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6th May 2020, 11:24 AM | #41 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Fox News has the video. It is rather disturbing. https://www.foxnews.com/us/georgia-g...-ahmaud-arbery
By itself it appears to show the jogger trying to evade then defend himself against the man with the shotgun. |
6th May 2020, 11:24 AM | #42 |
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Regardless of the law, we're seeing the nasty side of prosecutorial discretion. Hopefully the grand jury doesn't take the same absurdly generous reading of the law.
If the case can get yanked out of the good-ole-boy network and into a proper court, these guys are going to jail. Here's to hope! |
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6th May 2020, 11:36 AM | #43 |
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6th May 2020, 11:39 AM | #44 |
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6th May 2020, 11:41 AM | #45 |
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6th May 2020, 11:53 AM | #46 |
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6th May 2020, 11:54 AM | #47 |
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Gunter Haas, the 'leading British expert,' was a graphologist who advised couples, based on their handwriting characteristics, if they were compatible for marriage. I would submit that couples idiotic enough to do this are probably quite suitable for each other. It's nice when stupid people find love. - Ludovic Kennedy |
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6th May 2020, 12:08 PM | #48 |
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That's a mighty thin spin, and I do not think there is a great difference in motivation shown by the way it's said. The presumption that no black man in the neighborhood could be anyone but an unidentified burglar is still racist. We have only sketchy information thus far to know if there is any ground for the presumption that the actual burglar was black. You can bet dollars to donuts that these people could never claim justification for shooting an unidentified white jogger from their truck even if there were confirmation that a white burglar had been spotted. If you can justify shooting a black man because he is in "our street," that is a pretty dramatic way of announcing that this is not a street where blacks may safely go, and that, I think, is equivalent to saying it's a white street.
e.t.a. that's true even if there are a few blacks tolerated. If a black person has to get permission or clearance to use a road, which white people do not, then it is a white road. You can say that in all sorts of different ways, including obfuscations and lies (not you Thermal, them), and that won't change it. |
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6th May 2020, 12:11 PM | #49 |
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Gunter Haas, the 'leading British expert,' was a graphologist who advised couples, based on their handwriting characteristics, if they were compatible for marriage. I would submit that couples idiotic enough to do this are probably quite suitable for each other. It's nice when stupid people find love. - Ludovic Kennedy |
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6th May 2020, 12:25 PM | #50 |
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Just for context the city of Brunswick is 59.8% black, the greater county of Glynn is 26.4% black, and the state of Georgia is 30.5% black.
So "Black guy jogging down the street" isn't exactly supercharged creeper riding a white unicorn level of "Rare Occurrence." |
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6th May 2020, 12:31 PM | #51 |
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I wouldn't assume based on those numbers that the city itself doesn't have pretty severe de-facto segregation in certain neighborhoods.
Edit: The street Arbery was killed on is in an expensive neighborhood called Satilla Shores. It's water-front properties with 300k and 400k homes, with a handful of more modest homes on less desirable properties. I'm going to put the odds of high racial diversity pretty low on this one. |
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6th May 2020, 12:56 PM | #52 |
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6th May 2020, 12:59 PM | #53 |
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6th May 2020, 12:59 PM | #54 |
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Interestingly, according to the police report, by the killers' own admission, Arbery originally ran another direction to evade them the first time they attempted to confront him with their weapons, and using their vehicles they chased him to another street and cut him off there, which is where the dashcam video picks up.
This man was essentially doomed the moment these psychopaths arbitrarily (or rather, not so arbitrarily) deemed him "suspicious" and decided to go after him with guns. Arbery tried to do the right thing and run, but they pointedly denied him this avenue of escape from the situation. |
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6th May 2020, 01:12 PM | #55 |
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6th May 2020, 01:18 PM | #56 |
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No see under properly manly laws this was one of those situations where no one did anything wrong and so the death is just one of those things that happens and no one is culpable for in any way. Like with the officer who got the wrong appartment if only he was armed and quicker on the draw he would also have been perfectly legal in killing them, but that doesn't mean anyone did anything wrong on either side.
Got to get in touch with the second amendment to understand this. |
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6th May 2020, 01:19 PM | #57 |
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6th May 2020, 01:19 PM | #58 |
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6th May 2020, 01:29 PM | #59 |
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Like many humorless and indignant people, he is hard on everybody but himself, and does not perceive it when he fails his own ideal (Molière) A pedant is a man who studies a vacuum through instruments that allow him to draw cross-sections of the details (John Ciardi) |
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6th May 2020, 01:50 PM | #60 |
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Yep, think about this.
A pair of white guys with shotguns chase after the black guy in a pickup. Keep in mind, he doesn't know why they are chasing him because he hasn't done anything wrong. And he is supposed to submit to their commands or get shot? What is the difference between this and racist rednecks on a ****** hunt? From appearances, it is indistinguishable. And, in real time, all he has is appearances. |
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Gunter Haas, the 'leading British expert,' was a graphologist who advised couples, based on their handwriting characteristics, if they were compatible for marriage. I would submit that couples idiotic enough to do this are probably quite suitable for each other. It's nice when stupid people find love. - Ludovic Kennedy |
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6th May 2020, 02:08 PM | #61 |
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6th May 2020, 02:08 PM | #62 |
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I must agree with Bogative here. We simply don't have all of the facts.
All that we know is that there was a confrontation, and the "victim" ran away, prompting at least two people with guns (unknown whether they already had the guns, or were retrieved after the first confrontation) to get into a pickup, and follow him, eventually blocking his path with their truck, with one getting out of the car while displaying a weapon. Also, prompting someone in a second car to follow while taking video of what was about to happen. At that point, we know that the runner attacked the man, who shot him. Or maybe his friend shot him from the bed of the pickup. That's all we know. Based on that, it could be first degree murder. It could be second degree murder. It could even be some variation on manslaughter. (That term is used in some states' laws, not in others.) And I couldn't tell whether all three shots were from the shotgun, or whether the handgun was also fired from the bed of the pickup truck. That could mean that there are possibly two people who could be guilty of homicide, or of assault, possibly assault with attempt to murder (colloquially referred to as "attempted murder"). It could have an additional element of a hate crime. There's so much we don't know. |
6th May 2020, 02:11 PM | #63 |
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That may be a verbatim quote from the family's lawyer, but in that lawyers tend to get into "editorializing" too, maybe you should actually investigate that.
Here, this might help. This article seems to have actual quotes from both of the 911 calls. https://thebrunswicknews.com/news/lo...dc8f879f8.html |
6th May 2020, 02:14 PM | #64 |
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According to a Guardian report, Arbery had been jogging this street for a long time. He was a regular and known for it.
Quote:
I have two questions: 1) Are the shooters also regulars in the area? Residents? If so, they would probably have known who Arbery was and why he was running. And this was just personal animus. If not, their story of "black guy running on our streets" indicates they were likely "trawling" the streets for any black guy to shoot. Also, hence the cam video from the "trailing" car. Again, what gives them that animus to do that sort of thing? 2) How did these guys know where he was running so they could "drive and cut him off"? Did they stake him out previously? Know his route? That suggests premeditation. They've been following him. Altogether, this is murder. |
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6th May 2020, 02:15 PM | #65 |
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So if you're throwing in with him, how about you answer the question that he still hasn't?
What facts are we waiting on exactly? Please give me a hypothetical set of scenarios that happened before this event, off camera of this event, or whatever that makes what happened in the video not terrible. And I want an answer, not a vague, glib allusion to some "We need to hear all the facts" truism. |
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6th May 2020, 02:26 PM | #66 |
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Joe, please try a little bit harder.
I said, we don't know all the facts, and then went on to say that it could be first degree murder, or second degree murder, or maybe manslaughter (emphasis added) or possibly a hate crime, and that we needed more facts to sort it out. I'm pretty sure plenty of other people figured out what I did there. |
6th May 2020, 02:31 PM | #67 |
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Most of the news reports I've read keep saying "two shots", when it's clear in the video there are 3 shots fired, the first happens nearly at the same time we see him go around the truck. We can't see what happened when the first shot is fired, but the other two can be seen, with the last being the fatal one. Was the first a shot in the air, to scare/stop him, or did the altercation somehow start as soon as the runner goes out of sight around the truck, and if so, who/what started it? It's all over in seconds, but we only see a fraction of that.
And, no, I'm not saying the gun toatin', truck drivin' idiots had the tiniest right to start this, at all, and clearly, if they hadn't, he'd still be alive. No defence there, but, as Meadmaker said, we are missing some key details. |
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6th May 2020, 02:54 PM | #68 |
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Here ya go. And tell me if it is too outlandish:
The hillbillies were right, and Arbery was in fact the burglar captured on video. The first time they tried to confront him, he took off running. The second time, there was a car following him. Remember the inexplicable car, that was following Arbery and captured the video? And who's occupants said nothing audible while witnessing a killing? Hillbilly boys see Arbery now charging down the street toward their parked truck, with a vehicle following. Say that (since you ask for a hypothetical) they recognize the car, or see that it is full of unfriendly faces, looking like Arbey has rounded up a posse and is charging them to bring trouble. Now our innocent jogger is still inexplicably running towards a man with a shotgun and diverts to the other side of the truck for cover and, without breaking his stride, attacks Jethro (there was no warning shot, btw. The first shot is when Arbery is in full charge, a couple feet away). How's that? Anything that doesn't fit? I'm not saying this happened, of course. But as skeptics, shouldn't we at least consider something besides the Murdering Racists narrative? How many threads before has it turned out the narrative was wrong? |
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6th May 2020, 03:00 PM | #69 |
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Ah the fan fiction begins....
Is Amber Guyger's lawyer still available? I mean he lost but he probably learned a lot. And the "Oh but maybe he was the burglar!?" started quicker then I thought. Okay sit down I've got some bad news, you can't execute black men in the street for crimes without a trial. So even if he was the burlgar it was still murder. 1st Degree Murder. I bet he smoked pot too. Quick someone find a Facebook photo where he's throwing up a gang sign! |
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6th May 2020, 03:03 PM | #70 |
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Your scenario seems to ignore the account we read above that Arbery was a regular jogger in the neighborhood, known to at least some of its residents, and that nobody else would have thought to figure out whether he was doing something else when he regularly, over the years, jogged by.'
It also seems to contradict multiple reports that the first shot was taken as he ran around the truck, from the truck. Was there another car behind Arbery full of hostile looking people? Or just another passer by with a camera? Would it be unusual or frightening for a car to be seen on a public highway? |
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Like many humorless and indignant people, he is hard on everybody but himself, and does not perceive it when he fails his own ideal (Molière) A pedant is a man who studies a vacuum through instruments that allow him to draw cross-sections of the details (John Ciardi) |
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6th May 2020, 03:04 PM | #71 |
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You asked for an hypothetical alternative narrative, Jackson. You can't complain when you got what you asked for.
Well, you can, but you look pretty stupid. What do you think is implausible? Or was your request for a hypothetical just bait? |
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"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" -Mark Twain "Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet |
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6th May 2020, 03:05 PM | #72 |
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Gunter Haas, the 'leading British expert,' was a graphologist who advised couples, based on their handwriting characteristics, if they were compatible for marriage. I would submit that couples idiotic enough to do this are probably quite suitable for each other. It's nice when stupid people find love. - Ludovic Kennedy |
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6th May 2020, 03:11 PM | #73 |
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What does some other residents recognizing them have to do with these guys? Or, looked at another way, who said the rednecks didn't recognize him as a regular jogger? Wouldn't that account for how he was recognized on surveillance video?
Quote:
Plus, JM asked for a hypothetical to complain about. I'm not advocating this. |
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"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" -Mark Twain "Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet |
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6th May 2020, 03:14 PM | #74 |
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Absolutely. And I would say nothing to deserve it.
I would also opine that if you see a truck barracading a road with armed hillbillies in Georgia... Don't run down the street towards them unarmed and attack them with your bare hands. Something predictably bad might happen. |
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"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" -Mark Twain "Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet |
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6th May 2020, 03:19 PM | #75 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Wow, so now it's his fault.
But then again, according to the report, he DID run away. And they chased after him. So you think that a black person being run down by a white guys carrying shotguns in a pickup truck should surrender to them. That's pretty disgusting, I have to say. |
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Gunter Haas, the 'leading British expert,' was a graphologist who advised couples, based on their handwriting characteristics, if they were compatible for marriage. I would submit that couples idiotic enough to do this are probably quite suitable for each other. It's nice when stupid people find love. - Ludovic Kennedy |
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6th May 2020, 03:26 PM | #76 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Try reading harder. The hillbillies confronted him twice. The first time he ran away. The second time he charged them. They were parked. He ran up to them and attacked. Would you do that? I wouldn't. Confronted witb armed nutjobs, and being unarmed, I would be cutting across some lawns to get away from them. As fast as I could. So you advocate charging at armed crazies? Do tell. |
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6th May 2020, 03:27 PM | #77 |
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6th May 2020, 03:31 PM | #78 |
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There's no evidence that the rednecks in question correlated the jogger, let alone a jogger they knew, with any surveillance video, is there?
A road, a street, a public highway. Yes a road that is open to the public who drive on it. Do people going into the neighborhood normally fly? Even if it's a quiet residential street a person would have to be insane to be surprised at the presence of a car on it. No, I don't film things going on ahead of me when I drive, but many people do, especially if they see something odd. In some places dashcams are a routine item that is always kept on. It's a far more believable scenario than the idea that the person in the car was some sort of accomplice. And, of course, if the rednecks had actually recognized a known individual on a surveillance video, it was really really stupid and wrong for them to get in a truck and go gunning for him when they could just have called the cops and said they knew who the culprit was. And (just to cover a following text) I don't think the jogger did run to the truck and attack someone with his bare hands. He ran around the truck, and the occupants then chased him. Accounts have the attack occurring outside of the truck, after the jogger had run around it. While trying to imagine how things go, I would suppose that in Georgia a pickup truck full of people (I don't know for sure if they also looked like threatening rednecks) is probably pretty common. So I would suspect that the idea that one should turn around and run away when one sees a pickup truck is race-specific. We're getting dangerously near to the invocation of a unique ******-code (I presume the auto censor will edit that first word out), in which it's the fault of certain folks if they forget their special place in society. Given the sad state of the world, I suppose you can say it's their mistake, but that is far far different from saying it's their fault, and until that difference is recognized improvement will be slow and painful. |
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Like many humorless and indignant people, he is hard on everybody but himself, and does not perceive it when he fails his own ideal (Molière) A pedant is a man who studies a vacuum through instruments that allow him to draw cross-sections of the details (John Ciardi) |
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6th May 2020, 03:36 PM | #79 |
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6th May 2020, 03:36 PM | #80 |
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You're talking to a dedicated contrarian. If you haven't deduced it yet from his characterizing Arbery's self-evidently trying to run around and past the truck as "charging" the gunman who at that moment was in the middle of the road on the opposite side of the truck, Thermal is arguing in bad faith. At least keep that in mind if you insist on trying to engage him.
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