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7th May 2020, 06:36 PM | #321 |
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Prior to this, there was no lynching here.
Charges brought based on public outrage are inherently illegitimate. |
7th May 2020, 06:43 PM | #322 |
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Both bob and bogative have expressed those viewpoints, so no, it's not clear, it's wrong.
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I don't really see the point of discussing the tactics of his situation in this thread. |
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7th May 2020, 06:45 PM | #323 |
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While IANAL and it'd be good if people actually looked at the law before guessing....
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There is no separation of Murder into 1st and 2nd degree in Georgia (they do have a Murder in the 2nd degree, but it's connected exclusively to cruelty to children in the second degree), they have Homicide where Murder is considered the most serve type. so does it meet the legal definition of murder?
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If we go back to my previous post then....
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That far more complicated. Firstly there can be a lot of debate about if they were actually committing a false imprisonment. Here are the main defenses... Lack of Intent - well we know they had intent. A valid arrest was made - They would argue this one, but as we noted previously, it was not valid under the law. There was a reasonable way out - Note that the way out must be reasonable. They could argue, as some had done, that he could have run, but since they were chasing him, running would be unlikely to lead to escape. Consent - there is no indication that the victim here consented It was lawful imprisonment - Doesn't apply in this case The victim did not know they were being detained - This is a possible defense, however from the victim's actions I would say that he knew they were attempting to detain him. Threats of reputational harm are insufficient - This is NA, they had guns pointed at him, it wasn't his reputation that was at harm here. The victim was not confined - Again, not really applicable as this is more for people that are prevented from going into a certain area, but can go elsewhere freely. So on that basis it would seem that the defenses don't apply, and it was False Imprisonment. As such it is likely that by the written Law it was murder.... However, and there is a however, again it's not totally clear, as we'll cover below. So what about Felony Murder for the others? Under Georgia Code Title 16. Crimes and Offenses § 16-2-20
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Could the court expand that list to include False Imprisonment? I'd suggest that it certainly could, but as of yet it hasn't been..... so..... And this is the grey area as to what could be charged, and sine IANAL I'm not even going to try and argue this one out. I'd say that there certainly is a case to be made for them to be charged, but there is also a case for not charging beyond the shooter. (ETA: I see above that the shooter and it seems one other have now been charged, so Woohoo!) ETA2: I see that they have been charged with aggravated assault as well as murder, and a death during an aggravated assault is already on the list for Felony Murders, so there is no need to speculate on is False Imprisonment rises to the level of an inherently dangerous felony.
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7th May 2020, 06:54 PM | #324 |
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Like many humorless and indignant people, he is hard on everybody but himself, and does not perceive it when he fails his own ideal (Molière) A pedant is a man who studies a vacuum through instruments that allow him to draw cross-sections of the details (John Ciardi) |
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7th May 2020, 06:57 PM | #325 |
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7th May 2020, 07:01 PM | #326 |
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I was in India the day after the US went into Iraq. I was walking down the street when a rickshaw pulled up and four guys jumped out and surrounded me, screaming at me. The idea that they were trying to rob me didn't even cross my mind.
(Luckily an Indian woman I knew was just down the street, she saw what was happening and ran over and yelled at them and they left me alone.) |
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"... when people thought the Earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the Earth was spherical they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the Earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the Earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together." Isaac Asimov |
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7th May 2020, 07:03 PM | #327 |
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I think you can add Skeptic Tank to your list.
Alas, I'm inclined to agree with Joe Morgue on this: while we can fuss about with possible scenarios about what Arbery might have done or should have done, I think the killers meant to shoot him, and whatever he might have done, they would have found an excuse to do it. The discussion we're now having would be almost the same, just a different thing he should or shouldn't have done. |
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Like many humorless and indignant people, he is hard on everybody but himself, and does not perceive it when he fails his own ideal (Molière) A pedant is a man who studies a vacuum through instruments that allow him to draw cross-sections of the details (John Ciardi) |
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7th May 2020, 07:12 PM | #328 |
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7th May 2020, 07:14 PM | #329 |
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Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot. |
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7th May 2020, 07:14 PM | #330 |
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7th May 2020, 07:15 PM | #331 |
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I wish this wasn't the case, but I'm inclined to agree with you on their, or at least the shooters, intent. All one need do is watch HIM right after the fatal shot. They aren't the actions of a person who is shocked or surprised by what has happened. He watches Arbery run and fall, then walks away like it was nothing. Even the guy in the back of the truck acts surprised by what's happened. His frantic scramble compared to the other is telling. Glad they've locked them up.
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7th May 2020, 07:33 PM | #332 |
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audio of two 911 calls
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...nning-shooting |
7th May 2020, 07:39 PM | #333 |
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In all seriousness, I think the chances of this are very close to zero.
It's really hard to say that kind of thing about someone in a moment like that, could have been in shock, etc. People sometimes look stunned or like their reaction is surprisingly mundane in moments like that. Just hard to say. I honestly think they probably thought the odds they'd end up shooting the guy were pretty much zilch. I think, in fact, if they'd thought it was even a remote possibility they'd have sat it out and waited on the cops. I think they were 100% convinced he would stop at the sight of them and their firearms and hang tight until police arrived to question him. People are often shocked by the instantaneous, unthinking, impulsive violence of certain types. The people who are overly sympathetic toward criminals often fail to realize, some people are just violent and are constitutionally incapable of making a sober, restrained "fight another day" or "well crap, they caught me" type of determination. They're thwarted in any way, and they lash out instantly without thought. If you're a big-brained overly thoughtful liberal sipping your tea as you analyze a case like this, it's incredibly difficult for you to put yourself in the headspace of someone like that. I think that's actually a lot of what's behind the "policing us is unfair" type rhetoric. It's because it's actually true. It's not reasonable in the slightest to expect civilized behavior, and actually quite cruel to demand it. |
7th May 2020, 07:43 PM | #334 |
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It was patently outrageous that this case was not going to come before a court. If you take someone’s life you must expect to face a trial.
You will be one of those people that whine about black athletes taking a knee. No, if you operate a justice system that only works for one segment of society and you then ignore the outrage, one day it will boil over in violence. |
7th May 2020, 07:48 PM | #335 |
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If there's video showing the deceased lunging toward you, grabbing your firearm, punching you, etc. - I don't see why you should.
Really no matter what happened prior to that, the violent actions of the deceased in those final seconds left the man with the shotgun with very little choice. He could not permit this violent man to get control of his gun. Edit: Had this guy been innocent, had it been a misunderstanding - what would've played out was him putting his hands up, stopping, and saying something like "woah woah woah! what the hell guys?! I don't know who you think I am but you're mistaken! ---- Yeah! you bet I'll wait here for the cops! Just don't frigging shoot me in the meantime! I was just out for a jog!" Him evading them and then when they finally made further evasion impossible, attacking them - up to and including trying to get the shotgun, indicates to me very clearly they had him exactly right. He was there to prey upon that community and had done so before. He knew they were proactive civic minded gentlemen trying to protect said community, and he decided he would do whatever it took to avoid being there when the police arrived. I think he knew for a certainty they were on the way. I think he would have killed the three white men without much hesitation at all, had he been able to get ahold of a firearm and do so. |
7th May 2020, 07:49 PM | #336 |
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7th May 2020, 07:57 PM | #337 |
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7th May 2020, 07:58 PM | #338 |
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7th May 2020, 08:11 PM | #339 |
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Precisely right, in the sense that both are 100% BS narratives 180 degrees from the truth.
In both cases, the actions and choices of the deceased criminals led directly to their deaths, and in both cases a bunch of emotional, racially minded "individuals" who haven't seen the full evidence, and wouldn't understand it or pay attention to it if they did, start screaming on the internet and on the TV and then the "justice system" caves and charges someone they've already determined did nothing illegal. |
7th May 2020, 08:12 PM | #340 |
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If it turns out that Arbery really was a criminal and really had been caught on surveillance cameras before, doing things that he ought not be doing, I will admit that my attitude toward the men in the pickup would change. However, even if that turns out to be the case, legally, it should make no difference. They still had no right to threaten him. Threatening him would still be a crime, and so his death would still be murder.
However, if it turns out that Arbery was a bad person after all, I would root for the guys to be able to plea bargain to a lesser charge. I would still want them in jail. I don't like the idea of people grabbing guns and deciding to use them. If you see someone you think is a criminal, grab your phone, not your gun. As it is, though, I think the most likely scenario is that Arbery was a black man, and so was whoever was seen on whatever video, and these local boys decided that was all the evidence they needed to do whatever it was they intended to do. |
7th May 2020, 08:18 PM | #341 |
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All I know is that I can already tell that the day these guys get acquitted is going to be one of the more enjoyable anguish-harvests I've had since 2016.
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7th May 2020, 08:43 PM | #342 |
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7th May 2020, 08:49 PM | #343 |
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7th May 2020, 08:51 PM | #344 |
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Yes, yes I think most know how you feel about non-white people.
I doubt you will be rejoicing, in which case it would be a bad day for you and a good day for US justice. If these idiots are set free, you may we’ll be enjoying yourself, but US justice will take another mighty blow which will leave people around the world shaking their heads in disbelief. |
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7th May 2020, 08:54 PM | #345 |
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Yes, a system where actual legal authorities who see all the evidence determine that no charges are appropriate and then months later within 24 hours the media and Twitter whining get MURDER CHARGES to happen in spite of that, is such a beacon of justice.
What a complete joke. |
7th May 2020, 08:55 PM | #346 |
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7th May 2020, 08:56 PM | #347 |
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See the problem with this line of reasoning is that there's no way that they could have conclusively known that he was a "bad person" or rather that he had committed a crime. Given how completely inexcusable their reaction was it doesn't matter who the victim was because it could have, principally speaking, been anyone.
People shouldn't get a lesser sentence for randomly shooting someone to death because it is subsequently determined that the victim had committed some crime or misdeed. |
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7th May 2020, 08:59 PM | #348 |
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7th May 2020, 09:01 PM | #349 |
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We would be a lot safer if the Government would take its money out of science and put it into astrology and the reading of palms. Only in superstition is there hope. - Kurt Vonnegut Jr And no, Cuba is not a brutal and corrupt dictatorship, and it's definitely less so than Sweden. - dann |
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7th May 2020, 09:01 PM | #350 |
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Police show up to find dude in ski mask with knife in my house, dead on the floor from my gunshot - I called 911 10 minutes earlier and told them to hurry, someone was breaking into my house.
I've got a deep knife wound on my arm and there's blood on his knife blade. The window is broken where he came in. Does this need to go to court? Someone is dead. |
7th May 2020, 09:02 PM | #351 |
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So take that quantum equation and recalculate the wave by a factor of hoopty doo! The answer is not my problem, it's yours. Three Word Story Wisdom |
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7th May 2020, 09:02 PM | #352 |
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7th May 2020, 09:04 PM | #353 |
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"Anything's possible, but only a few things actually happen" |
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7th May 2020, 09:04 PM | #354 |
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"... when people thought the Earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the Earth was spherical they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the Earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the Earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together." Isaac Asimov |
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7th May 2020, 09:07 PM | #355 |
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7th May 2020, 09:08 PM | #356 |
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Why don't you see this incident as people running down a guy out for a jog then blowing him away when he tried to defend himself from a man armed with a shotgun?
So if armed men chased after the victim, and another vehicle stops on the road in front of him, this does not matter? Can you possibly see it from the dead man's point of view? Some armed men chased him down and he tried to keep a man from shooting him first by running around the vehicle stopped in the road then directly confronting the man with the shotgun? You really think that the men who chased the victim down were going to let him go and ever testify against them? Only a fool would stop for an armed gang in the street when it was possible to run away. The victim evading the armed men was entirely legal and sensible. It looked like they had little trouble gunning him down. They could have simply followed him until the police got there. So you're a witness to the victim's "crimes" and will testify that you knew his state of mind? Or maybe he was out for a jog? Are you suggesting that killing a person who is shooting a shotgun at you is not the proper course of action to take to save your own life while out jogging? |
7th May 2020, 09:09 PM | #357 |
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I don't think someone legally carrying a firearm and going to legally attempt to detain someone they believe has just committed a crime (and committed others previously) who then ends up shooting and killing the person after being physically attacked and control of their firearm being threatened, is acting as "judge, jury and executioner" - I think they're acting as a concerned citizen looking out for their neighborhood and all the people in it, trying not to let crime get a foothold in it, and then reacting to preserve their own life when the criminal decides he "can't go back to jail" and attacks.
In neither case were the deceased "defending themselves against an armed assailant" Both Trayvon and Ahmaud knew exactly what their targets were: snitches. Not threats. Snitches. The attacks in both cases were retaliation for trying to get them busted. In this case, Ahmaud felt he had to attack to make good his escape from the area, whereas Trayvon doubled back and attacked Zimmerman out of anger when he was already home free. |
7th May 2020, 09:10 PM | #358 |
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7th May 2020, 09:10 PM | #359 |
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7th May 2020, 09:13 PM | #360 |
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Let's be clear. This was not self-defence. The two white guys actively hunted the man. They decided that he had been doing something wrong, they decided to take action, and they decided that he deserved to die.
Fortunately for them, they are now able to avail themselves of the criminal justice system - something they denied to their victim. |
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