Jesse Lee Peterson, well...tell me "Uncle Tom" is wrong. (although people use another word/phrase for these folks) |
9th August 2019, 06:26 PM | #189 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: NY
Posts: 13,616
|
It seems disingenuous to me to cite Baltimore Maryland as the yardstick to measure Democratic urban governments and even worse to use the city as a way to measure the effectiveness of a black Democratic city government. Baltimore has had a spike in violent crime, everyone knows that.
Twenty years ago the bad city was Newark NJ.
Quote:
|
9th August 2019, 06:30 PM | #190 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 8,394
|
|
9th August 2019, 07:36 PM | #191 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 8,726
|
|
10th August 2019, 04:47 AM | #192 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 25,306
|
It took you three days to think about it, and this is all all you could come up with? Seriously?
So you are admitting that rednecks commit the most homicides in America? Actually, you took me to task for using a racial term against rednecks! I said You said You said Looks like you need some more schoolin' When a person of one race uses a disparaging term against another member of his/her own race, that does not meet the definition of racism, which I will repeat for you Definition of racism: prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior. https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/racism When one black person calls another black person ****** (the N-word) that is NOT racism When I can another white person "redneck" that is NOT racism |
__________________
If you're not a scientist but you think you've destroyed the foundation of a vast scientific edifice with 10 minutes of Googling, you might want to consider the possibility that you're wrong. Its TRE45ON season... convict the F45CIST!! |
|
10th August 2019, 06:30 AM | #193 |
... and your little dog too.
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 16,361
|
|
10th August 2019, 07:31 AM | #194 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 8,394
|
|
10th August 2019, 08:19 AM | #195 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Georgia, USA
Posts: 11,828
|
|
10th August 2019, 10:14 AM | #196 |
Critical Thinker
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: The Lion's Den
Posts: 449
|
He assumes genetic differences along with social and cultural differences. But in certain endeavors, like running, it's hard to argue against genetics not playing a role. Look at the 100 meter sprint. Steve Sailer writes,
...none of the 8 finalists in the last 9 Olympic men's 100 meter dash going back to 1984 have been more than half non-black. So, we've had 72 blacks out of the last 72 100m dash finalists. Do I agree that New Orleans at the time was run by incompetent black politicians and the response to Hurricane Katrina was a disaster? Absolutely. Do I agree that it applies to all blacks at all times? Not necessarily. The modern Left believes it is immoral for politicians to appeal to the interests of whites. But in a democracy this is totally legitimate. You can appeal to every other ethnic lobby, but to appeal to white interests is "white supremacy". It is interesting that you mentioned the year 1964 as the real start of "white supremacy". A higher percentage of Republicans in Congress voted for the Civil Rights Act of 1964 than Democrats. Apparently, this is how the GOP started their "white supremacism" policies. But there was another trend that started in 1964 that is in-line with the topic at hand. The murder rate in American doubled between 1964 and 1974. This huge increase in our crime rate, focused largely in American cities, has had a huge effect on our politics. What you describe as "white supremacy" is really just whites who believe in law and order and don't wish to see their communities torn apart by crime and other forms of social dysfunction. It is interesting to note that in history it was only sieges, wars, fires and natural disasters such as floods, earthquakes and hurricanes that could destroy great cities. But in the 1960s a new possibility was added, Liberalism. Detroit was known as the "Paris of the West". Yet within a few decades it was nothing more than an urban jungle. There were many other once great American cities that suffered similar devastation. Americans who are concerned that their once great cities are being reduced to hell-holes are described as "white supremacists". The term 'white supremacy" is a way to pathologize whites when they express the same sentiments as every other people on this planet. Baltimore, along with Detroit, St. Louis, Chicago, Camden, New Orleans, Birmingham, Memphis, Jackson, Selma etc.... False. Blacks comprise roughly 13% of the US population and account for some 52% of all homicides. |
__________________
pomeroo: "Mark, where did this guy get the idea that you talked about holding aluminum in your hand?" Undesired Walrus: "Why, Ron, Mark mentioned this on your very own show!" |
|
10th August 2019, 10:36 AM | #197 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,092
|
There are valid inferences that can be drawn from statistics, and then there are some incredibly stupid ones. When Sailer gathers statistics and groups them by race, he's already wrong before he even attempts his first inference: Race won't tell him anything useful at all. All it does is completely conceal actual causes and effects and replace them with an overriding, completely bogus one. And that's the purpose.
|
10th August 2019, 10:40 AM | #198 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 32,124
|
|
__________________
I don't trust atoms. They make up everything. |
|
10th August 2019, 11:06 AM | #199 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: NY
Posts: 13,616
|
Quote:
Quote:
I presume the winger 'answer' is strict racial separation. That's where all this is both coming from and headed to. |
10th August 2019, 11:38 AM | #200 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 8,726
|
The phrase itself gives up the game, and has since Nixon and Friends latched onto it. After all, if you already have "law", then what exact sort of "order" do you need in addition to that? Well, how about a hierarchy where white men are at the top, and black and Native people at the absolute bottom?
(I recommend "Rule of law" for those who wish to avoid this implication. I'd say that Dolt 45 lost nearly every black voter when he emphasized this phrase during a debate but, y'know, birtherism already made his hatred of black people obvious) I've said (or rather, I get from academics who have studied things far more than I have) before that white supremacism, in the US, is about transferring wealth from nonwhite people (and incidentally from poor white people), and giving said wealth to some white people. The classic means is by dividing people by race, by suckering poorer white people into believing that they're superior to nonwhite people - in fact, they're so inferior that they're better off if wealthy white people govern them, instead of letting them govern themselves! Dolt 45 is a perfect example. "Look at that foreign negro Obama! I bet it'd be easy for a superior white man like me to fix health care, stop Iran from getting a nuke, and balance the budget!" Turns out he's an incredibly bad presidentYes, he was wealthy to start, and likely still is. But he's too stupid to understand the game, so he's one of the marks. (Compare to the claims made in the OP) |
Thread Tools | |
|
|