|
Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today. |
6th May 2020, 06:37 AM | #1 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 35,043
|
Jogging in Georgia while black.
A black man, Ahmaud Arbery, was shot dead while out for a jog in Georgia after being confronted by two armed white men attempting a citizen's arrest.
The two white men set up a roadblock with their truck and confronted the unarmed Arbery. In the brief exchange, Arbery struggled with one of the men over a shotgun, and was shot dead. local GA law enforcement ruled this an acceptable case of self defense, despite little to no evidence that Arbery was doing anything suspicious that would justify armed men attempting to apprehend him. Public outcry, including from Joe Biden, has lead to the case being sent over to the Grand Jury for possible indictment. CNN managed to get their hands on video of the incident and it's hard to see this as anything but a broad-daylight murder. https://edition.cnn.com/2020/05/05/u...m_source=twCNN
Quote:
One of the killers is a former police officer. |
__________________
Previously known as SuburbanTurkey |
|
6th May 2020, 06:43 AM | #2 |
Featherless biped
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Aporia
Posts: 26,431
|
Like a trip through Taliban controlled Afghanistan or something.
|
6th May 2020, 07:30 AM | #3 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 19,539
|
"white roads"?!
|
__________________
/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
|
6th May 2020, 07:31 AM | #4 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 2,688
|
The most enjoyable part of being a member of ISF is watching the "OMG-America-is-so-racist" social justice mob fall for stories like this without being the least bit skeptical before they work themselves into a frenzy and step directly on the rake laid out in front of them and get whacked right in the face.
Never gets old. |
6th May 2020, 07:34 AM | #5 |
Self Employed
Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 46,649
|
So your argument is the video is some sort of deep fake?
A truck load of people saw the black guy choking while jogging so they all jumped out and try to all perform the heimlich on him at once? What exactly, and please be precise (precise, no vaguary about "waiting to here the whole story" unless you're willing to present a version of this story that isn't insane), are you "skeptical" about? |
__________________
"If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong. |
|
6th May 2020, 07:44 AM | #6 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Puget Sound
Posts: 17,528
|
|
__________________
To survive election season on a skeptics forum, one must understand Hymie-the-Robot.
|
|
6th May 2020, 07:58 AM | #7 |
Philosopher
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 8,276
|
|
__________________
"There is a cult of ignorance in the United States...nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'" - Isaac Asimov |
|
6th May 2020, 08:18 AM | #8 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 21,398
|
|
__________________
Gunter Haas, the 'leading British expert,' was a graphologist who advised couples, based on their handwriting characteristics, if they were compatible for marriage. I would submit that couples idiotic enough to do this are probably quite suitable for each other. It's nice when stupid people find love. - Ludovic Kennedy |
|
6th May 2020, 08:20 AM | #9 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 21,398
|
|
__________________
Gunter Haas, the 'leading British expert,' was a graphologist who advised couples, based on their handwriting characteristics, if they were compatible for marriage. I would submit that couples idiotic enough to do this are probably quite suitable for each other. It's nice when stupid people find love. - Ludovic Kennedy |
|
6th May 2020, 08:22 AM | #10 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 35,043
|
Some editorializing from your's truly.
I'm taking the liberty to assume "random black guy that fits the description of some dubious burglary suspect" really means "black guy in the wrong neighborhood". The verbatim quote from the 911 call is "He's a black man running down our road". |
__________________
Previously known as SuburbanTurkey |
|
6th May 2020, 08:23 AM | #11 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 21,398
|
Now, what I learned in high school civics class is that a citizen's arrest can only be made when there is a felony in progress. You can absolutely apprehend a burgler who is robbing a bank or robbing your house.
Citizen arrests cannot be made for misdemeanors (so when Barney Fife taught Gomer Pyle that he could do a citizen's arrest for a traffic violation, that was incorrect). So the question is, what felony was this person committing that warranted a citizen's arrest? |
__________________
Gunter Haas, the 'leading British expert,' was a graphologist who advised couples, based on their handwriting characteristics, if they were compatible for marriage. I would submit that couples idiotic enough to do this are probably quite suitable for each other. It's nice when stupid people find love. - Ludovic Kennedy |
|
6th May 2020, 08:23 AM | #12 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: WA USA
Posts: 10,927
|
There is a video at this link, but it will not play for me. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ahmaud-...hooting-video/
Ranb |
6th May 2020, 08:30 AM | #13 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 35,043
|
The claim of the killers is that this man matches the description of a suspicious person (potential burglar) seen on previous nights.
Even if you grant their extremely dubious claim, there is no evidence that Arbery was committing a crime or fleeing a crime scene at the time of the killing. DA's opinion on the matter: https://int.nyt.com/data/documenthel...ull.pdf#page=1 The DA's decision not to prosecute gives the two killers an absurdly generous reading of what constitutes probable cause for a citizen's arrest. I see no mention of any evidence that Arbery was fleeing a crime other than the killer's claim that he matches the description of a suspicious person from a previous event. |
__________________
Previously known as SuburbanTurkey |
|
6th May 2020, 08:33 AM | #14 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Where the Arrantly Roam
Posts: 26,169
|
For those who didn't see the vid or have trouble loading CNN on mobile:
No one says anything about 'white road's. The video is filmed by someone else chasing down the action. I would think this shows that there was some run up prior to the shooting (do you typically film while driving down roads?) The truck is stopped in the road and the jogger, Arbery in white shirt, is running up from behind it. Jethro with the shotgun is outside, in the front of the truck, drivers side. Arbery veers around to the passenger side, still running, then runs over to grab Jethro with the gun. That's probably where the self defense angle comes from. Although I can't imagine what interpretation of Georgia law allows Jethro to be in the street with a loaded shotgun. Would have to be equally self defense for Arbery, no? Hillbilly accosting you with a shotgun in the street should put a brother in fear of imminent grave harm, yes? |
__________________
"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" -Mark Twain "Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet |
|
6th May 2020, 08:40 AM | #15 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 35,043
|
"White roads" is my editorializing. Sorry that was unclear.
GA has a citizens arrest law, but it is pretty clearly limited to those fleeing a crime scene witnessed by the people trying to apprehend. I can't see how this black man matching the description of a suspicious person from a previous night meets this requirement. |
__________________
Previously known as SuburbanTurkey |
|
6th May 2020, 08:52 AM | #16 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Where the Arrantly Roam
Posts: 26,169
|
Even via citizen's arrest, no felony was taking place. Just wandering around with a shotgun on the streets or even in the car strikes me as surely illegal? CCW for a handgun is one thing, but this seems like a whole nuther level. Cel not cooperating to Google Ga law.
|
__________________
"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" -Mark Twain "Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet |
|
6th May 2020, 09:08 AM | #17 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 35,043
|
The DA's analysis goes roughly like this:
1) They were lawful to pursue and apprehend because of the citizens arrest law (biggest whopper, IMO) 2) Open carry of long guns is legal. (no mention that open carrying does not allow brandishing, which this clearly was) 3) Self defense with no duty to retreat is legal, so it was acceptable to shoot once the scuffle for the shotgun started. (Arbery has the much stronger self-defense claim) The DA is bending over backwards to grant these people the benefit of these laws. Trying to apprehend someone that you think matches the description from a previous crime does not meet the reasonable standard of the citizens arrest. There is no reporting that Arbery was witnessed committing a crime on the day of the shooting, he was out for a jog. Calling this a hot pursuit of someone fleeing a crime, as the DA does, is absurd on its face. Blocking the road and displaying firearms is obviously not open carry, but brandishing. They were chasing him, displaying firearms, and demanding Arbery surrender himself to their custody. Arbery was within his lawful right to interpret this is a lethal threat and fight with any means available to him. |
__________________
Previously known as SuburbanTurkey |
|
6th May 2020, 09:17 AM | #18 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Where the Arrantly Roam
Posts: 26,169
|
Yeah, that's pretty much how I see it too. I think it likely that the rednecks did think Arbery matched the description of a previously reported 'suspicious person' though. Makes more sense than randomly attacking joggers. Still not justified by a long shot, but a little different than being on a 'white road'.
Really want to know who was filming and why. Jumping in the car and running video indicates there was a previous interaction with enough time passed to do that. Friend of the hillbillies that knew what was coming? Bystander who witnessed some previous exchange? |
__________________
"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" -Mark Twain "Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet |
|
6th May 2020, 09:20 AM | #19 |
Self Employed
Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 46,649
|
It's gonna be the "LOL I went into the wrong apartment, oopsie daisy then I feared for my life" argument again.
|
__________________
"If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong. |
|
6th May 2020, 09:25 AM | #20 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 35,043
|
My comment about "white road" comes from a quote from the 911 call.
The dispatcher asked what Arbery was doing to be warrant apprehension, and the response was "He's a black guy running down our road". This guy was a former cop, he has enough sense to write up the report so that it has some veneer of legitimacy. I have a feeling that once we scratch the surface, much more nefarious motives will be revealed. |
__________________
Previously known as SuburbanTurkey |
|
6th May 2020, 09:32 AM | #21 |
Poisoned Waffles
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 68,744
|
|
__________________
You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara. |
|
6th May 2020, 09:35 AM | #22 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 35,043
|
|
__________________
Previously known as SuburbanTurkey |
|
6th May 2020, 09:40 AM | #23 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy
Posts: 36,113
|
I have also not seen the video, but a report I read says that the video pretty unequivocally shows that a shot was fired before the altercation in which the man was then murdered.
It is this initial shot at the jogger while he was jogging that changes this case from an arrest gone wrong to an outright murder, if not a lynching. The first report I saw of this suggested that there would be no prosecution, but I see from the one cited here that this case will now be sent to a grand jury. Thank goodness for eyewitness videos to counteract the outright lies of the police. I think Bogative is all wet here. There is plenty of evidence that this was an unlawful act on the part of the shooters, that the victim was innocent, and that the police initially lied about the incident. Even if you can't see the video, others surely have, including, apparently, Georgia television viewers. The decision of the DA to prosecute, and the Governor to provide resources, should, I think, be given due weight. |
__________________
Like many humorless and indignant people, he is hard on everybody but himself, and does not perceive it when he fails his own ideal (Molière) A pedant is a man who studies a vacuum through instruments that allow him to draw cross-sections of the details (John Ciardi) |
|
6th May 2020, 09:41 AM | #24 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Where the Arrantly Roam
Posts: 26,169
|
Not busting your chops about 'white road's. You know how a small editorializing can shift a narrative. It's not like they made such a claim, which would be shocking to say the least.
I'm inclined to think this was an ex cop who still thought he was a cop. I'd also like to know what this description was that Arbery was said to match. 'Big black guy', maybe? Not remotely good enough to start brandishing shotguns. Sounds like an ex cop who thinks black guy's are second class citizens who are all 'suspects' till proven not shot. |
__________________
"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" -Mark Twain "Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet |
|
6th May 2020, 09:44 AM | #25 |
Self Employed
Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 46,649
|
The "I feared for my life" card is legit in some (perhaps many or even most) context. I'm fully on team "It's better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6."
But you can't put yourself, either intentionally or through your own stupidity/ignorance, into situations where people are going to reasonably react to your actions and then pull the "I feared for my life" card on their reasonable reactions. Someone is going to react to a pump of people jumping out of their truck and dogpiling them while they are out going for a job. You cannot use that response (at least soley) for the "OMG I feared for my life" excuse. Otherwise white people are just going to keep screwing with black people and when black people get angry for being screwed it, killing them because their anger made them "fear for their life." |
__________________
"If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong. |
|
6th May 2020, 09:45 AM | #26 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 35,043
|
I've watched the video. As Arbery runs past the armed roadblock, the driver with the shotgun approaches him and Arbery turns sharply and charges him to wrestle over the shotgun.
I think it's still murder regardless of whether the man only shot after Arbery attacked him. They set up an armed roadblock and were brandishing firearms while demanding he stop. Arbery has a clear self-defense claim as an unarmed man on foot being chased by armed men in a truck. Arbery would have been justified to kill both of them had he the means. In a better world, he would have successfully wrestled the shotgun away and killed them both. |
__________________
Previously known as SuburbanTurkey |
|
6th May 2020, 09:45 AM | #27 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 1,145
|
|
6th May 2020, 09:53 AM | #28 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy
Posts: 36,113
|
You may be technically right that they did not say "white roads," but it might depend a little on whether "our road" has any blacks on it. If an unidentified black man, labelled by his blackness, is considered an invader on "our road" it is pretty obvious that "our road" is not one frequented by black people.
I know you sometimes consider non-racist as the default position unless there's other proof, a position that's often unpopular and sometimes right, but I think in this case it's reasonable to presume the reverse. |
__________________
Like many humorless and indignant people, he is hard on everybody but himself, and does not perceive it when he fails his own ideal (Molière) A pedant is a man who studies a vacuum through instruments that allow him to draw cross-sections of the details (John Ciardi) |
|
6th May 2020, 09:53 AM | #29 |
Self Employed
Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 46,649
|
|
__________________
"If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong. |
|
6th May 2020, 09:55 AM | #30 |
Seeking Honesty and Sanity
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Charleston, WV
Posts: 14,588
|
Quite so.
I have found the rationale goes along like this: I made a mistake in thinking that the guy I killed was actually a guy that was going to kill/hurt me. As a result, I killed him before he could possibly demonstrate his innocence because when I killed him I was still thinking that going to kill/hurt me. Therefore, this is clear case of self-defense because when I killed him, I really did think that he was going to kill/hurt me. I do not know how people get away with this crap, but they do all the time. |
__________________
A man's best friend is his dogma. |
|
6th May 2020, 10:02 AM | #31 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Where the Arrantly Roam
Posts: 26,169
|
As Ron Obvious noted above, there is a world of difference.
'On our road, the one on which we live, we haven't seen a black man in 50 years, except for a recently reported burglary suspect' is quite a bit different from 'This is a white road, where we gun down darkies' The rednecks are in the wrong either way, but very different in motivations. The devil is in the spin. |
__________________
"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" -Mark Twain "Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet |
|
6th May 2020, 10:10 AM | #32 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 35,043
|
Really splitting the racism hair here. Arbery is black, and since we live in a neighborhood with only white folk, he must be the same black man we suspect is committing crimes in the area. Even if these guys aren't klan members, clearly they were making some assumptions about Arbery based on him being a black man. These assumptions, combined with their DIY approach to law enforcement, lead to his death.
I have a feeling that Arbery matched the description of the suspect in the same way that all young black men fit the description of the suspect. |
__________________
Previously known as SuburbanTurkey |
|
6th May 2020, 10:15 AM | #33 |
Banned
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 22,789
|
How is one supposed to make a citizens arrest if the person doesn't stop?
|
6th May 2020, 10:22 AM | #34 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Where the Arrantly Roam
Posts: 26,169
|
Why is someone supposed to make a citizens arrest in the absence of a crime?
Could an actual cop have arrested Arbery for anything? No crime = no cause for arrest, citizen or LEO. The rednecks waved their guns around. Arbery took a run at shotgun boy. This was not ending well in any scenario. |
__________________
"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" -Mark Twain "Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet |
|
6th May 2020, 10:25 AM | #35 |
Banned
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 22,789
|
|
6th May 2020, 10:28 AM | #36 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 35,043
|
|
__________________
Previously known as SuburbanTurkey |
|
6th May 2020, 10:35 AM | #37 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 32,124
|
|
__________________
I don't trust atoms. They make up everything. |
|
6th May 2020, 10:37 AM | #38 |
Self Employed
Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 46,649
|
"I came home and found this person breaking into my house, I'm going to hold him until the police come" is one thing.
"Somebody broke into my house so and my neighbor said the guy was looked like this one guy so I went to this one guys house with a shotgun to arrest him" is a whole 'other. And even the first one is questionable. |
__________________
"If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong. |
|
6th May 2020, 10:43 AM | #39 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 35,043
|
According to the statement given to the responding police officer, they claimed to recognize Arbery from a security camera footage of previous nighttime break-ins.
There is no indication that anyone thought that Arbery was fleeing a fresh crime. They spotted him running down the road and thought it was their guy from "the other night" and gave chase. The police record: https://int.nyt.com/data/documenthel...mized/full.pdf I can't see how this meets the requirements for citizens arrest. They did not witness Arbery committing a crime when they decided to chase him. |
__________________
Previously known as SuburbanTurkey |
|
6th May 2020, 11:01 AM | #40 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Port Townsend, Washington
Posts: 39,057
|
|
__________________
Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant. |
|
Thread Tools | |
|
|