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7th May 2020, 09:04 AM | #201 |
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He was clearly acting in concert with the shooter. They clearly combined in an unlawful assault, in that he repeatedly drove the pickup truck to a position where they could make a credible and immediate threat to life. The outcome of that assault was the death of their victim. I can see no reasonable construction of events in which the driver is not guilty of a crime, and since the predictable result of that crime was the death of the victim, I can see no reasonable way in which he was not guilty of homicide.
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7th May 2020, 09:04 AM | #202 |
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7th May 2020, 09:08 AM | #203 |
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This post may get buried in the thread, but I wanted to thank you for posting the above. The curiosity I had was "what if Arbery HAD been the one on video - would trying to citizen's arrest him after the fact at gunpoint have been legal?". Sounds like the answer is a pretty clear cut "NO".
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7th May 2020, 09:08 AM | #204 |
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Thermal, perhaps people are being a bit reactive to your tactics discussion because very similar argument are being made by the killer's defenders (including local law enforcement) that Arbery's unarmed attack justified the killing.
"he shouldn't have attacked an armed man" is a sentiment that can mean many different things. Your "Shouldn't" might mean it was a bad tactical decision. The defenders of the killers are saying "shouldn't" means it was unlawful for Arbery to grab the shotgun and fight. Sure, trying to wrestle away the shotgun was a move with poor chance of success. Obviously this is true, the dude is dead from a shotgun blast. Surely you can see how tedious commenting about his tactics muddies the water here. |
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7th May 2020, 09:17 AM | #205 |
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X2
(crap... that was the wrong place to put "x2". I thought I was right after my own "placeholder" post. Oops. ) Bob I thought I'd see if anyone replied in the intervening ~30 posts... they didn't. I understand the national standard for a CA is immediate pursuit of or in the company of a witness of, a suspect of a felony. No legit felony CA... then brandishing applies. Change my mind... O Socratic defender of the Harvard Debate Society Way (tm). |
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7th May 2020, 09:18 AM | #206 |
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For the same reasons we analyze RFK's murder, or John Lennon's, or President Kennedy's, or Eric Garner's (another one for your lie collection, btw, that cop MURDERED Garner): discussing the variables that could have produced a better outcome.
Arbery's killing might show us how a tactical move failed, and why, but only as a sidebar to the main issue which is: ARBERY WAS A VICTIM OF ARMED PSYCHO REDNECKS WHO THOUGHT THEY HAD LICENSE TO KILL Please tell me you've kicked it out of screensaver and understand it now? No more lies and strawmen? Pretty please? |
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7th May 2020, 09:26 AM | #207 |
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If their intent was to shoot him, then getting the shotgun away from the person holding it would have been his only chance. I don't think that's what I would have done in that situation, but I can see why he might have done it. OTOH, I've never had strangers point guns at me while I was minding my own business, so I can't say for sure what I would do in the heat of the moment. Certainly in a calm calculation, I would favor trying to talk them out of killing me over making a desperate grab for the shotgun, but calm calculation is not likely what I would do if somebody suddenly blocks my path and starts waving fierearms around.
In any case, it's a complete perversion of the concept of self defense to claim the shooting was justified, when they, with no good reason, forced him to fight for his life. "We thought he looked like burglar" might be a "reasonable articulable suspicion" that would justify a real cop to stop, ID, and maybe frisk him, with weapon holstered unless the subject gets violent, but for an ex-cop who apparently forgot he was ex- who brandished a weapon and killed the guy when he tried to protect himself, it should be reason for him never to see the outside of a prison cell until he dies. |
7th May 2020, 09:26 AM | #208 |
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I think we're getting caught in a trap here, of post-event analysis.
Of course, whenever a terrible thing happens, we can look back on it and say "he should have done something different." We now know things we did not or could not know then. We're like the audience at a horror movie, yelling at the screen "No, don't open that door!" Thieves came and stole my TV. I should have put better bars on the window. I should have had a different TV. I shouldn't have this or should have that. And of course, in some sense that's true. In some irrelevant, red-herring way, whenever a crime is committed, there's something we can point to afterward that redistributes the responsibility. But when a crime is committed, it's the criminal who does it. When a bunch of yahoos in a pickup truck accost a jogger and kill him, it's their fault. All of it is their fault. When we look at the video and see what happened, and see what might have been done, it's useful to plan for our own future, but if we use it to evaluate the event itself, we are diving into a morass of moral equivocation and speculation and critique of inferred attitude, which at best is useless and at worst results in accusations, real or not, that we make victims the authors of their demise. |
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7th May 2020, 09:33 AM | #209 |
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It shouldn't have gone on for more than a brief comment or two. It went on and became 'tedious' because of others lying about the content/intent the posts.
Which, going meta, is the ISF Cluster **** Conundrum. Posters see a story like this and polarize to pro-killer and anti-killer standpoints. There's no reason for that in, of all places, a skeptics forum. I would expect a bunch of adults who value critical thinking could elevate themselves above Twitter discussion and look at multiple angles dispassionately. I take an interest in self defense and fighting strategies, and am always interested in real-time testing. Here, it falls with something I've always advocated: don't rush a group of armed nuts when unarmed. There is a good time to run like hell to the sides, and this was one. We are not bulletproof. |
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7th May 2020, 09:38 AM | #210 |
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Barring new evidence that changes things radically, I don't see how this is less than second degree murder for the shooter, with felony murder (if that is a thing in Georgia) charges for all participants, or assault charges at the least. Whether racially motivated or not (but I would bet a substantial amount that it was racially motivated), this was an assault with a deadly weapon that resulted in a homicide. This is behavior that ought to result in felony convictions and long prison sentences.
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7th May 2020, 09:38 AM | #211 |
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You know what really would be a good self defense and fighting strategy? If no one had picked up their guns and gone out to chase a jogger. His not leaving the road might point to him not being the trespasser, no? But maybe all black men look the same to them.
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7th May 2020, 09:41 AM | #212 |
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We aren't allowed to criticize the two white people's shotgun handling technique (which, apropos of nothing, was garbage. Dude didn't even had it set in his shoulder good. My instructor in Afghanistan would have bit my head off for handling a long arm that way) only the black guy's defense strategy.
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7th May 2020, 09:44 AM | #213 |
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7th May 2020, 09:45 AM | #214 |
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7th May 2020, 09:49 AM | #215 |
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7th May 2020, 09:50 AM | #216 |
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This was the second time they had tried to stop him. According to the police report, a previous attempt to block him in resulted in him turning back and running off. Fighting wasn't his first resort here.
I think the clip of the man taking aim with the shotgun changes things. Arbery doesn't veer into the shoulder until the man trains the gun on him. Coming around the other side he finds the armed man has re-positioned to head him off and he makes a snap decision. The last moments of the chase were very chaotic. I wouldn't blame Arbery for having poor presence of mind at the moment. |
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7th May 2020, 09:54 AM | #217 |
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They should, and have, been roundly criticized for having guns out AT ALL. Georgia law regarding citizens arrest has been criticized, as well.
Oh, and Re: earlier, your 100% consistent thing; I remembered one more. Drejka in Florida. He MURDERED that black man, no questions or qualifiers, and should rot in prison. Glad he is there. And agreed, gun handling for all the well armed killers was a joke. Waving guns around is different from being an efficient killer. And again, it took a lot of cojones for Arbery to rush them. |
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7th May 2020, 10:00 AM | #218 |
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I would agree that he shouldn't have been tresspassing (assuming that the whole tresspassing story wasn't made up by the killers after the fact).
But I will also say that the reason this became a murder, is that some redneck morons decided to respond to his trespassing by waving guns around. Racist? Maybe, maybe not. Assault with a deadly weapon and murder? Definitely. |
7th May 2020, 10:03 AM | #219 |
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Hard for me to picture guys standing in the road with guns (I live in a no carry state). Just seeing a firearm in public would likely have me diving for cover, not continuing to run and waiting to see if he put me in his sights.
But with that 20/20 hindsight, 2 or three weapons in sight and me empty handed...i dunno. Can't see doing anything but running hard and fast to the sides as a best possible chance. The police report was filled out via testimony of the killers. Not sure how objectively we should take it. They could have been self serving in presenting the run up. IIRC, they claimed two shots were fired during the struggle, but we know it was three. Also, still curious why the video recording buddy posted the footage. Conscience got the better of him after the fact? Or bragging? |
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7th May 2020, 10:07 AM | #220 |
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7th May 2020, 10:13 AM | #221 |
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Indeed. Consider though... Frequently I hear black people describe how they instruct their children to behave in order to avoid risky confrontations with cops. They don't do this because they think their kids are guilty of something, or because they think cops are always in the right. They do this in the interest of protecting their kids from harm.
Here on the internet, it's hard to distinguish that sentiment from excusing the perps. (I'm not addressing this to you.) It's my sense that Thermal is not excusing the perps in any way, and I wish posters would lighten up on him. |
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7th May 2020, 10:13 AM | #222 |
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I'm a big ol' pussy and busted up as well, but a smoothbore might be the only weapon I'd charge, if the angle was right. That's a big cone of hurt and I'd take 20 seconds to "run" out of it if cover wasn't three steps away. I have to figure anyone who JUST tried to murder me would be just fine with strolling over to where I lay and finishing up the job.
Handgun? Dodge, weave, dive and roll... "serpentine" (what was the stupid younger Stark's name again?) "Hunting" caliber with (hopefully) a big ol' 10x mount blocking the iron... run, baby run. Serpentine. Select fire "style" rifle... "uhhh, is this high enough? I can raise them higher." I kid... I'd just wimper at the AK/AR (maybe), but I really might logically charge the shotgun. And if I was in motion as this guy was (which I honestly, really CAN'T physically do any more) and the closest cover was ~40 feet away... ??? |
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7th May 2020, 10:18 AM | #223 |
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7th May 2020, 10:22 AM | #224 |
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It's all over the place though. White parents instructing their children to behave in order to avoid risky confrontations with black people or black people neighborhoods. It's not that their kids are guilty of anything, they are doing it to protect their kids from harm. They don't want their children to be killed just because they were white walking on "black street."
As I said, it's the same thing all over the place. |
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7th May 2020, 10:25 AM | #225 |
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7th May 2020, 10:25 AM | #226 |
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7th May 2020, 10:27 AM | #227 |
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7th May 2020, 10:27 AM | #228 |
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Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot. |
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7th May 2020, 10:30 AM | #229 |
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Thanks, varwoche, and you are spot on. If I had my way, it would be 20 years to life to display a firearm in public, barring some LEO and security personel. These rednecks declared themselves executioners when they grabbed guns and headed out to the public street, full stop. Arbery did nothing to warrant a gun drawn, even if he was actively robbing that construction site, which it's pretty obvious he wasn't.
But that's not a fun position to clutch pearls about, so here we are. |
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7th May 2020, 10:36 AM | #230 |
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I talk with guys that have all kinds of theories about what do do with a gun in sight. I think generally, if it is one guy and the weapon is within hand range, you have a chance at gaining control. Beyond that you are a target, and as you say, moving ones are harder to hit.
I hope to hell none of us ever have to face something like this. But hopefully the seed might get planted in our brains to run fast. Don't surrender, or wait, or continue. Get the **** out of there before a bead gets drawn on you. |
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7th May 2020, 10:39 AM | #231 |
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Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot. |
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7th May 2020, 10:43 AM | #232 |
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Whenever I hear "serpentine" I think of Peter Falk in The In-Laws.
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7th May 2020, 10:45 AM | #233 |
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7th May 2020, 10:47 AM | #234 |
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How about a third option? I would have liked him to run the heck away from them, maybe through a yard (Trespassing? Who freaking cares, your life is in danger!) or towards a home where he could have beat on a door while screaming, "Help, there's two crazy crackers with guns after me! Help! Someone call the police!" I'd rather be reading a humorous story about a couple dumb rednecks driving their truck into a neighbors swimming pool, while chasing an innocent jogger, than the one we're discussing now, any day of the week.
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7th May 2020, 10:50 AM | #235 |
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Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot. |
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7th May 2020, 10:56 AM | #236 |
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FWIW, I think that the defence of "I shot him because I feared for my life" is fatally flawed, even absent all other factors. It means that you've got more excuse to shoot a black person than a white person, just so long as you're scared of black people because you're racist. It essentially means that being racist is a valid defence against the charge of murdering a black person.
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7th May 2020, 10:59 AM | #237 |
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7th May 2020, 11:01 AM | #238 |
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It seems to me that, if he had cut and run, they'd have shot him for trespassing as soon as he set foot on someone's yard/property.
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7th May 2020, 11:02 AM | #239 |
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The law agrees with you. It is not a valid defense to say that you feared for your life. It is only a valid defense to say that a reasonable person would have feared for his life. It's a very important distinction.
ETA: Which is not to say that juries always respect the distinction, even if explicitly instructed by the judge to do so. |
7th May 2020, 11:25 AM | #240 |
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