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10th January 2020, 08:43 AM | #41 |
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Not just a PowerPoint. The complaint claims that two teachers put substantial effort into cajoling and tricking the students into the photo op.
There's like a week's worth of too much "this will be funny, let's try really hard to make it happen," and not enough "maybe comparing our students to monkeys is a bad idea." I feel like the money isn't about this specific incident, but about the school having its collective head so far up its collective ass that incidents like this can even happen. I bet there's a pervasive culture at the school where crap like this happens a lot, but mostly below the threshold of actually being able to build a case on. I bet that it's exactly the school's tolerance of "harmless" racism that gave these teachers the mistaken idea that this would fly. |
10th January 2020, 08:44 AM | #42 |
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Originally Posted by New York Post
That article is two days old. Not sure if the teacher is still teaching, or what. |
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10th January 2020, 09:05 AM | #43 |
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There are compensatory damages, and obviously people are entitled to those.
Punitive damages are a particularly US phenomenon. Punishment is really a matter for a criminal court not a civil court. By definition punitive damages are meant to punish the transgressor not award the claimant. The reason why rewards are so high in many US civil cases are punitive damages that are often out of proportion to the actual damage done. Arguably the benefit of punitive damages would be as great if the money was used to some social benefit, e.g. damages in this case given to a charity that promotes / subsidises anti-racist educational materials. That at least would mean that money people had paid and voted to be spent on children's education was at least being used to some educational benefit. ETA The school board budget is about $250,000,000, so the costs if awarded in full is about 5% of the total budget, not an unsubstantial amount when we hear schools and teachers in the public sector are struggling. The children most likely to be affected are the poorest and most deprived by any cuts. Roughly $4 million will go to lawyers, that leaves $2 million per child . More than the US pays out for wrongful killing. I do not believe that however hurtful this was it will have done $millions in harm. Also I am not sure that having a prolonged court case won't actually increase any harm, it does not seem likely to be a healing process. I accept that this is a negotiating position and the likely outcome will be an out of court settlement for considerably less. |
10th January 2020, 09:12 AM | #44 |
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Originally Posted by Newsday
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10th January 2020, 09:44 AM | #45 |
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To further that, I don't even see why those slides could have reasonably been used in the first place. It looks like it was supposed to be a lecture about zoology, so why include posed pictures of students with a caption that could easily be seen as offensive? I've seen plenty of jokes in presentations, that's one thing - hell, I've even been in multiple primatology lectures that have included joke slides featuring humans and apes showing the same behavior saying things like "monkey see, monkey do" and "not so different." That would have been fine, and there's clearly a point to that. That caption over a slide showing students interacting with the gorillas in some way might even have been understandable (in the Fruedian slip way you're talking about). This doesn't appear to be anything like that, it's just black students thrown in with slides about primates, and with a caption indicating some relation. I have no idea why the teacher thought going through the effort of having the kids pose, making the slide, and including it in a lecture was a good idea.
At best, those teachers were just so stupid and unaware it's kind of baffling. I have no idea if they're racists or not, and it doesn't really matter. They did a dumb, unnecessary thing that played directly into well-known racist tropes and caused offense as a result. Calling that out is fully warranted, and I don't see why a teacher who cares about his students wouldn't realize he made a mistake, acknowledge that, and try to do better at the very least. |
10th January 2020, 09:58 AM | #46 |
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It looks like the pre-Christmas slideshow is a tradition at this school and poking fun at students is part of that slideshow tradition...
Originally Posted by Newsday
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Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot. |
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10th January 2020, 10:04 AM | #47 |
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"It's not racist because we're making fun of everyone" isn't a thing.
Neither is "I can't be racist because 'I don't see race.'" |
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10th January 2020, 10:19 AM | #48 |
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10th January 2020, 10:23 AM | #49 |
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10th January 2020, 10:30 AM | #50 |
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No, I meant what I wrote, because that's exactly the defense used in that quote in post 46. That guy didn't say anything about knowing black people that weren't offended, just that he has black relatives (as kind of a weird non sequitur that reminds me a lot of "I can't be racist because I have a black friend") and doesn't think the captions were racist. Your version is more common, and equally invalid as a defense, but I didn't want to put words in that guy's mouth.
But yeah, I think the main point here is the effort and intent, which is pretty damning. |
10th January 2020, 12:27 PM | #51 |
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I can actually believe this. They may have done a similar pose and caption with many students over the years of varying race, gender and sexuality. It just happened that they did it this year with four black males. Teachers should be more sensitive to these issues and this should not have happened but I can see if they have done something similar in previous years with no complaint how they ended up doing something stupid.
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10th January 2020, 12:32 PM | #52 |
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10th January 2020, 12:41 PM | #53 |
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You see, your attitude, well meaning as it might be, is the type that allows this kind of crap to continue to happen. What you are suggesting here is targeting of the person who actually did this, and giving the school district a slap on the hand with a wet tram ticket, and on so doing, failing to address culture in the school district that allowed this to happen. People don't usually commit this kind of racist action out of the blue or in a vacuum. There are certain to have been earlier indications that this teacher was a racist, and they should have been weeded beforehand.
As judge, and assuming that what has been alleged here is the truth, my judgement would be for the whole $12m as asked, awarding the four students $20K each, and the balance of the judgement to go to a charity involved in education against racism such as the Southern Poverty Law Centre. Hit racist organisations where it hurts the most, the bottom line, and send out a warning to other such organisations that this kind of thing will not be tolerated. |
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10th January 2020, 12:56 PM | #54 |
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10th January 2020, 01:08 PM | #55 |
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10th January 2020, 01:39 PM | #56 |
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Those boys and their parents might strongly disagree with your distribution of payout. They may feel that they need to become sudden millionaires in order to repair their personal harm.
$20K to the charity and the rest to the boys. Otherwise, your suggestion could look like someone snatching away a winning lottery ticket. |
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Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot. |
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10th January 2020, 01:46 PM | #57 |
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10th January 2020, 01:55 PM | #58 |
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If you're not a scientist but you think you've destroyed the foundation of a vast scientific edifice with 10 minutes of Googling, you might want to consider the possibility that you're wrong. Its TRE45ON season... convict the F45CIST!! |
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10th January 2020, 02:04 PM | #59 |
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There is no sarcasm.
I imagine these boys laying in bed each night waiting to fall asleep. I imagine them thinking about becoming sudden millionaires and what they will spend it on. But then I think maybe they don't think about that at all and instead all they can think of is the horror of Monkey Do. Even a brand new Lamborghini cannot erase the horror of Monkey Do. |
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Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot. |
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10th January 2020, 02:07 PM | #60 |
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"Black people should be happy people are racist to them because they can make big money off of race based lawsuits."
That's a new one. |
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10th January 2020, 02:09 PM | #61 |
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Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot. |
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10th January 2020, 02:27 PM | #62 |
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10th January 2020, 02:31 PM | #63 |
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I’ve seen this idea of “No problem about the racism, they are going to get money later. They come out as big winners!” in this Forum before.
Well, I don’t go through my day hoping someone will subject me to a deeply humiliating public racist experience in front of my friends, peers, teachers, and community so that I may be able to obtain some money in a lawsuit later. As Mark Twain is claimed to have written of having been tarred and feathered and ridden of of town on a rail, “If not for the honor of the thing I’d rather not have done it.” Personally I doubt the money would overcome the disgust and awfulness of the experience itself. Am I unusual in this? |
10th January 2020, 02:36 PM | #64 |
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Again if I may.... *dramatic pause* add on to my strawman the kids are almost certainly not going to see 12 million dollars.
The whole "Oh they are only after the money" angle is just another layer of racism, basically telling black people "Jeez you guys can't even be victims right." |
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10th January 2020, 02:39 PM | #65 |
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A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill |
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10th January 2020, 02:39 PM | #66 |
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I strongly doubt that they didn’t realize it. But if they didn’t then they were so stupid and so ignorant of such a well known racist meme that they have no right to teach and mentor students. People involved in teaching are responsible for understanding and countering racism, sexism, etc. to be able to appropriately help their students.
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10th January 2020, 03:13 PM | #67 |
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Originally Posted by ABC 7 News
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Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot. |
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10th January 2020, 03:17 PM | #68 |
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Originally Posted by ABC 7 News
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Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot. |
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10th January 2020, 03:30 PM | #69 |
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Originally Posted by Newsday
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Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot. |
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10th January 2020, 04:02 PM | #70 |
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"Mary, we know you're a good teacher, and your heart is in the right place. But it's recently come to our attention that you have not noticed that some of your students are black. Now, this kind of cognitive lapse would disqualify you from most jobs, but you're a teacher. So please try to think about your students a little bit more. Thanks! "
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10th January 2020, 04:34 PM | #71 |
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10th January 2020, 04:39 PM | #72 |
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A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill |
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10th January 2020, 04:44 PM | #73 |
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Normal is just a stereotype. |
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10th January 2020, 04:50 PM | #74 |
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It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871) |
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10th January 2020, 04:55 PM | #75 |
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10th January 2020, 05:17 PM | #76 |
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It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871) |
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10th January 2020, 05:18 PM | #77 |
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I'd also note that most Civil Trials in the US are determined by Juries, not Judges.
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It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871) |
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10th January 2020, 05:34 PM | #78 |
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Monkey see, monkey do is an old saying for everyone.
People need to give this crap a rest. |
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10th January 2020, 05:36 PM | #79 |
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10th January 2020, 05:41 PM | #80 |
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