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5th August 2021, 10:15 AM | #201 |
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As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves. |
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5th August 2021, 10:29 AM | #202 |
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5th August 2021, 10:46 AM | #203 |
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5th August 2021, 11:09 AM | #204 |
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If I to speculate, I would suspect the highlighted. Without evidence, that is.
I also would not be surprised that the complaint comes from someone who is butt-hurt that the candidate they wanted to get the job was passed over. Again, without evidence, but I've seen that type of thing before. |
5th August 2021, 11:24 AM | #205 |
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As I explained in a subsequent post, I didn't get that from Thermal's post. What I got was him explaining how someone could see the picture as too suggestive. (Though using a description that was over the top enough to distract from what he was trying to illustrate.) I haven't seen him suggest that the request of his superiors was justified.
There are multiple positions that someone can have on this:
Do you get the point? Disputing the possible motive does not equate to either agreeing with the complaint or agreeing with the action taken by his superiors. Two people can say that something is wrong, but for different reasons. |
5th August 2021, 11:48 AM | #206 |
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So I saw the full unclipped image and it is sexualized. Got nothing to do with biracial anything. The wife is reclining wearing a bathing suit and the hubby is just a little above her with the kiss about to happen.
Bad taste for a school photo. |
5th August 2021, 11:57 AM | #207 |
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5th August 2021, 12:03 PM | #208 |
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5th August 2021, 12:04 PM | #209 |
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5th August 2021, 12:04 PM | #210 |
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Would the many others be comfortable had the photo been identical- yet instead of his wife reclining there, a twelve year old girl were duplicating her pose?
If not- why not? It is not an inappropriate photo- but it is definitely a sexualized one. OTOH, ones' social media posts should be held separate from their work situations (much like their religions might be) |
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5th August 2021, 12:05 PM | #211 |
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LoL ok, enough of this nonsense.
First off, even the administrators said that the picture that's being circulated (undoubtedly the one you've seen) wasn't the picture that was an issue:
Quote:
Quote:
I mean, how dare a man kiss his wife on their anniversary? Furthermore, what is ridiculing him teaching our children? You can love your spouses as long as you don't show it? Don't make your relationships public? What is the lesson to be taught to our kids? Just to add to the "this totally isn't racist at all" pile, lets look at:
Quote:
Look, you guys can bandy about all you want on if it's racist or not, but I think what the the Doctor was trying to say is that if you look at everything at once, instead of the each item individually (as is ******* popular, especially here) then a picture is starting to be painted. |
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5th August 2021, 12:46 PM | #212 |
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"I'm not racist, I just have appointed my self a watchdog to make sure people aren't playing the race card to much and lo and behold they are doing it in every single discussion I'm involved in."
Yeah okay. |
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5th August 2021, 12:47 PM | #213 |
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Sheesh, you people.
I get that all of us on ISF are prone to argumentation, but at times like this it just really seems like a cohort is contrarian by default no matter what. The thread started out claiming that the principal was asked to take down these public photos from their facebook page because of racism. Specifically, racism with respect to interracial marriages. Some of us looked at the photos, looked at the rest of their facebook photos, and concluded that this is probably not a case of racism, rather of prudishness. To support that conclusion, we noted that there are many other photos of the couple posted, along with their mixed race child and diverse family. We also noted that the photos that were removed are sexually suggestive. Not erotic, not porn, not overtly sexual... just suggestive. Questions: Do those of you who assumed this to be a racial incident still believe that it is racial in nature? If so, how do you address the other photos of the principal and their wife and child that are available on their facebook page still being up, and not having been requested to be removed? For those of you who do not view those poses as sexually suggestive in any way, do you understand that other people may view them as such? Additionally, do you believe those poses would be appropriate between a parent and child, or between siblings, or between mere friends? |
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5th August 2021, 12:55 PM | #214 |
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That was how it started, yes.
That's the part where your statement failed. As we've learned through my posting, you actually haven't looked at the photos. We haven't seen the photos as they've been taken down and the individuals involved have said that the pictures circulating aren't the problematic photos. So, no, you haven't seen the photos. Also, I figured this would be fairly clear to everyone, if you want to pester someone into quitting, or harass or intimidate them, you generally don't start out with "You guys hired this black man to run our schools? That's terrible! rabble rabble rabble". Of course you don't, that would be stupid. So commenting on the kids would be doing the opposite of their goal. Just because they didn't say racist things doesn't mean the underlying intent wasn't racist. The answer is "I, nor anyone else, knows for sure". In the entire context of the picture, I think it could be and I think there's circumstantial evidence that there could be racist undertones. I've already addressed the rest of the pictures. Racism is rarely blatantly obvious. LoL the **** ? Do I think that if we completely and entirely change the context of pictures that they'll cause a different reaction? Uh, yeah. I do. Is that seriously the standard you're using to judge these pictures? The "would I do it to a child" standard? That's really weird. Like, super weird. Not as weird as Thermal's dolls, but right below it. Lastly, I don't care what other people view them as because that's not how society works. In this specific case the majority of people didn't have a problem with them. We know that because only 1 person complained while tons of other people signed on to a petition that basically amounted to "shut the **** up Karen". |
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5th August 2021, 01:04 PM | #215 |
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5th August 2021, 01:13 PM | #216 |
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What? Is this an argument from technicality, that it doesn't count because we can't directly observe them, and we're only seeing pictures of the pictures?
This is baseless speculation. You're making an argument from an imagined hypothetical... which makes it pretty worthless. What racist undertones do you think there are? Are they based on any actual observations or evidence, or are they merely assumed into being because the person you perceive as having been wronged happens to be black? You're also going with "we don't know, and nobody can know" and using that to defend the position of "it's racist" while dismissing the position of "it's probably not racist". Which is irrational and ridiculous. AS a parallel, you're using "nobody can know" as an argument ins support of "there's a teapot orbiting Mercury" while dismissing "there's probably not a teapot orbiting Mercury". Actually, the change in context is EXACTLY the point. You have stated that there's nothing at all even remotely sexually suggestive about the photos. I submit that your reaction to the change of context belies your own claim. It would be inappropriate to take that pose with a child because the pose is sexually suggestive. It would be inappropriate to take that pose with your parent because the pose is sexually suggestive. It's a pose that would only be considered appropriate between consenting adults... because it is a sexually suggestive pose. Even discounting US prudishness, I submit that if that exact same pose were photographed between a Swedish parent and child, where such prudishness is viewed as outlandish, it would be considered by other Swedes to be inappropriate because it is sexually suggestive. That's exactly how society works, at least a civilized and democratic society. Other people's views are considered. Your view is not the only view that should be given merit. Your statement is patently absurd. Step back a moment, and think about this. Nobody on this site found the photos offensive in any fashion, and none of us think that they should have been removed. That's not the point. The point is that some of us are capable of understanding another person's point of view, even when we disagree with them. Even if I don't think the photos are problematic, I can understand how some other people might. |
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5th August 2021, 01:20 PM | #217 |
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5th August 2021, 01:23 PM | #218 |
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Yeah, I wasn't when I posted.
That adds the issue of employers really should stop evaluating people's social media pages. I'm guessing a parent maybe complained? Maybe the students were looking at it at school. Either way I think the photo has more sex than racism written on it. And I agree for a FB or Instagram image, it's pretty tame. |
5th August 2021, 01:28 PM | #219 |
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5th August 2021, 01:29 PM | #220 |
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No, I clearly said what I meant. We aren't seeing pictures of the pictures. From what I gathered, we aren't seeing the pictures at all. None. They were already long gone. As in we aren't seeing the original pictures in any form.
It's all baseless speculation. Your claim that it's not racist is really just your opinion on the information available. So what you're saying is pretty worthless too. Pestering a man by saying, "Is this the person we want in charge of our kids" because he has a picture of him kissing his wife on their anniversary. Combined with the fact that they're trolling his twitter feed and accusing him of teaching CRT, which he isn't. He's stated there have been repeated instances of him being targeted. In fact, he was called out by name (which is against the rules) and nobody has come to his defense. They seem to be fine with it. But yeah, it's only because he's black. I'm so happy you figured me out. Jesus Christ, are you serious? If I say, "I don't know if it's racist" then I'm saying "it's racist"? Am I getting that correctly? I'm saying I don't know because there's nothing conclusive either way. I'm not ******* dismissing either one of the options. YOU are dismissing that it's racist, absolutely. You're saying that it's not. I'm not doing that. I'm saying I don't know what the intentions of these people are but it certainly seems they're targeting him for some reason. The most recent being CRT but this appears to be an ongoing problem. I'm not addressing this anymore. The hypothetical is ridiculous and absurd. I will say that I don't think it's sexual or erotic or provocative possibly because it's his wife. Couples show each other attention that isn't sexual or provocative that would be considered that way if it were a stranger, child or parent. So, you're right, kind of, but not really. But that's literally exactly what's ******* happening here. Jesus Christ. One person had that view, they reported it, and it caused the Dr. to take the pictures down. That's it, one individual complaint. Several others signed a petition saying the pics were fine. Without even a process he took the pictures down. But go on about patently absurd arguments. In fact, now do one about how you accidentally ruin your own point. Yet you brought it up. Some other people didn't. A person did. Other people thought it was fine. |
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5th August 2021, 01:43 PM | #221 |
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It's worth noting that there are very few "cartoonish racists" left. Any racism will inevitably skirt the border of deniability. Of course no one pointed at his children.
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5th August 2021, 01:54 PM | #222 |
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I'm capable of drawing my own conclusions based on the available evidence. That doesn't mean those conclusions are written in stone, by any means. I'm struggling to see how you feel justified in insisting that my drawing of a conclusion is a "glaring error" here. I mean, if you disagree with my conclusion, and think that the conclusion I reached is a glaring error that's one thing. But that doesn't seem to be what you're saying - it seems that you're insisting that I'm not allowed to draw a conclusion at all.
Just so we're on the same page, do you also feel that the people who have drawn the conclusion that the request for removal of the pictures was racists are also committing a glaring error? |
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5th August 2021, 01:57 PM | #223 |
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This article came out 2 hours ago, so I'm going to correct a few things I've said and address a few others per the new information. (It's an NYT article, wasn't behind a paywall for me, if that matters to anyone.)
At odds with information I've posted based on previous reports, it appears:
Quote:
I also made a claim that no one came to his defense when he was referred to by name. A claim supported by him. This article says:
Quote:
The article confirms that the most recent spat was about CRT and that the Dr. sent out a letter after Floyd died that had mentioned Floyd "added to the growing number of men that have died because of the color of his skin." Racism absolutely plays a role here, the question is how it relates to the Dr. His view towards CRT:
Quote:
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5th August 2021, 02:00 PM | #224 |
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You haven't addressed it at all. You've scoffed at it, mocked the people who proposed the questions, and dismissed the entire concept, but you haven't actually addressed it in any way.
Can you provide some hypothetical scenarios of a pose that would be considered appropriate between consenting adults, but would not be appropriate between an adult and a child or an adult and their parent... which are NOT sexually suggestive? For clarity, something would be sexually suggestive if it is perceived to be referential to sexual intimacy between two people. Not outright porn or boning. But for instance, deep kissing, an intimate embrace, a come-hither look, etc. I will be surprised if you can come up with a scenario for that. |
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5th August 2021, 02:05 PM | #225 |
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I completely addressed it in the part that you left off. Whatever though.
I thought, "I'm not addressing this anymore" was clear. No, I won't. I don't care, Emily's Cat. If you, for some ******* reason, can't accept that I don't view it as sexual, then don't. I really, really don't care. I'm not playing hypotheticals, I don't have to rationalize my view, I'm not creating random scenarios, and I've explained it as much as I'm going to. The fact is 1 person was bothered by it, and you claim you aren't, but won't stop ******* bringing it up for some reason. |
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5th August 2021, 02:45 PM | #226 |
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Plague, you're using your opinion that it is in no way at all provocative or suggesting as an argument to support the interpretation that the reason for it's removal is racist in nature.
You can certainly hold the opinion that you don't personally think it's suggestive. And you can certainly hold the opinion that you believe the picture was removed for racist reasons. But your current argument boils down to "I say it's not suggestive, therefore it cannot possibly be suggestive, therefore the reason must be racist". You are using your own personal opinion as the basis of your argument. Furthermore, you have repeatedly dismissed the question of whether that pose would be considered inappropriate if the actors in it were not two consenting adults who are clearly in a romantic relationship. You tap-dance around it without actually addressing it at all. So at the end of the day, your argument pretty much boils down to "Because I said so" which isn't an argument at all. |
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5th August 2021, 03:01 PM | #227 |
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Yes
Irrelevant. Those others don't show the "revolting spectacle" (to a racist) of a black man kissing his white, blonde wife. I don't give a rat's arse what goes on in the minds of others? Irrelevant, since they are not children or siblings. IMO, in order, the most likely reasons for the complaint are 1. Race-based 2. Both race-based and prudishness 3. Prudishness alone. Based on my experiences with America and Americans (experiences that go back over 45 years) , and including the state where this happened I would rate the chances at 70, 25, 5 in that order |
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5th August 2021, 03:25 PM | #228 |
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I hope you're directing this as Thermal, for instance. Otherwise this is comical.
Quote:
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5th August 2021, 03:25 PM | #229 |
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Yep
Anyone who doubted racism was a big factor in this should not doubt it now after reading this article https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/05/u...ch-photos.html (However, I don't expect the usual "proudly wrong" suspects will be swayed, since nothing will sway them) |
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5th August 2021, 03:27 PM | #230 |
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5th August 2021, 03:51 PM | #231 |
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Huh, to me it looks like he just whispered in her ear.
I just read a news article quote in this thread (several pages back and I can't find it) that said that the person who made this complaint is allegedly one of the people who complained about this teacher teaching critical race theory. Has this been determined to be true or false? And did someone in here complain about teachers in bikinis on their FB pages? What a screwed up country we are. Decapitating someone on TV, blowing someones brains all over the TV screen, not a problem. A nipple? blur it out. A man not kissing his wife? Go get 'em! We have metal detectors in our schools so students don't bring guns. It all kinda makes sense. |
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Why bother? |
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5th August 2021, 04:00 PM | #232 |
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5th August 2021, 04:10 PM | #233 |
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He should be asking for recompense for their use of his copyrighted photos.
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5th August 2021, 04:21 PM | #234 |
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5th August 2021, 04:24 PM | #235 |
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It requires at least a registration for me. I try not to do that just to avoid getting even more junk mail than I already do.
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Could the picture complaint be part of the same overall thing as the other stuff? Sure. Is there something in the article you linked that establishes this? My understanding is that he got a lot of public support over the pictures while there was little or no support for the complaint. The CRT thing, however, was enough to bring a group of idiots to a board meeting to applaud the suggestion of terminating the guy. I would judge it likely that those people are racially motivated. Certainly the people who complained about the George Floyd letter are. (Though I haven't seen the letter or read the complaints.) I will put a caveat on Critical Race Theory, though. I haven't really put a lot of effort into researching it. My understanding is that it's a tool for examining history through a certain perspective. I think there are a lot of those. When I was in college the professors talked about zeitgeist (spirit of the times) a lot in how they were approaching the class. I don't really know how something like that would translate to middle school. Every time I hear an actual history professor talk about it, they seem to characterize it as something that wouldn't be (and isn't) used in elementary school. (As I believe you quoted the principal in this story as saying.) I think that someone is selling some gullible white people a whole lot of B.S. about what's being thought and then labeling it as CRT. The people I've seen complaining about it don't seem to know what they are talking about. |
5th August 2021, 04:32 PM | #236 |
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OK, sorry, but this is a bit silly.
There are a lot of poses in which two people can be that change meaning\appropriateness depending on who they are. The typical wedding picture of stuffing cake into each other's mouth is different if it's kids. Or a kid and an adult. If you replaced his wife with his newborn baby, the picture would convey an entirely different message: father proudly beaming at his new child. I know that, because I've seen that pose. (My daughter is a semi-pro photographer and has taken that picture.) The facial facial expression would be the same, but the context will change the interpretation. A couple holding hands is romantic. A parent and a child, same pose is not. When you change the people who change the context. The variables are too linked to isolate. |
5th August 2021, 04:36 PM | #237 |
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5th August 2021, 04:39 PM | #238 |
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Wait...you don't care about what goes on in the minds of others?
But you are making judgments about what goes on in their mind? (their motivations) So you don't care what they might be thinking, what is important is what you think they are thinking? Just hypothetically, what if it were to occur that you were incorrect about what they were thinking about some topic. When made aware of this, or the possibility of this, would you revise your position or would you continue on with your original judgment? |
5th August 2021, 04:42 PM | #239 |
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[quote=smartcooky;13560766]
Quote:
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5th August 2021, 04:46 PM | #240 |
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