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1st July 2021, 02:58 PM | #1 | ||||
Penultimate Amazing
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Jogging in Georgia while black - The Trial
There is a very big difference... the person in this case actually was committing a serious felony punishable by years in prison, and he was actually caught in the act of committing that felony. In the Santilla Shores jogger case, Arbury, was not committing any crime at all. The McMichaels' and Bryant only thought that he might have been the same guy that might have stolen a gun from McMichaels senior's car some weeks earlier. Here is how you tell the difference. Putting aside for a moment the fact that Arbury was black, and that in Georgia, just being Black is regarded by most Rednecks as a crime in and of itself, which of these two; the person in your story, or Arbury, would have presented probable cause to be detained and arrested by a fair and reasonable LEO, and subsequently charged with a felony? Answer that question, and you answer your question. |
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1st July 2021, 03:02 PM | #2 |
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Reading your summary, my initial reaction was to view the armed chasers in exactly the same way that I viewed the McMichaels' - as overzealous vigilantes who should be condemned for trying to pretend to be the law when they are not.
I still strongly hold that they should NOT have chased the perpetrator with guns. FWIW, I'm pro-gun, and we own several firearms. But you just don't go chasing people with them - they're for sport and for self-defense, not for playing cowboy. That said... I have some comments regarding the spoilered bit. |
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1st July 2021, 04:51 PM | #3 |
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Really?
******* really? "Well IN A TOTALLY DIFFERENT SET OF EVENTS a totally different person committed a crime, so isn't the black guy getting shotgunned down in the street sort of okay?" **** that. **** that so much. And **** "sHOw mE wheRE anYEONe is SAYing ThAT!" even harder. |
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1st July 2021, 05:05 PM | #4 |
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An interesting comparison and a pretty good thought experiment to tease out some of the subtleties. And a good job of not poisoning the well (there was more than enough well poisoning to go around in the post after yours).
An additional difference is not only that they knew the guy committed a crime, but that the crime was in progress on their property. Additionally, a case might be made that they wouldn't have felt safe confronting the guy without weapons and they wanted the behavior to end immediately. |
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1st July 2021, 05:07 PM | #5 |
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1st July 2021, 05:10 PM | #6 |
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1st July 2021, 06:25 PM | #7 |
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Yes, I see your point. I'm not absolutely certain in the eyes of the law, but it makes sense.
It still seems like it's giving the green light for people to go vigilante on chasing down someone if they are certain that he is a criminal and the police would do the same thing. |
1st July 2021, 06:29 PM | #8 |
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1st July 2021, 06:40 PM | #9 |
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I found a link to the story of the Peeping Tom. (It's not the same link that I originally read. This one has embedded video.)
https://nypost.com/2021/06/29/texas-...ghters-window/ |
1st July 2021, 08:32 PM | #10 |
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I still think you don't chase someone with guns unless you're willing to kill them. You don't follow someone off your property with the intent to kill them for crimes that are not death penalty crimes.
Don't know if the crime is death penalty crime? Don't follow them with a gun. Scared for your safety while following? Don't follow them. I feel for the parents here. If I had been that father I might have gone out with a baseball bat and taken my chances with getting charged with assault. Actually I would have wanted to run him down with my car. But I wouldn't. I hope. If you're going to follow them stay back for your safety. Take pictures, get license plate numbers (apparently not applicable in this case), call the cops and get them following as soon as you can. Tell the cops where the guy is. But don't go out with a gun unless you intend to kill, and know that if you do you're likely committing murder. Not just some kind of "technically" murder, but actual murder where you are in the wrong and killed someone. |
2nd July 2021, 04:58 AM | #11 | |||
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Just to bring some balance, here is a story from a few years ago about a father who caught a man in the act of sexually assaulting his 11 year old son, and gave him a brutal beating. (The molester is not a pretty sight on the video)
The father was not charged at all. |
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2nd July 2021, 09:05 AM | #12 |
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2nd July 2021, 01:51 PM | #13 |
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4th July 2021, 03:15 AM | #14 |
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Perhaps. I know for sure that here, while that is the law, getting a jury to convict parents who caught someone sexually abusing their child is a tough ask. The defence lawyer will make absolutely sure that they will do their best to put every juror in the shoes of the defendant - especially if the juror has children of their own. There have been several cases over the years where farmers or homeowners have shot thieves in the act of stealing on their property, and they were either never charged (because the CP knew the chances of conviction were slim to none), of they were charged, and the jury found them not guilty. If I'm ever on a jury for a case like this, the farmer/homeowner is getting a not guilty vote from me right from the get-go. It would take a very convincing argument with an extraordinary set of circumstances to change my mind. |
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4th July 2021, 03:32 AM | #15 |
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4th July 2021, 04:02 AM | #16 |
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If you're not a scientist but you think you've destroyed the foundation of a vast scientific edifice with 10 minutes of Googling, you might want to consider the possibility that you're wrong. Its TRE45ON season... convict the F45CIST!! |
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4th July 2021, 02:21 PM | #17 |
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I have, twice. I (and my wife at the time) were very upset and felt quite vulnerable for a time. But I would not have shot at someone for it, even if I had caught them in the act and had a gun available, unless they were actively threatening me or my family.
But not running away, and I wouldn't chase them with a gun. At least I hope I'd be clear headed enough to not do something like that. |
4th July 2021, 02:34 PM | #18 |
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4th July 2021, 03:10 PM | #19 |
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I would threaten him with a firearm.
If he ran away or left, I would not shoot him or go after him. If, instead of running or leaving, he tried to confront me.. then that is a different story Homeowner not charged https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/cri...with-homeowner Farmer shot thieves stealing a quad bike from his shed... https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/farmer...GFIR3YEWIDEVY/ ... the Police charged him, but after a three day trial, the jury found him not guilty in 15 minutes https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/farmer...GJ6HRB72OJKIA/ As I said, earlier, most times when this happens the police don't charge the farmer/homeowner, and even if they do, its very, very difficult to get a jury to convict. You get someone like me on the jury who can put themselves in the shoes of the homeowner/farmer, and the conviction will fail. There have been a few of these incidents in this country over the last couple of decades. I cannot recall a single occasion when a thief/intruder/burglar has been shot by the property owner, and the property owner has been convicted. |
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4th July 2021, 03:32 PM | #20 |
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I have been part of an armed robbery in a fast food restaurant. At the time, there was a high profile case being tried in the US where someone had shot some suspected criminals.
I found myself thinking that I would be perfectly happy if someone had blown the SOBs that were robbing the place, and holding us hostage while they did it, to kingdom come. On the other hand, I also remember thinking that I hoped no one had a gun and was tempted to try it, because in all likelihood they would fail, at least on the first attempt, and innocent people could be hurt. (Innocent people like me and my girlfriend. My girlfriend was in fact stand about 2 feet away from one of the robbers, who was waving around a gun and telling us to all hold still. If he had decided he needed a hostage, my girlfriend would have been it.) In the Arbery case, I think Roddy and the McMichaels felt the same way.....except they didn't actually have any substantive reason to believe that Arbery was a criminal. In the Peeping Tom case, I learned a few things since I first posted the story. 1. The incident happened at 2:00 am. 2. The Peeping Tom was drunk. 3. I watched the video I linked earlier, and saw the street where it happened. After I learned those things, I wondered if I should have been so quick to assume that the parents' story was actually correct. Was it possible that what actually happened is that a drunk guy was stumbling home from the bar and decided to duck into some bushes and take a leak. The guy survived, so the investigators will no doubt ask a bunch of questions and see if they can find out more about what was going on, but it goes back to what made me start thinking about the Peeping Tom case in connection with the Arbery case? Why was I so quick to believe the parents' story, and congratulate them, when I was so quick to condemn the McMichaels? |
4th July 2021, 03:35 PM | #21 |
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What does any of this have to do with Arbery?
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4th July 2021, 09:00 PM | #22 |
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5th July 2021, 11:24 AM | #23 |
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This is what I find interesting about an international forum.
In my US State, you would be guilty of some rather serious crimes if you pointed a gun at someone who was not an imminent threat to your life. The thief would be a petty criminal in the eyes of the law; you would be the felon. |
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5th July 2021, 11:40 AM | #24 |
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6th July 2021, 01:29 PM | #25 |
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6th July 2021, 02:46 PM | #26 |
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This is a generalisation, and apparently, not true in all states...
WA: Shot and killed unarmed intruder... https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle...ected-burglar/ ... no charges UT: Homeowner shot and killed intruder... https://www.heraldextra.com/news/loc...51c9e7cf2.html ... no charges GA: Homeowner shot and killed intruder... https://www.fox5atlanta.com/news/pol...ntruders-death ... no charges There are literally hundreds of cases just like this in a huge range of US States. They vary between armed and unarmed intruders, intruders confronting homeowners and ones running away, inside and outside the house. No charges against the homeowners seems to be the rule rather than the exception, It varies from state to state, city to city, county to county. It appears to be something of a lottery depending on the DA or the prosecutors' mindset in each jurisdiction. This next one, from California, seems particularly egregious... https://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/...126-story.html The homeowner shot and killed one of two intruders, a woman who was unarmed, and running away. She claimed she was pregnant, but he shot her twice in the back, then dragged her body into his garage in an attempt to lure the other intruder in so he could shoot him too. Yet no charges were laid against the homeowner. "Greer exercised his legal and legitimate right of self-defense when he shot and killed Andrea Miller" - LA County Deputy Assistant DA Janet Moore This is California, a liberal left wing state with stricter gun laws that most. How does that fit into your generalisation? |
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6th July 2021, 03:23 PM | #27 |
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6th July 2021, 03:39 PM | #28 |
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If you're not a scientist but you think you've destroyed the foundation of a vast scientific edifice with 10 minutes of Googling, you might want to consider the possibility that you're wrong. Its TRE45ON season... convict the F45CIST!! |
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6th July 2021, 03:50 PM | #29 |
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6th July 2021, 04:02 PM | #30 |
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Well, to answer your question that you are leaving stand as-is:
Your examples from California, Utah, etc have precisely Jack squat to do with my State, and consequently **** all to do with any generalizations I may or may not have made. Is there a reason you think they should? Also, under my avatar you can see I live on the East Coast USA. California is sort of the West Coast, so all the more reason for you to have known your examples would have meant squat dick to any East Coast generalization. Though it would be reasonable if you had not memorized US geography, which is fair what with you being in New Zealand. . |
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6th July 2021, 04:56 PM | #31 |
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Dear burglars,
There are some things I own that if I caught someone trying to steal from my home I would absolutely stop them with any means necessary, including their death. You don't get to just walk in and steal the things I have worked so hard and damaged my body for over the years, or steal the things that allow me to work and pay for rent and food. Some of these things are either irreplaceable or more meaningful to me than some piece of crap's life. My Winnie The Pooh I've had for 53 years and sitting out in my room is more important to me than a burglar's life. Sorry if you don't like that, but maybe you should reconsider robbing people, because we aren't always logical. I like the threat of death hanging over the heads of would be home burglars. I should consider the safety of someone who would, in a matter of minutes, destroy my life just by walking in and taking stuff? Or worse? Would they value my life if they surprised me in a dark hallway rather than me surprising them? I would have to assume no. Should I wait to see a gun, or just shoot them? Was the burglar considering my life when they decided to break into my home and steal the things I work so hard for? No? Then to hell with them. Literally. I do not own a gun anymore. I do not live in fear. This all has little to do with the thread topic. |
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6th July 2021, 05:05 PM | #32 |
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You're from NZ so this may come as somewhat of a surprise to you, but the state of California is not a homogeneous entity. There are liberals, progressives, conservatives, and outright whacko right-wingnuts. By way of example, the John Birch Society was born in California. More than a few parts of it are hotbeds of foam-at-the-mouth reactionaries. Mebbe NZ is more monocultural, but California isn't like that, despite what conservative talk show hosts might want you to believe. |
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6th July 2021, 05:54 PM | #33 |
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If you're not a scientist but you think you've destroyed the foundation of a vast scientific edifice with 10 minutes of Googling, you might want to consider the possibility that you're wrong. Its TRE45ON season... convict the F45CIST!! |
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6th July 2021, 06:18 PM | #34 |
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Yes, I am well aware of what California is, and is not. I probably know more about the USA than most USAians know about my country.
I was merely commenting on overall probabilities. The probability that liberal and left-wing attitudes prevail overall in states like California and New York are greater than they would be in say, Texas, Georgia or Florida. |
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If you're not a scientist but you think you've destroyed the foundation of a vast scientific edifice with 10 minutes of Googling, you might want to consider the possibility that you're wrong. Its TRE45ON season... convict the F45CIST!! |
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6th July 2021, 09:11 PM | #35 |
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7th July 2021, 05:45 AM | #36 |
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7th July 2021, 05:47 AM | #37 |
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7th July 2021, 07:20 AM | #38 |
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It's going to be a busy fall. The Arbery lynch squad goes on trial in mid October, followed by Rittenhouse's double murder and other felonies trial in early November.
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7th July 2021, 08:13 AM | #39 |
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7th July 2021, 08:24 AM | #40 |
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