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Tags adolf hitler , donald trump , Nazi comparisons , nazi germany , Trump controversies

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Old 27th May 2021, 11:29 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
But Trump isn't the problem: he's the result. Look at the kinds of Republicans who are being elected in the red states. Republicans aren't voting for more moderate legislators, they're voting in more radical ones who are more competent like Josh Hawley and Ted Cruz or even crazier like MTG and Boebert. They aren't 'dispersing' at all. Trump supporters will get behind whatever far right candidate echos Trump which is why they are all kneeling before him at Mar a Lago.
Yes. I see a lot of anti-Trump people seeming to think that our troubles are over, and even mocking the parade of wackadoos that are starting to fill in the Right wing rosters.

Our failed coup wasn't a total waste for the extreme right in this country. A failure still contains useful data. They learned that many cops really aren't willing to oppose fascist violence, even in the case of a physical attack on the seats of power. They also learned where the vulnerabilities of our political system lies.

These absurd "investigations" into elections in places like Arizona are no laughing matter. It doesn't matter that it's false. The right has correctly determined that, so long as they sufficiently ideological allies in the right positions, they can overturn losing elections and install a minoritarian president. The handful of Republican officials that did their duty and refused to be cowed by Trump are well on their way to being cast out and replaced with more loyal types.

The next time around there could easily be a contested election where extreme right secretaries of state or other officials just dismiss a losing election as invalid. Do we really think Republicans in Congress won't jump on an opportunity to claim a "contested" election means their guy won?

We're witnessing within the right wing a thorough purge of anyone with any scrap of scruples. Those that refused to play along with the self-serving lies of election fraud are being shown the door. Next time around there won't be any wishy washy types in the way.

The path forward for American fascism is pretty clear.
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Old 27th May 2021, 11:30 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
But Trump isn't the problem: he's the result. Look at the kinds of Republicans who are being elected in the red states. Republicans aren't voting for more moderate legislators, they're voting in more radical ones who are more competent like Josh Hawley and Ted Cruz or even crazier like MTG and Boebert. They aren't 'dispersing' at all. Trump supporters will get behind whatever far right candidate echos Trump which is why they are all kneeling before him at Mar a Lago.
The result or not, without another cult leader the movement of rightwing radicals can follow, they will remain disorganized malcontents.

At this point in time, no way are those legislators capable of attracting and commanding a following.
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Old 27th May 2021, 11:33 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
While it is true that there are some similarities between Trump and Hitler, but there are also a number of considerable differences between Trump and Hitler. As a result, I do not find that comparing Trump and Hitler does much good.
....
I don't think the real comparison is between the two men, but the movements that supported them. Both are anti-democratic, authoritarian and racist. Trump pretty clearly saw himself as an entertainer, and by multiple accounts he expected his campaign to help boost his brand and his TV properties, not to make him President. He shaped his message to appeal to the people who already felt that way, and in turn they have used him to seize and expand their power.
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Old 27th May 2021, 11:39 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
The result or not, without another cult leader the movement of rightwing radicals can follow, they will remain disorganized malcontents.

At this point in time, no way are those legislators capable of attracting and commanding a following.
But they're not disorganized. The voting restrictions that numerous legislatures are considering and some have passed, and a lot of other right-wing laws and policies are coming directly from ALEC and other right-wing organizations. The Federalist Society was telling Trump who to put on the courts. Repub legislators don't have to win a big following as long as they can gerrymander their districts and decide who gets to vote.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Americ...change_Council
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Old 27th May 2021, 12:02 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
I don't think the real comparison is between the two men, but the movements that supported them. Both are anti-democratic, authoritarian and racist. Trump pretty clearly saw himself as an entertainer, and by multiple accounts he expected his campaign to help boost his brand and his TV properties, not to make him President. He shaped his message to appeal to the people who already felt that way, and in turn they have used him to seize and expand their power.
Thanks much and quite well said.

If nothing else, Trump is total opportunist, and once he got into power, he quickly used that for his own benefit. And of course, many of his supporters did much the same thing.
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Old 27th May 2021, 12:18 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
I don't think the real comparison is between the two men, but the movements that supported them. Both are anti-democratic, authoritarian and racist. Trump pretty clearly saw himself as an entertainer, and by multiple accounts he expected his campaign to help boost his brand and his TV properties, not to make him President. He shaped his message to appeal to the people who already felt that way, and in turn they have used him to seize and expand their power.
Exactly. I did not title this thread "Hitler and Trump: A Comparison" for a reason. It's not about the two men. It's about how they came to power.
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Old 27th May 2021, 12:21 PM   #47
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I get the feeling that some of you have not actually read the article I linked to in my first post. Please do. It's not that long.
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Old 27th May 2021, 12:32 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
I get the feeling that some of you have not actually read the article I linked to in my first post. Please do. It's not that long.
It's also not that original.

Hitler/Trump thinkpieces from a billion different angles have a dime a dozen for years now, and that's not to say they are wrong but this isn't exactly news to most of us.
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Old 27th May 2021, 12:38 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
It's also not that original.

Hitler/Trump thinkpieces from a billion different angles have a dime a dozen for years now, and that's not to say they are wrong but this isn't exactly news to most of us.
Especially at this point. There was a time when many people where willing to quibble about whether or not MAGA was a fascist movement, and in such cases historical precedent is useful for definition and comparison.

Does anyone really doubt this basic fact anymore?
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Old 27th May 2021, 12:42 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Does anyone really doubt this basic fact anymore?
Not really. The only point of contention is internet trolls deciding that comparisons and metaphors and other forms of argumentative language are suddenly "bad" after being used with zero issue for all of human history because hate ******* the discussion hoping to kill it is all they have left after rejecting facts and basic human decency.
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Old 27th May 2021, 01:14 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Monica 56 View Post
Both are Jewish in their bloodlines on both sides .
Nope. Unlike the events of 70 years ago, people are reluctant to open open up an new Sobibor, or Treblinka or indulge such nonsense.

Bloodlines? That is such bovine crapology that it is to laugh. Bloodlines? Mine is far more ancient than yours. As if that matters to anyone.

But you seem to think that is important for some reason.

Originally Posted by Monica 56 View Post
Before a brain collapse over that assertion about Adolf , read Miles Mathis' reports on the matter .
Mathis is a strung out surfer. Why would anyone pay any attention to his strung out ravings?

Originally Posted by Monica 56 View Post
Trump's genealogy is well known and public .
The details and back- up scholarship are immense and it is pointless disagreeing until you have read the 'dossier '
Yup. Drumpf is a jew. Didn't you pay attention?

Originally Posted by Monica 56 View Post
You will need to read it a few times to absorb, and disagreeing with it would require a few month's work at minimum and the scope of one or more books to cover it completely .
Nope. I need nothing much to observe a narcissist Jew. Why that is even vaguely relevant? There are narcissistic muslims who were quite happy to kill NYC, but you are not condemning those, are you.

Originally Posted by Monica 56 View Post
Of course Compliance Gullibles will reject it before they get to paragraph two but information like this is not suitable for them in the first place .Something about thirsty horses and water -----
Interesting. Why do you support the supremacy of Islam?
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Old 27th May 2021, 01:37 PM   #52
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I'm not sure it is a useful argument

Quote:
Hitler learned his lesson: A sophisticated modern state could not be overturned by a violent coup led by outsiders, against the police and the army. He realized he would have to work within the system.
That applies to anyone trying to work within the system....liberals/conservatives/centrists/etc. The only ones not like Hitler are actual terrorists.
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Old 27th May 2021, 01:49 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Especially at this point. There was a time when many people where willing to quibble about whether or not MAGA was a fascist movement, and in such cases historical precedent is useful for definition and comparison.

Does anyone really doubt this basic fact anymore?
Don't insult the patriots, you dirty communist!!!
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Old 27th May 2021, 03:09 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Especially at this point. There was a time when many people where willing to quibble about whether or not MAGA was a fascist movement, and in such cases historical precedent is useful for definition and comparison.

Does anyone really doubt this basic fact anymore?
Isn't there an entire thread devoted to that very question? Why, yes...yes, there and it ran for 25 pages of people arguing :

Are we allowed to call Trump's regime fascism now?

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=345789


I'd say you'd get a pretty strong push back from the entire Republican Party that the MAGA movement is a fascist movement. They'd be wrong, of course, but you'd still get the argument.

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Old 27th May 2021, 03:11 PM   #55
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I would like to point out that any fascist country or group we can all agree on labeled themselves fascist.
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Old 27th May 2021, 03:15 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
But they're not disorganized. The voting restrictions that numerous legislatures are considering and some have passed, and a lot of other right-wing laws and policies are coming directly from ALEC and other right-wing organizations. The Federalist Society was telling Trump who to put on the courts. Repub legislators don't have to win a big following as long as they can gerrymander their districts and decide who gets to vote.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Americ...change_Council
You are conflating GOP power grabs/greed with an organized movement following a cult leader.

I think we're on two different tracks here.
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Old 27th May 2021, 03:51 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
You are conflating GOP power grabs/greed with an organized movement following a cult leader.

I think we're on two different tracks here.
The GOP leadership is using the existence of the voter Cult of Trump in order to grab that power.
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Old 27th May 2021, 04:48 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
That goes back to the atomization of the media. It wasn't all that long ago that most of us got most of our information about the world from the network news broadcasts and the local daily paper. You didn't have to like it, but everybody shared the same fact base...
Remember the 'information revolution?' We should have been careful about what we wished for, because as it turned out, we got it. And then some. (There were those who thought they saw this coming and tried to sound the alarm.)
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Old 27th May 2021, 04:52 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
Remember the 'information revolution?' We should have been careful about what we wished for, because as it turned out, we got it. And then some. (There were those who thought they saw this coming and tried to sound the alarm.)
Well don't forget the good guys on the news also.

But I think in general the information revolution is a good thing. The main problem is that crazy people now have a bullhorn that reaches around the world. We're still in the infancy of that technology. With some luck we'll find a way to disseminate reliable information more consistently.
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Old 27th May 2021, 08:52 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
....Mathis is a strung out surfer....
Hey hey hey. Surfers can write some truly beautiful prose. Miles From Sanity Mathis is a sad enough joke. Don't associate the boardriding community with that kook.
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Old 27th May 2021, 09:44 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by Monica 56 View Post
I love surreal comedy .

Sleepy the Puppet Pres is already looking more and more like a budding Dictator than Trump ever did
Bw... bwh... bwhahahahahahahahahahaha! OMFSM bwhahahahahahaha! That is ******* hilarious!!!

I'll bet you're actually spouting this crap with a straight face too!
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Old 27th May 2021, 09:51 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
Remember the 'information revolution?' We should have been careful about what we wished for, because as it turned out, we got it. And then some. (There were those who thought they saw this coming and tried to sound the alarm.)

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Old 27th May 2021, 09:59 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Bob001 linked this article in another thread and I found it so interesting and relevant that I thought it deserved a thread of its own.

We are so reluctant to mention Hitler and the rise of Naziism when it comes to discussing Trump and the current direction of the GOP because of the inevitable protests and accusations of "drama" and "hyperbole" from the conservatives that we generally avoid doing so. However, the events of the past year, and especially the last 6-7 months, have shown a clear correlation between what happened in Germany starting in the early 1920's and what is happening here now. In the linked article, historian Benjamin Carter Hett, who has authored several books on the rise of Nazi Germany, discusses how the Nazis took over the German government, not by force, but from within and how our own democracy is in danger of the same authoritarian takeover from within.


Hett answers several questions and makes equally disturbing observations in the rest of the article. Among those questions:

1) As a historian of modern Germany, what did you see when you watched the events of Jan. 6?

2) What parallels do you see between Trump and the larger right-wing movement's use of the Big Lie, as compared to the way Hitler and the Nazis used it?

Liz Cheney tried to warn her GOP colleagues that they are endangering the very democracy they say they are defending and she was punished for speaking truth to power. How can McConnell, McCarthy and so many other GOP Congress members NOT see just how dangerous their support of Trump's Big Lie is to our very democracy? How can they care so little for our country?

Here's another one that takes it back a bit further, to 1918.
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Old 27th May 2021, 10:02 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Agreed, and to add. There's also not a similar level of outright revolutionary activity. You don't see Freikorps and communists fighting for literal control of cities and regions of the country. Hitler's grabs for power were among many other similar attempts, often with individual cities or regions briefly being declared independent sovereignty under this or that communist or extreme right authority. Lots of street fighting over turf was happening.

The right wing also enjoyed extreme leniency from the judicial system. Failed right wing coups were not a disaster for these people because they often ended with lenient wrist-slap sentences. Hilter personally failed to seize government and rather than serving a long sentence and/or being deported back to Austria, he got a brief visit to a luxury prison giving him time to collect his thoughts, publish Mein Kampf, and be back in the action in a timely way. US cops are definitely showing a clear preference for extreme right politics, but above the street level I'm not seeing quite as much open enabling by our judicial system. J6 rioters are getting the book thrown at them.

Trump has his brownshirts in the form of fascist groups like the Proud Boys or III%er types, but while similar in type, there is no similarity in scale.

None of this is to diminish the threat that the extreme right poses to this country. Drawing parallels to history is a useful thought experiment, but there is no requirement for things to be an exact duplicate of the past to still happen. History rhymes but doesn't repeat.

More broadly, the attempts of MAGA fash to seize power can be compared to other fascist takeovers, not just to Hitler. I always found that Trump personally seems more like a bumbling, opportunistic Mussolini type rather than a dyed in the wool ideologue like Hilter.
Good points.
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Old 27th May 2021, 11:30 PM   #65
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Monica 56, if you must spout your nonsense, please do it in the appropriate forum instead of my thread: Conspiracy and Conspiracy Theories http://www.internationalskeptics.com...splay.php?f=91
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Old 28th May 2021, 12:37 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Agreed, and to add. There's also not a similar level of outright revolutionary activity. You don't see Freikorps and communists fighting for literal control of cities and regions of the country. Hitler's grabs for power were among many other similar attempts, often with individual cities or regions briefly being declared independent sovereignty under this or that communist or extreme right authority. Lots of street fighting over turf was happening.

The right wing also enjoyed extreme leniency from the judicial system. Failed right wing coups were not a disaster for these people because they often ended with lenient wrist-slap sentences. Hilter personally failed to seize government and rather than serving a long sentence and/or being deported back to Austria, he got a brief visit to a luxury prison giving him time to collect his thoughts, publish Mein Kampf, and be back in the action in a timely way. US cops are definitely showing a clear preference for extreme right politics, but above the street level I'm not seeing quite as much open enabling by our judicial system. J6 rioters are getting the book thrown at them.

Trump has his brownshirts in the form of fascist groups like the Proud Boys or III%er types, but while similar in type, there is no similarity in scale.

None of this is to diminish the threat that the extreme right poses to this country. Drawing parallels to history is a useful thought experiment, but there is no requirement for things to be an exact duplicate of the past to still happen. History rhymes but doesn't repeat.

More broadly, the attempts of MAGA fash to seize power can be compared to other fascist takeovers, not just to Hitler. I always found that Trump personally seems more like a bumbling, opportunistic Mussolini type rather than a dyed in the wool ideologue like Hilter.
I agree with Venom, good points, however, many of the political and social conditions that existed in the Weimar Republic, in the 1920s & 30s, exist now in the USA of the 2010s & 20s

The Big Lies:
1920s Dolchstosslegende, the "stab-in-the-back" lie, that victory in WW1 was stolen from Germany
2020s The stolen Election, the victory was stolen from trump

Overt Patriotism:
1933 25-Punkte-Programm, the 25 point program for extreme German nationalism.
2018 America First (its worth noting the the "America First" slogan was coined by William Randolph Hearst, a US Nazi sympathiser)

Leader disparaging the press:
1930s Hitler used the term Lügenpresse, literally 'press of lies' to describe the mass media
2010s Trump calls the media "Fake News" and the "Enemy of the People"

Leader Admiring and/or associating with authoritarian leaders:
1930s Hitler with Mussolini, Hirohito, (and before WW2) Stalin
2010s Trump with Putin, Erdogan & Duterte

There are other things too

The Racism
The Anti-Semitism
The riots and violent clashes between opposing political ideologies
The Political Tribalism
The belief that white people are being replaced (the Jews will not replace us)
Mexicans are the new boogeyman (it was Jews in 1930's Germany)

With all the voter suppression laws and anti civil-rights laws that are currently being passed in swing states and Democratic states with Republican Legislatures, it not beyond reason that so many Democratic voters will be prevented from voting, that Republicans could win back states with as little as 20% of the electorate or less. I have no doubt that Republican politicians are literally willing to take a wrecking ball to the US electoral system in order to get back into power, and then undertake whatever corrupt actions they deem necessary to keep it.

Am I saying that the USA is going to become a right wing dictatorship tomorrow. No, but the conditions are in place, and the warning signs are there - ignore them at your peril...

You have a Democracy right now... the question is, can you keep it!?
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Old 28th May 2021, 12:58 AM   #67
The Great Zaganza
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What Trump is offering has been called Sadopopulism - instead of offering benefits to the Majority, Trump and most Republicans are offering pain to Minorities.
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Old 28th May 2021, 12:59 AM   #68
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Quote:
Mexicans are the new boogeyman (it was Jews in 1930's Germany)
It's not just the Mexicans; it's any "other", especially a non-light skinned "other". Just as the Nazis spread fear of the "other" so do the far right fear mongers. Just listen to Trump going on about the (white) suburbs being destroyed and you know he's talking about Blacks.
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Old 28th May 2021, 01:02 AM   #69
Monica 56
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Asserting things does not make it true. Your problem is accepting these statements without any verification.
Your huge problem is not bothering to look at matters before making your pronouncements even though a full reference is available .

You need to be constantly spoon fed as do Gullibles in general . As for even looking at anything outside of your world view comfort zone -- apparently impossible .
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Old 28th May 2021, 01:12 AM   #70
Monica 56
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Bw... bwh... bwhahahahahahahahahahaha! OMFSM bwhahahahahahaha! That is ******* hilarious!!!

I'll bet you're actually spouting this crap with a straight face too!
No , Mister Compliance Gullible .
I offered you a chance to expand your patently narrow mind- set and glance at something which has been very well researched .
In fairness your type of petty troll like comment was something which was certain to appear . I hoped individuals like yourself were more mature and eager to look at possibly new dimensions to subjects they assumed were ' cut and dried" .
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Old 28th May 2021, 01:18 AM   #71
Monica 56
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Why do you believe this demented garbage? Seriously. What is are the sources of "information" that you rely on?
It's hardly surprising you react this way when you cannot even be bothered to notice the reference , let alone check out the full report and details .Before producing your asinine verdict .

Bluntly , the original paper is far too long , detailed and complex for the vast majority here to successfully grapple with .
Try reading it and let us know where you disagree with the findings and why . One point will be sufficient .
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Old 28th May 2021, 01:47 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by Monica 56 View Post
No , Mister Compliance Gullible .
I offered you a chance to expand your patently narrow mind- set and glance at something which has been very well researched .
In fairness your type of petty troll like comment was something which was certain to appear . I hoped individuals like yourself were more mature and eager to look at possibly new dimensions to subjects they assumed were ' cut and dried" .
OOOh... Monica 56 called me a troll... now there's a badge of honour!!
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Old 28th May 2021, 01:56 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by Monica 56 View Post
It's hardly surprising you react this way when you cannot even be bothered to notice the reference , let alone check out the full report and details .Before producing your asinine verdict .

Bluntly , the original paper is far too long , detailed and complex for the vast majority here to successfully grapple with .
Try reading it and let us know where you disagree with the findings and why . One point will be sufficient .
Garbage doesn't deserve to be treated as evidence or research.
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Old 28th May 2021, 02:02 AM   #74
Monica 56
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
OOOh... Monica 56 called me a troll... now there's a badge of honour!!
Introducing new and very differently sourced material is not Trolling . Making petty personal remarks is .
Plus second rate attempted deflection-- debate the message or put up .

If your disagree after due diligence , let me know of any points for rebuttal or points that you assert are just plain errors .

Total silence in that area so far .
Almost certainly because you have no inkling of what has been unearthed and is discussed by Mr Mathis .
More bloviation , methinks .
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Old 28th May 2021, 02:10 AM   #75
smartcooky
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Originally Posted by Monica 56 View Post
Introducing new and very differently sourced material is not Trolling
Err what... YOU called ME a troll, remember?


PS: I'm haven't seen you introduce anything "new" that I have seen and read before, and dismissed.

PPS: You have only made six posts in this thread

NONE of them have introduced anything "new and very differently sourced". In fact, you haven't linked a source for any of the bollocks you are spamming the thread with.
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Last edited by smartcooky; 28th May 2021 at 02:52 AM.
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Old 28th May 2021, 02:24 AM   #76
Monica 56
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Err what... YOU called ME a troll, remember?


PS: I'm have seen you introduce anything "new" that I have seen and read before, and dismissed.
Half understood --- but from a corrected English translation .

More attempted deflection . Our differing views on Vortices several years ago somehow affects this matter ? Apologies for my near photographic memory .

Read the research paper or put up .

Your dismissal of things is in itself only their proof if you are a sufferer from the Messiah Complex .
I prefer factual evidence , reasoned support , testimony . Give them a try .

Must dash . One of the kids is choking -- one down and two to go .
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Old 28th May 2021, 02:39 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Even if you'd pick a picture where he doesn't look stark raving mad, say with other word leaders, he'd look small, defeated and uncomfortable. There's just no way to make the man look presidential.
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Old 28th May 2021, 02:42 AM   #78
Belz...
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Originally Posted by Monica 56 View Post
Your huge problem is not bothering to look at matters before making your pronouncements even though a full reference is available .
How do you know I didn't look into it and just reached a different conclusion?

Your postings here have shown that your "sources" are ridiculously misinformed, or dishonest.

Quote:
You need to be constantly spoon fed as do Gullibles in general . As for even looking at anything outside of your world view comfort zone -- apparently impossible .
What an ironic statement. Do you ever look outside of your usual source of information? The statements you made about the mythical "MSM" indicate that you don't.

Don't accuse others of what you do. It's bad form. As for gullibles...

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Old 28th May 2021, 02:42 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by Monica 56 View Post
Half understood --- but from a corrected English translation .
Which means?

Originally Posted by Monica 56 View Post
More attempted deflection . Our differing views on Vortices several years ago somehow affects this matter ? Apologies for my near photographic memory
How could we have had differing views "several years ago"? You've only been a member for two months. Very suspicious...

Originally Posted by Monica 56 View Post
Read the research paper or put up
What research paper? You haven't linked to any research paper.
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Last edited by smartcooky; 28th May 2021 at 03:18 AM.
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Old 28th May 2021, 02:43 AM   #80
Belz...
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
What Trump is offering has been called Sadopopulism - instead of offering benefits to the Majority, Trump and most Republicans are offering pain to Minorities.
Yeah the Trump platform is "the other is the cause of all our ills. Let's hurt them!"
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