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9th December 2020, 02:57 AM | #1 |
Muse
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Racism or misunderstanding?
During a champions league match between PSG and Istanbul Basaksehir last night, the game was postponed when both sets of players walked off the pitch after an alleged racist phrase was used by an official.
https://www.caughtoffside.com/2020/1...nd-basaksehir/
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Coltescu used one of the descriptions above. With all the recent BLM campaign and with most football matches starting with players taking the knee to highlight racism, is this a case of overt racism, over sensitivity or just an over reaction to a translation problem? |
9th December 2020, 03:11 AM | #2 |
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Over reaction.
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9th December 2020, 03:20 AM | #3 |
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There is undoubtedly racism on view at football matches, and I’m sure in some cases it might be seen when it wasn’t intended. Without full details it’s hard to be sure which, though the situation described sounds like the old joke about two country simpletons trying to decide how to tell two horses apart.
I saw the documentary by Anton Ferdinand about the incident with John Terry the other day ( https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000pzpr ). I am entirely sympathetic to people who constantly face insults based purely on the colour of their skin; any reference to that, even innocently, is going to come with the baggage of abuse they have suffered. John Terry was seen to have called Ferdinand a ‘black ****’, though Ferdinand was not aware of it at the time. On the other hand, Ferdinand freely admits to calling Terry a ‘****’ (same word) beforehand (though we don’t know if Terry heard that). Does adding the descriptive ‘black’ make it racist? |
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9th December 2020, 04:50 AM | #4 |
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I grew up going to football in the 70's and racism was rife.
There was a large right wing influence from places like the National Front and later he BNP . Fans would even abuse black players from their own team. I wouldn't say it has been eradicated by any means but at least now it is rare enough that when it happens it is a big news story rather than the norm. Re; the Ferdinand/terry incident, as I recall the lip reading experts couldn't agree on exactly what was said or in what context and Terry was found not guilty in court. Then the FA held their own inquiry where they found him guilty. In court no witness testified to hearing any racist insults although Ferdinand did admit under oath to insulting Terry's mother as well as calling him a ****. Although having played football (to a very minor level) and refereed to semi pro level this sort of thing is quite normal, and I would suspect most pro players would accept this as part of the job. Yes, I would say using "black" in the context Terry was accused of would be racist, but to brand someone as racist should require enough evidence for that to be proved beyond a reasonable doubt. |
9th December 2020, 04:51 AM | #5 |
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Regarding the Terry example. From your description I'd say a good test is "Does the black add to anything bar the insult?" In this instance it doesn't so why add it? It is being used as part of the insult, so yes it is racist. I can understand the person using it may not realise it was racist but given the focus UK football has had in regards to racism I would say this Terry bloke is thick as pig **** if he doesn't understand it was racist.
As to the football official, if it was simply used as a neutral descriptor then it wasn't racist. |
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9th December 2020, 05:51 AM | #6 |
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9th December 2020, 06:34 AM | #7 |
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I started off thinking, if the explanation given is found to be accurate, then it's laziness on the part of the 4th official (after all, why couldn't he just point and say "that guy over there"?) followed by over reaction.
Then, I reconsidered Darats comment regarding the descriptor and thought, when you apply Darats "test" it can be said that there was no need to use the descriptor in any case. That being the case it's racist. Then I read what I just wrote and thought, "what if somebody took offence at the use of the gender specific descriptor (that guy) in my suggested alternative?". If that might happen then avoiding such terms is a good strategy. Now we're somewhere between, racist and bigoted. Maybe pointing specifically at the transgressor and saying nothing is the only way out of this with ones reputation intact. Then, I read what just wrote and thought, "some cultures do not like to be pointed at and some religions find it an insult depending on which finger is used". Then we are now at racist and bigoted. Maybe he should have just walked up to the transgressor and indicated with his head. Then I read what I just wrote and thought, "perhaps that move might have been threatening". Now were at hostile. Then I thought, "the problem isn't that there may be some merit to the accusation levelled against the 4th official. The problem is that there are any number of actors who can and will spin any negative situation, in this case the impending red card, to create a situation where prejudice is the only motivation. Then I thought, "we're ******, they've gained a foothold and the creep has started and, having done so, is slowing down and reversing any, however small, advances made in human relations". |
9th December 2020, 06:44 AM | #8 |
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I've been called "mat salleh", in Malaysia - not quite at the level you describe but it's no compliment.
In SE Asia, I've been call "farang" and "Farang khi nok" - the latter basically calling me a piece of ****. Sometimes the insulter wasn't even "upset"! What was your question again? |
9th December 2020, 06:57 AM | #9 |
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Darling, Romanians. You know what they're like.
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9th December 2020, 07:04 AM | #10 |
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9th December 2020, 07:10 AM | #11 |
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Probably racist. Why would he need to refer the 'Black'? It's as though he saying, you might be a well paid famous footballer and me an 'umble linesman but I'm going to put you in your place and call you 'the Black'. Having been a season ticket holder at both QPR and Aston Villa, it hasn't been my impression that football fans are particularly racist. Sure you have the loud macho assertions of supremacy with plenty of sexism and homophobia (and Yid slurs when playing Spurs). Some of the language is absolutely filthy but more in a bawdy amusing way. Football fans are very witty and the banter is part of the enjoyment. (For example, when every Rangers fan at the Old Trafford away end sang as one - bank managers, labourers - 'Roy Keene is a wanker!'). Aston Villa fans were particularly amusing. Probably because of the droll Brummie accent. I can recall occasions seeing football fans performing nazi salutes but this was relatively rare and I honestly can't remember race hatred. However, it really hit home just how 'cultural' English football fandom is, whilst at a testimonial match for a retiring QPR player (I think it was Simon Barker). Having been used to aggressive macho sexist loud male voices asserting superiority and arm chair coaching ('Go on my son, down the right, pass it to X, shoot!') the most pleasant football match I ever attended was this particular testimonial game, against the Jamaica national team, who wanted a few friendly games in England ahead of their (first?) World Cup appearance. Not surprisingly, being in Shepherd's Bush and a World Cup team, the place was packed to the rafters with West Indian fans. Every time the Jamaica team went forward, a murmur and hum filled the air rather than shouting and yelling. It was such a nice change. Great atmosphere. No aggression. |
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9th December 2020, 07:20 AM | #12 |
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I don't know if it racism but an on-field official not just using the names of the players during a call and using a descriptive term is weird and I don't know why they would do it.
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9th December 2020, 08:24 AM | #13 |
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It was one of the coaches not a player.
If it had been a normal league game in the officials own country he may well have known the coaches name, as it was a champions league game between teams from different countries and officials from a neutral country he may well have not known the guys name. I'm not sure of the situation at the exact time it happened as to whether there was more than one black guy in the group where the official was identifying him. Is referring to someone's colour as a means of identification the norm in Romania? I don't know. I know there are differences in how words are used for descriptive purposes in different countries. e.g. In the UK we refer to the Australians (esp in cricket) as the Aussies. I have heard Australians refer to the Pakistani cricket team as the Paki's. This would be seen to be highly offensive and extremely racist if used in the UK. |
9th December 2020, 08:49 AM | #14 |
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In American football, when an offense or penalty is called, the ref announces it by referencing the players jersey number. The ref's personal/artistic impressions don't come into calling the player. Is that really such a high behavioral bar?
Eta: should he call other players 'the ugly one'? 'That long-hair'? 'That tight little package with legs for days'? |
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9th December 2020, 08:56 AM | #15 |
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9th December 2020, 08:58 AM | #16 |
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“If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago |
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9th December 2020, 09:03 AM | #17 |
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The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell Zooterkin is correct Darat Nerd! Hokulele Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232 Ezekiel 23:20 |
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9th December 2020, 09:07 AM | #18 |
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9th December 2020, 09:13 AM | #19 |
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If there are two blokes sitting side by side over there and you want to indicate one of them to the person you're talking to, it's fine to use a distinguishing characteristic: The tall one, the short one, the one with long hair or, indeed, the black one or the white one. I don't see that as an issue.
Of course, if you both know their names, that has to be easier. If they have numbers on their clothing then that's definitely going to be easier. The moment you add an insult to the end of it, it becomes more tricky. You might get away with 'you lanky bastard' or 'you blonde haired git', but the moment you consider using a racial characteristic along with an insult you should really stop and think again and maybe come up with something less charged and more poetic. I've always said it doesn't matter so much what you say as what you mean, which is why you can get away with calling your friends all sorts of things that would result in a punch up if you used them on strangers. One should not expect or receive such latitude with people who aren't close friends. |
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9th December 2020, 09:14 AM | #20 |
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I would agree with you, especially after thinking about it more since seeing the programme. It's just that, at first sight, the other word involved strikes me (as a white person, of course) as more insulting than the word 'black'. However, I can understand why the latter is highly charged.
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The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell Zooterkin is correct Darat Nerd! Hokulele Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232 Ezekiel 23:20 |
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9th December 2020, 09:15 AM | #21 |
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9th December 2020, 09:16 AM | #22 |
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People have names which is exactly why using a "descriptor" for them is problematic.
Everyone stopping splitting hairs about the descriptor used. |
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9th December 2020, 09:16 AM | #23 |
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9th December 2020, 09:16 AM | #24 |
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The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell Zooterkin is correct Darat Nerd! Hokulele Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232 Ezekiel 23:20 |
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9th December 2020, 09:18 AM | #25 |
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I'm not sure if I'm ready to go down the "Now prove to me its reasonable that someone on one team should just be expected to know the actual names of the people on the opposing team" rabbit hole.
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9th December 2020, 09:19 AM | #26 |
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One team from France, the other from Turkey, the officials from Romania.
I think it is reasonable to assume the officials may not have been familiar with the names of the coaching staff apart from maybe the head coach of each side. From this picture it doesn't look like there were any other black members of the coaching staff. |
9th December 2020, 09:21 AM | #27 |
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There are 46 potentially active players on each side at an NFL game. And they're wearing helmets a lot of the time. I wouldn't expect any official to learn them all. Which is why they have numbers.
Even the 16 or 17 players in an Association Football squad is going to be tricky. They have number too. |
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9th December 2020, 09:21 AM | #28 |
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I don't know the norms and history and culture around racial description in the sport or countries involved.
But I would be surprised if BOTH teams reacted so strongly on the scene if there was nothing to it. They DO have all of that context and more. Any disingenuous motivation one team might have, you wouldn't expect it from both. |
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9th December 2020, 09:24 AM | #29 |
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As I recall, it was the Romanian fourth official who was the person accused of saying something racist by referring to the "black player" as the one who should receive the yellow card, "black" in a Latin-origin language being some variant of "Negro", of course.
Massive overreaction, IMO. No more racist than any other physical descriptor to single out which one you mean in a group. The usual suspects will predictably disagree. |
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9th December 2020, 09:25 AM | #30 |
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The article is not overly clear, but I can see one instance where this might make a little bit of sense, although still insensitive as all hell.
Dozen or so guys in one area of the bench, dressed plus or minus in the same team colors. Only one is a black guy. If the ref is at some kind of distance, he might say 'the black one', meaning 'of that group of which the most unique characteristic to single him out at a distance is that he is black'. |
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9th December 2020, 09:26 AM | #31 |
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Did you read the OP? The person being identified as 'black' is a member of the coaching team. The two teams are from different countries (France and Turkey), and do not regularly play one another. The fourth official involved is from Romania. He might be expected to know most of the players by name, but it's a bit of stretch to expect him to know all the coaching teams.
As I've already said, I'm not forming an opinion without further information on whether what he said was racist, just pointing out that some of the alternative ways suggested here to identify which of two people he was referring to were not necessarily available to him. |
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The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell Zooterkin is correct Darat Nerd! Hokulele Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232 Ezekiel 23:20 |
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9th December 2020, 09:27 AM | #32 |
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9th December 2020, 09:31 AM | #34 |
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That does sound like what happened, as far as I can follow the reports. More details here in some tweets after the incident. It does seem my earlier conjecture may be relevant, that he said 'black' in Romanian, which is 'negru', but what was heard was 'negro', but there is also the question of why was it necessary to specify he was black.
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The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell Zooterkin is correct Darat Nerd! Hokulele Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232 Ezekiel 23:20 |
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9th December 2020, 09:35 AM | #35 |
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9th December 2020, 09:40 AM | #36 |
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"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" -Mark Twain "Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet |
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9th December 2020, 09:43 AM | #37 |
Pi
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Do you think it's inherrently racist to identify someone whose name you don't know as 'the black one' or 'the white one' or 'the chinese one' when they're sat next to someone that clearly doesn't fit that description? ETA: This is the US Ryder cup team, 2012 https://img.rasset.ie/00067113-1600.jpg If you're talking to someone who knows nothing at all about golf and golfers and you want to talk about Tiger Woods and they say, 'which one's he'? then, personally, I'd have no issue saying he was the black one before resorting to 'front row, third from the right' or similar. |
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9th December 2020, 09:52 AM | #38 |
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It can be, sure. Trying to put myself in that position, I might actually refer to someone at a distance as 'the black guy', in the same way I might say 'the tall guy'. You pick the trait that is uniquely identifiable at a distance to single him out. The problem is it is easily mixed up with the way a racist would refer to someone only by that trait, as if it is the only trait of note. Too easily confused, in this OP.
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"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" -Mark Twain "Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet |
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9th December 2020, 10:01 AM | #39 |
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When people look at an incident such as this (a football team walking off form a game) and it revolves around an issue of 'racism', there is a tendency for people to see the POV of the official accused but not of the player/s who took offence. Hence, it becomes an 'over-reaction' by the player or being 'over sensitive'. There is always that denial element. For example, when Millwall players 'took the knee' there was a barrage of booing from their own fans. Most of the media were shocked. Millwall fans flocked the social media to claim they were not booing black people but because of BLM 'being a marxist organisation'. Even the DAILY MAIL carried this obvious falsehood by having dug up some individual/s who had registered a company or charity name as 'BLM UK Ltd' and describing themselves as socialist. The lengths people will go to to deny the reality of racist behaviour to give the racists the benefit of a doubt.
In the case of this official, the truth will come out but you can't refer to someone as 'the Black', 'the Jew', 'the Chinese' or whatever, and not expect a double take. |
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