|
Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today. |
5th November 2021, 08:25 AM | #121 |
Self Employed
Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 46,649
|
It's the "If there's 100 speeders on the road, 25 black and 75 white, and the cops only pull over the black speeders and none of the white speeders it's not racism because well they were speeding, do you deny they were speeding, let's talk about how they were speeding and refuse to discuss any other context" form of racism.
As you say either laughable doing a terrible job of hiding it racism or really bad math skills. |
__________________
"If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong. |
|
5th November 2021, 08:29 AM | #122 |
Lackey
Administrator
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 113,990
|
|
__________________
“If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago |
|
5th November 2021, 08:30 AM | #123 |
Great minds think...
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 13,903
|
Caught the ass end of opening statements. Seems the prosecution had a bit of an issue staying on point.
|
__________________
“There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss |
|
5th November 2021, 08:54 AM | #124 |
Great minds think...
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 13,903
|
Wow, already asking for a mistrial. I didn't hear what the prosecutor said, but she apparently overstepped the bounds quite a bit.
|
__________________
“There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss |
|
5th November 2021, 08:56 AM | #125 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 35,043
|
|
__________________
Previously known as SuburbanTurkey |
|
5th November 2021, 09:48 AM | #126 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Where the Arrantly Roam
Posts: 26,169
|
And that's what you need to show. A pattern. One cop with a one-off interaction in Albuquerque, comparing with another cop with a one-off interaction in NYC five years later is not establishing a pattern. Police are no more a monolithic group than black people, or white people, or line cooks or any other group.
What would be meaningful is to show exactly what you claim: individuals following a pattern. When we have a story about accused racists, that's what I want to see, the accused's prior interactions with black people. Is this following a pattern? When a white woman won't let a black man bypass a security checkpoint, and it turns out she is freaking married to a black man, I'm going to lean towards "probably not a Klanswoman. Probably a city dweller suspicious of anyone trying to duck a security swipe". Because being married to a black man does not fit the pattern. |
__________________
"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" -Mark Twain "Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet |
|
5th November 2021, 10:04 AM | #127 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 35,043
|
It's not like the world's largest police force ever adopted an explicit policy of harrassing black and brown people who lived in poor neighborhoods.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop-a..._New_York_City |
__________________
Previously known as SuburbanTurkey |
|
5th November 2021, 10:06 AM | #128 |
Self Employed
Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 46,649
|
"Prove it's racism!"
"Is there literally any level of proof that will satisfy you?" "LOL no." Just like I said. Any, literally any, level of plausible deniability is enough for the apologist to declare racism "a strawman hyperbolic overreaction virtue signaling" If your opinion is that you can take 11 of 12 potential black jurors out of a jury pool and a racism motivation still has to be proved, you are not worth talking to. |
__________________
"If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong. |
|
5th November 2021, 10:15 AM | #129 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Where the Arrantly Roam
Posts: 26,169
|
Exactly. Here, you can show a clear, wide pattern with this group of police. So when an Eric Garner gets killed, the needle can fairly be tipped hard in that direction. you could argue it, of course. You could say crime is exponentially higher in these neighborhoods, so police are more suspicious of the population. They may even be familiar with the "random" individuals they are stopping. But at least you have a solid pattern to fall on to have that presumption of guilt.
My argument, as always, is that this presumption does not fairly apply to all cops across the continent, and decades. It doesn't demonstrate ACAB. |
__________________
"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" -Mark Twain "Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet |
|
5th November 2021, 10:17 AM | #130 |
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD
Posts: 34,249
|
|
__________________
There is truth and there are lies. - President Joseph R. Biden, January 20th, 2021 |
|
5th November 2021, 10:18 AM | #131 |
Self Employed
Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 46,649
|
11 out of 12 isn't "a pattern?" In what cuckoo world?
|
__________________
"If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong. |
|
5th November 2021, 10:19 AM | #132 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Where the Arrantly Roam
Posts: 26,169
|
Not sure if this is addressed to anyone, but I'm agreeing with you. 11 of 12 is a damn clear pattern. Confederate flags on the truck of a murderer is a damn clear pattern of racist background. That's why there is no argument about racism, here. It's crystal clear.
The DA still needs to go down hard for this one. She's getting swept under the rug. |
__________________
"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" -Mark Twain "Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet |
|
5th November 2021, 10:20 AM | #133 |
Banned
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 7,583
|
The way it works around here is that even with zero evidence, the burden is always to prove that racism wasn't involved. Fortunately that is not how the justice system works. Normally evidence and that sort of thing are required when dealing with accusation.
This trial, and others, would play out a lot differently under ISF rules, no doubt. They would be starting off with a presumption of guilt. |
5th November 2021, 10:24 AM | #134 |
Banned
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 7,583
|
|
5th November 2021, 10:35 AM | #135 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Where the Arrantly Roam
Posts: 26,169
|
Well, it would be a racism-based strategy, if a practically effective one. I talked to my freshly-Barred NJ lawyer kid about this. She agreed- perfectly legal but transparently reprehensible. Skin color shouldn't factor in when selecting an impartial jury if your case is in the right.
|
__________________
"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" -Mark Twain "Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet |
|
5th November 2021, 10:44 AM | #136 |
Banned
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 7,583
|
Skin color shouldn't matter...in a perfect world.
But, this isn't a perfect world. The implication is something like, "With a good case, no matter how biased the jury, it shouldn't matter." That is just not reality. I bet if the jurors were split 50/50 in race, or even predominantly black, nobody here would be complaining about the demographics of the county as compared to the jury composition. That is because most are already operating under a presumption of guilt. |
5th November 2021, 10:46 AM | #137 |
No Punting
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Not In Follansbee
Posts: 5,781
|
It is like that in a lot of places because they get away with crappy work as some judges will bail them out whenever possible. Plus sometimes every case pleads out and they can go years without being in front of a jury. When they do try something all too often the case is so open and shut that they literally can't screw it up.
When they wind up doing a case with eyeballs on it and/or against a team of well bankrolled lawyers rather than some public defender it can get messy. |
5th November 2021, 10:49 AM | #138 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 35,043
|
You're probably right, our system is so stacked for the prosecution, it's making them soft. When they actually have to run a trial they're tripping over their own dick left and right.
What an easy gig. Throw the accused in jail pretrial and watch as their life falls apart, stack up a bunch of charges to scare the bejesus out of them, offer a lesser sentence in a plea bargain, and have judge rubber stamp it. 8hrs a day just cranking the plea bargain machine. |
__________________
Previously known as SuburbanTurkey |
|
5th November 2021, 11:17 AM | #139 |
Self Employed
Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 46,649
|
So apparently the prosecution just isn't allowed to mention the fact that there was a huge gap in time between the incident and the arrest.
|
__________________
"If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong. |
|
5th November 2021, 11:22 AM | #140 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 35,043
|
|
__________________
Previously known as SuburbanTurkey |
|
5th November 2021, 11:25 AM | #141 |
Great minds think...
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 13,903
|
LoL this attorney is trying really hard to to make the son not look like a complete and total ******* loser!
His landlord sold the apartment he lived in so he couldn't get a new one? Living with mom and dad to save some money. What a douche |
__________________
“There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss |
|
5th November 2021, 11:28 AM | #142 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Where the Arrantly Roam
Posts: 26,169
|
The murder, at least in the case of Travis, is a slam dunk, I would hope (Greg and Roddy might be tougher to prove conspiracy/ murder but will deal with their other felonies).
That ******* DA though, is skating off way too easy for my tastes. Those three (or at the very least, Travis) should have been in a cel that night and charged with homicide in seconds, leaving them to their proofs in later trial. Eta: at least some of the responding police wanted to cuff and process them on the spot, IIRC. |
__________________
"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" -Mark Twain "Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet |
|
5th November 2021, 11:31 AM | #143 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 35,043
|
I'm waiting for more info about this car chase prior to the shooting. Earlier public statements made it sound like there was pretty compelling physical evidence that Roddie struck him with his car during a prolonged cat-and-mouse pursuit.
If that's the case, seems like a pretty straightforward path to finding them all accomplices on the murder, whether they anticipated that's where it was going or not. Travis might be the trigger man, but if they were involved in a criminal attack together, they all hang together. |
__________________
Previously known as SuburbanTurkey |
|
5th November 2021, 11:40 AM | #144 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Where the Arrantly Roam
Posts: 26,169
|
The "system" as you call it, should damn well be color blind. That's exactly the problem. Court rules allow for excusing with cause and without, but doesn't factor in "well we all know how black people will think". And it shouldn't. That unfortunately leaves attorneys a situation ripe for abuse. But I still don't want jurors chosen by skin color, one way or the other.
|
__________________
"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" -Mark Twain "Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet |
|
5th November 2021, 11:54 AM | #145 |
Great minds think...
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 13,903
|
They're not supposed to be chosen by skin color, which is the problem. In this case it just so happens that the only people the defense had issues with seem to be people with darker shades of skin. The judge commented on it, confirmed that it appears to be that way, but said there was nothing he could do because the defense had other problems with the jurors. Kind of sucks.
|
__________________
“There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss |
|
5th November 2021, 11:58 AM | #146 |
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD
Posts: 34,249
|
But it seems clear that the defence was able to do exactly that. They wanted an all white jury, and manipulated the system in an entirely predictable way so that they got most of the way there. Excusing without cause seems to be a big part of the problem, doesn't it?
Dave |
__________________
There is truth and there are lies. - President Joseph R. Biden, January 20th, 2021 |
|
5th November 2021, 11:59 AM | #147 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Where the Arrantly Roam
Posts: 26,169
|
|
__________________
"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" -Mark Twain "Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet |
|
5th November 2021, 12:03 PM | #148 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Where the Arrantly Roam
Posts: 26,169
|
Yes, and addressed to plauge while you were posting. My lawyer kid is always quick to remind me that courts are not about strictly right and wrong, but legal and illegal. The discussion should be focused on how the rules could be changed to prevent abuses like the defense is so clearly taking advantage of here.
|
__________________
"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" -Mark Twain "Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet |
|
5th November 2021, 12:03 PM | #149 |
Banned
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 7,583
|
The prosecution used all 12 of their strikes on white jurors (I wonder why?). The defense struck 13 whites.
Quote:
|
5th November 2021, 12:09 PM | #150 |
Great minds think...
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 13,903
|
|
__________________
“There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss |
|
5th November 2021, 12:11 PM | #151 |
Banned
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 7,583
|
I'm not arguing with anyone, either.
I'm saying it isn't a **** thing to do...it is playing by the established rules. Does anyone expect the defense to be charitable to the prosecution? Change the rules, then. But you still have issues if you are looking at jurors based on color and area demographics. What if the area were only 5% black...would that make for a more fair trial, since the number of black jurors better matched the demographics for the area? |
5th November 2021, 12:12 PM | #152 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Where the Arrantly Roam
Posts: 26,169
|
Yeah, and that's the mess. Its one thing to play the game with street savvy, but another to genuinely want an impartial jury. The last time I served, I went in looking like a whack job that neither side would want. But I didn't stay "in character" when being questioned, and got selected (not a racially charged case). The attorneys evaluated me blind to appearances, as they should.
|
__________________
"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" -Mark Twain "Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet |
|
5th November 2021, 12:21 PM | #153 |
Great minds think...
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 13,903
|
LoL whatever Warp12. I don't scream into the wind.
It's not going to matter. They're going to prison either way, and bickering with you about it makes no difference. The defense got what they wanted. An almost all white jury. Fine, good for them. It's still not going to get them off. The two geriatrics are going to die in prison. |
__________________
“There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss |
|
5th November 2021, 12:28 PM | #154 |
Banned
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 7,583
|
|
5th November 2021, 12:38 PM | #155 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Where the Arrantly Roam
Posts: 26,169
|
Well, yeah, this. Watching posters go through the big show of "look how much I hate racism" is entertaining for a while, but we never get to the nuts and bolts discussion of what can or should we actually *do*, for real, here and now. I thought we were going to finally get there on the recent No more White Saviors, Please thread, but it got awfully quiet over there. Some new shiny #LWB threads popped up, it seems.
Quote:
|
__________________
"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" -Mark Twain "Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet |
|
5th November 2021, 12:41 PM | #156 |
Great minds think...
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 13,903
|
This forum isn't changing a flawed system. The things said here aren't changing a flawed system.
They did it because of racism. The ironic part is that one of the defense attorney's wasn't happy, and bitched that there weren't enough "Bubba" and "Joe Six-Pack" jurors, referring to white men over 40 without a four-year degree. He was actually upset that the jury was mostly white women. The stupidity is strong with this one. That ignorant dink is the next one up for opening arguments I believe too. This is going to be an absolute hoot. ETA: It appears he's delaying his opening statement, if I'm understanding it right? |
__________________
“There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss |
|
5th November 2021, 12:47 PM | #157 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Where the Arrantly Roam
Posts: 26,169
|
"Hey thar, y'honor, shouldn't a true jury of peers be filled wit some Right-thinking good ol'boys?"
*hoists brow up and down rapidly* Eta: the judge actually said to the defense "You have no right to a 'Bubba'-rich jury pool" |
__________________
"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" -Mark Twain "Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet |
|
5th November 2021, 12:58 PM | #158 |
Great minds think...
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 13,903
|
|
__________________
“There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss |
|
5th November 2021, 12:59 PM | #159 |
No Punting
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Not In Follansbee
Posts: 5,781
|
Ironically, shouting racism is the one thing that might bring meaningful change to a flawed system.
This trial has nothing to do with how the system is flawed. This is the system:
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey
|
5th November 2021, 01:02 PM | #160 |
No Punting
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Not In Follansbee
Posts: 5,781
|
|
Thread Tools | |
|
|