IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags North Korea incidents , Otto Warmbier , US-North Korea relations

Reply
Old 21st June 2017, 03:39 PM   #161
alfaniner
Penultimate Amazing
 
alfaniner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Sorth Dakonsin
Posts: 29,368
Originally Posted by BStrong View Post

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axe_murder_incident

The U.S. Army officers had been part of a work party cutting down a poplar tree in the JSA that partially blocked the view of United Nations (U.N.) observers when they were assaulted and killed by the North Koreans, who claimed that the tree was planted by Kim Il-Sung.[1][/i][/b]
I have a photo of the remains of that very tree. Taken in person. But several years after the fact.
__________________
Science is self-correcting.
Woo is self-contradicting.
alfaniner is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st June 2017, 03:49 PM   #162
Hungry81
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 2,355
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Another one of Kim's Little Helpers......
How'd you figure that? I would have thought providing financial support to Kims terrible reigeme, just like good ol' Otto did would be more helpful to Kim than me calling him evil, but hey, maybe you just have an odd definition of "helper".
Just cause Otto died does not mean I cannot think he was stupid for going, Just like I think that about everyone else that went but didn't get imprisoned.
Hungry81 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st June 2017, 03:51 PM   #163
Hungry81
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 2,355
Originally Posted by SezMe View Post
No, that's not clear at all. Since the family has declined an autopsy, we have only external signs of physical trauma. And those are not at all dispositive due to the length of time he was held.
I guess the family are not thinking clearly at the moment. Its ashame but semi understandable. Lets just hope they don't regret it later on.
Hungry81 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd June 2017, 03:51 AM   #164
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 53,184
Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Not at all. If our system has an X% success rate, that doesn't make it useless, and we can improve it with live-fire tests against N. Korean missiles. Kills two birds with one stone.
And there is no risk to worthwhile human beings, just american military personnel and south koreans.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd June 2017, 04:36 AM   #165
Chris_Halkides
Penultimate Amazing
 
Chris_Halkides's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 11,311
“There are mysteries we cannot fathom”

Some of Warmbier’s friends spoke, as candles glowed in the amphitheater around them, about his brilliance, his adventurousness, his boundless joy, his faith in connection. He was the one to call rather than text, often, for routine plans (even if friends initially found that weird). He was the one to ignore a hand proffered for an introductory handshake with a grin and a tight embrace, saying, “Let’s bring it in,” or “Let’s hug it out!” WaPo link to story by Susan Svluga.
__________________
It is possible both to be right about an issue and to take oneself a little too seriously, but I would rather be reminded of that by a friend than a foe. (a tip of the hat to Foolmewunz)

Last edited by Chris_Halkides; 22nd June 2017 at 06:31 AM.
Chris_Halkides is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd June 2017, 04:58 AM   #166
SezMe
post-pre-born
 
SezMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posts: 25,183
Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
We didn't go to war w/ NK over this in '76:
True. But then we didn't have an idiot for a President.
That said, I agree with Zig - Trump's not going to start a war over this because he doesn't care. After all, how many Muslims live in NK?
SezMe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd June 2017, 05:27 AM   #167
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 56,422
Originally Posted by Hungry81 View Post
How'd you figure that?
Blaming the victim excuses the perpetrator.

Quote:
Just cause Otto died does not mean I cannot think he was stupid for going, Just like I think that about everyone else that went but didn't get imprisoned.
You also called him selfish and a dick. And he wasn't merely imprisoned, he was murdered.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd June 2017, 07:53 AM   #168
Chris_Halkides
Penultimate Amazing
 
Chris_Halkides's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 11,311
Swimming Coach

"Todd Siler, who taught Warmbier in high school, said his youngest daughter, a sixth-grader, watched the doctors talking last week about Warmbier, who had been her swimming coach. The two of them were close; Warmbier loved that every time she surfaced through the water, she had a big, spontaneous smile on her face, Siler said, and used to tease her, warmly, about that." From an earlier WaPo story.

Whatever mistakes he might have made, he does not deserve to be called names.
__________________
It is possible both to be right about an issue and to take oneself a little too seriously, but I would rather be reminded of that by a friend than a foe. (a tip of the hat to Foolmewunz)

Last edited by Chris_Halkides; 22nd June 2017 at 07:56 AM.
Chris_Halkides is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd June 2017, 09:35 AM   #169
Fudbucker
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 8,537
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And there is no risk to worthwhile human beings, just american military personnel and south koreans.
The whole point is containing the risk. What do you do with a mad dog that escapes the yard? Put it down. We can't move Seoul, but we can prevent N. Korea from becoming more dangerous, esp. to us.
Fudbucker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd June 2017, 10:40 AM   #170
Planigale
Philosopher
 
Planigale's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: 49 North
Posts: 6,753
Originally Posted by SezMe View Post
No, that's not clear at all. Since the family has declined an autopsy, we have only external signs of physical trauma. And those are not at all dispositive due to the length of time he was held.
This is a very superficial view - literally.

Yes skin and soft tissue injuries will have healed. There may or may not be scars. BUT, it is very likely that before allowing him to pass away the medical team will have carried out an MRI of the brain at minimum. The pattern of brain injuries will tell you about the mechanism of injury. A good example is how MRI scans identify brain injury from recurrent concussion in boxers or football players. Boney injury would also be apparent, even invisible soft tissue scarring from physical injury. The pattern of brain injury from oxygen starvation is very different from that due to physical injury.

Studies suggest that a full body MRI gives as much information as an autopsy, a full body MRI is an effective alternative in cases where the family do not wish an autopsy.
Planigale is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd June 2017, 03:39 PM   #171
Chris_Halkides
Penultimate Amazing
 
Chris_Halkides's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 11,311
He bought posters

Ria Westergaard Pedersen, 33, who was with Warmbier in North Korea, told the Danish broadcaster TV2 this week that he had been nervous when taking pictures of soldiers, and said she doubted North Korea’s explanation for his arrest.
“We went to buy propaganda posters together, so why in the world would he risk so much to steal a trivial poster? It makes no sense.” link
__________________
It is possible both to be right about an issue and to take oneself a little too seriously, but I would rather be reminded of that by a friend than a foe. (a tip of the hat to Foolmewunz)
Chris_Halkides is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd June 2017, 03:49 PM   #172
Hungry81
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 2,355
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Blaming the victim excuses the perpetrator.



You also called him selfish and a dick. And he wasn't merely imprisoned, he was murdered.
Well he was selfish and a dick. He wasn't in North Korea for the benifit of the people. While there he was providing financial support for an evil oppressive regeime for bragging rights. Just because he ended up getting screwed over by that evil opressive regeime does not turn his selfishness to altruisim.
Hungry81 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd June 2017, 09:08 PM   #173
Elagabalus
Philosopher
 
Elagabalus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 7,051
Originally Posted by Hungry81 View Post
Well he was selfish and a dick. He wasn't in North Korea for the benifit of the people. While there he was providing financial support for an evil oppressive regeime for bragging rights. Just because he ended up getting screwed over by that evil opressive regeime does not turn his selfishness to altruisim.
Blah, blah frikkin' blah ....


ETA: Wooah ... look at me! I'm being all edgy 'n ******!

Last edited by Elagabalus; 22nd June 2017 at 09:10 PM.
Elagabalus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd June 2017, 09:16 PM   #174
mgidm86
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,624
Originally Posted by Chris_Halkides View Post
"Todd Siler, who taught Warmbier in high school, said his youngest daughter, a sixth-grader, watched the doctors talking last week about Warmbier, who had been her swimming coach. The two of them were close; Warmbier loved that every time she surfaced through the water, she had a big, spontaneous smile on her face, Siler said, and used to tease her, warmly, about that." From an earlier WaPo story.

Whatever mistakes he might have made, he does not deserve to be called names.

Oh please give it a rest. Fine he was a gentle giant, great guy, but this is a skeptics board. Do you do this for every thread where someone dies?

- What Korea did to him was beyond terrible.
- Going to North Korea as a tourist, in my opinion, is very stupid. This means, I am calling him stupid. Too bad.

Those statements can both be true.

I can't type what I think about N. Korea here, it would be all asterisks, but that doesn't change the fact.

Stupid is as stupid does, and North Korea sucks.
__________________
Why bother?

Last edited by mgidm86; 22nd June 2017 at 09:17 PM.
mgidm86 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd June 2017, 09:21 PM   #175
Elagabalus
Philosopher
 
Elagabalus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 7,051
Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Oh please give it a rest. Fine he was a gentle giant, great guy, but this is a skeptics board. Do you do this for every thread where someone dies?

- What Korea did to him was beyond terrible.
- Going to North Korea as a tourist, in my opinion, is very stupid. This means, I am calling him stupid. Too bad.

Those statements can both be true.

I can't type what I think about N. Korea here, it would be all asterisks, but that doesn't change the fact.

Stupid is as stupid does, and North Korea sucks.
This goes for U 2:


Ah ... I quote myself ...

Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
Blah, blah frikkin' blah ....

ETA: Wooah ... look at me! I'm being all edgy 'n ******!
Elagabalus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd June 2017, 09:53 PM   #176
SezMe
post-pre-born
 
SezMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posts: 25,183
Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
We can't move Seoul, but we can prevent N. Korea from becoming more dangerous, esp. to us.
How? I'd like to hear your suggestions because many seasoned international experts don't know.
SezMe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd June 2017, 09:55 PM   #177
SezMe
post-pre-born
 
SezMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posts: 25,183
Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
This is a very superficial view - literally.

Yes skin and soft tissue injuries will have healed. There may or may not be scars. BUT, it is very likely that before allowing him to pass away the medical team will have carried out an MRI of the brain at minimum. The pattern of brain injuries will tell you about the mechanism of injury. A good example is how MRI scans identify brain injury from recurrent concussion in boxers or football players. Boney injury would also be apparent, even invisible soft tissue scarring from physical injury. The pattern of brain injury from oxygen starvation is very different from that due to physical injury.

Studies suggest that a full body MRI gives as much information as an autopsy, a full body MRI is an effective alternative in cases where the family do not wish an autopsy.
Was a body scan done? No? Then all of your post is irrelevant and my post remains - unsuperficially.
SezMe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd June 2017, 07:35 AM   #178
Chris_Halkides
Penultimate Amazing
 
Chris_Halkides's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 11,311
NK Tourism

Originally Posted by Chris_Halkides View Post
Normally low-key, The Economist titled their article "The outrageous death of Otto Warmbier." "'HOW safe is it? Extremely safe!' So read the guidance for North Korea on the website of Young Pioneer Tours when Otto Warmbier, a 21-year-old American student, signed up for a five-day trip to North Korea in December 2015."
More from the same paragraph in The Economist: "The travel company based in China is one of a handful that offer tightly marshalled circuits around mostly beautified bits of the impoverished gangster state. 'Despite what you may hear,' it continued, 'North Korea is probably one of the safest places on Earth to visit.'"

From Vox. "At least 16 US citizens have been detained in North Korea in the past 10 years, and three have yet to be released. Warmbier is also not the first nor the only American to have been injured during captivity. But many Americans head there anyway. Simon Cockerell, general manager of Koryo Tours, estimates that some 20 percent of the 4,000 to 5,000 Western tourists who venture to North Korea every year are Americans, according to the New York Times."

From the WaPo: "North Korean leader Kim Jong Un has set a goal of attracting a million tourists to the *Communist-ruled county. Critics have said tourism is a significant source of foreign currency for the regime."
__________________
It is possible both to be right about an issue and to take oneself a little too seriously, but I would rather be reminded of that by a friend than a foe. (a tip of the hat to Foolmewunz)
Chris_Halkides is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd June 2017, 07:53 AM   #179
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 56,422
Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Oh please give it a rest. Fine he was a gentle giant, great guy, but this is a skeptics board.
And? What about skepticism requires the judgmentalism you've shown? It's one thing to conclude that going to North Korea is dangerous, and it was a mistake for him to do so. But you've got no idea what information (or misinformation) he was basing his decision on. Making judgments about the quality of his character in the absence of any such knowledge has nothing to do with skepticism.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd June 2017, 12:26 PM   #180
Fudbucker
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 8,537
Originally Posted by SezMe View Post
How? I'd like to hear your suggestions because many seasoned international experts don't know.
After reading up on this, I've changed my mind. The best strategy is to try and stay one step ahead with our missile-interception program and pray MAD works with N. Korea like it did with the Soviet Union.
Fudbucker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2017, 09:17 AM   #181
Chris_Halkides
Penultimate Amazing
 
Chris_Halkides's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 11,311
Timing is everything

Politico has an article that raises some questions IMO. "The American remembers the North Korean guides concerned and angry. They asked him, “Where’s Danny [Gratton]? Is he drunk? What do you mean he’s gone?” The tourists waited in the square for hours, until their guides eventually returned them to the hotel. Gratton took several taxis and made it back sometime early in the morning, according to the American, who says he saw him walk back into the hotel."
__________________
It is possible both to be right about an issue and to take oneself a little too seriously, but I would rather be reminded of that by a friend than a foe. (a tip of the hat to Foolmewunz)
Chris_Halkides is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2017, 10:21 AM   #182
Chris_Halkides
Penultimate Amazing
 
Chris_Halkides's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 11,311
there is no substitute for doing one's homework

Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Oh please give it a rest. Fine he was a gentle giant, great guy, but this is a skeptics board. Do you do this for every thread where someone dies?
If you had followed my other comments links, you would understand that one reason I posted the comment in question was to document why Mr. Siler may be treated as a knowledgeable source about Mr. Warmbier. Being a good skeptic sometimes means going out and obtaining more information.
__________________
It is possible both to be right about an issue and to take oneself a little too seriously, but I would rather be reminded of that by a friend than a foe. (a tip of the hat to Foolmewunz)

Last edited by Chris_Halkides; 24th June 2017 at 11:48 AM. Reason: edited for improved civility
Chris_Halkides is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th June 2017, 01:22 PM   #183
Chris_Halkides
Penultimate Amazing
 
Chris_Halkides's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 11,311
the deaconess and the tie to the secret society look to be fictitious

"The senior pastor at Friendship United Methodist Church in Wyoming, Ohio, told CNN he did not know the person identified by Warmbier in the KCNA story [the one who supposedly offered a car] as a deaconess there, and said Warmbier was not a member of the congregation." link

"According to a North Korean source quoted by CNN, Warmbier didn't actually steal the banner — he reportedly abandoned it because it was too big to carry away with him." link

Also from the second link: "A spokesperson for the Z Society told CNN no contact had ever been made between the secretive group and Warmbier."
__________________
It is possible both to be right about an issue and to take oneself a little too seriously, but I would rather be reminded of that by a friend than a foe. (a tip of the hat to Foolmewunz)
Chris_Halkides is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th June 2017, 07:20 AM   #184
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 53,184
Think this will impact tourism to north korea? If so will it increase or reduce it?
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th June 2017, 07:35 AM   #185
Mumbles
Philosopher
 
Mumbles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 8,726
How should I say this...

I'm not shocked. I don't know why this guy was in North Korea to begin with.

Okay, to be clear, we're discussing a government that is evil. Dude executes his imagined opponents in new and imaginative ways - including shooting them with anti-aircraft weapons.

It's reasonable to be disgusted at N. Korea, and also to say "well, why even visit there?"

N. Korea's rulers are a problem. This guy did not help. That's not to say he deserved what he got, which he did not.
Mumbles is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th June 2017, 09:00 AM   #186
Bob001
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: US of A
Posts: 16,613
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Think this will impact tourism to north korea? If so will it increase or reduce it?
Since U.S. officials are talking about banning travel to the UK, and at least one of the tour operators has said it will no longer accept customers with U.S. passports, I'd bet tourism will be reduced.
Bob001 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th June 2017, 02:10 PM   #187
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 60,375
Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Since U.S. officials are talking about banning travel to the UK, and at least one of the tour operators has said it will no longer accept customers with U.S. passports, I'd bet tourism will be reduced.
I presume you mean NK instead of UK.......

I suspect legal US Travel for private citizens to North Korea is going to be a thing of the past. It can still be evaded, of course, but at least people will have been warned traveling to NK is a realy, really, bad idea.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th June 2017, 02:22 PM   #188
Trebuchet
Penultimate Amazing
 
Trebuchet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Port Townsend, Washington
Posts: 39,057
Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Since U.S. officials are talking about banning travel to the UK, and at least one of the tour operators has said it will no longer accept customers with U.S. passports, I'd bet tourism will be reduced.
[quote=dudalb;11898783]I presume you mean NK instead of UK....../QUOTE]

But which country has more Muslims? Think about it.
__________________
Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant.
Trebuchet is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th June 2017, 07:18 AM   #189
Chris_Halkides
Penultimate Amazing
 
Chris_Halkides's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 11,311
NK spokesman: we are the biggest victim

At Politico an AP story: "The spokesman also said that "groundless" speculation of torture and beatings could be refuted by American doctors who came to the North to examine Warmbier before his release and allegedly acknowledged that North Korean doctors had "brought him back alive" after his heart nearly stopped.

"While Pyongyang accepted U.S. demands for Warmbier's return on humanitarian grounds, Washington "totally distorted this truth and dared to clamor about 'retaliation' and 'pressure'" on "dignified" North Korea, the spokesman told KCNA.

""To make it clear, we are the biggest victim of this incident and there would be no more foolish judgment than to think we do not know how to calculate gains and losses," the spokesman said."
__________________
It is possible both to be right about an issue and to take oneself a little too seriously, but I would rather be reminded of that by a friend than a foe. (a tip of the hat to Foolmewunz)
Chris_Halkides is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th June 2017, 07:47 AM   #190
TofuFighter
Illuminator
 
TofuFighter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,157
It may have been posted or discussed earlier, but retired judge Michael Kirby agrees that the injury to Warmbier was not a result of torture or beatings.
TofuFighter is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th June 2017, 08:00 AM   #191
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 53,184
Originally Posted by TofuFighter View Post
It may have been posted or discussed earlier, but retired judge Michael Kirby agrees that the injury to Warmbier was not a result of torture or beatings.
No one is going to change their views on this though. Maybe he was an innocent man tortured to death, maybe he was a criminal who died through some other more innocuous cause. No one is going to have their minds changed.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th June 2017, 08:13 AM   #192
Henri McPhee
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Bristol UK
Posts: 4,127
North Korea is communist fascist.
Henri McPhee is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th June 2017, 08:25 AM   #193
Chris_Halkides
Penultimate Amazing
 
Chris_Halkides's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 11,311
A different view of what Judge Kirby said

Originally Posted by TofuFighter View Post
It may have been posted or discussed earlier, but retired judge Michael Kirby agrees that the injury to Warmbier was not a result of torture or beatings.
Here is a transcript of an interview from ABC in Australia. Just skimmed it, but it doesn't sound much like the Daily Mail's take, which seems to be based upon a Sky News interview.
__________________
It is possible both to be right about an issue and to take oneself a little too seriously, but I would rather be reminded of that by a friend than a foe. (a tip of the hat to Foolmewunz)

Last edited by Chris_Halkides; 27th June 2017 at 08:27 AM.
Chris_Halkides is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th June 2017, 09:01 AM   #194
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 53,184
Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
North Korea is communist fascist.
Yes and?
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th June 2017, 10:42 AM   #195
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Antimemetics Division
Posts: 69,914
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
No one is going to change their views on this though. Maybe he was an innocent man tortured to death, maybe he was a criminal who died through some other more innocuous cause. No one is going to have their minds changed.
Have you tried using sarcasm?
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th June 2017, 11:30 AM   #196
Mumbles
Philosopher
 
Mumbles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 8,726
I'm confused.

Why was this guy in North Korea to begin with? We know that that horrible government, why even try for it?
Mumbles is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th June 2017, 11:43 AM   #197
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 53,184
Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
I'm confused.

Why was this guy in North Korea to begin with? We know that that horrible government, why even try for it?
Fun vacation area apparently.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th June 2017, 11:48 AM   #198
Elagabalus
Philosopher
 
Elagabalus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 7,051
Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
I'm confused.

Why was this guy in North Korea to begin with? We know that that horrible government, why even try for it?

I don't know, but apparently as card carrying Librul I'm supposed to make fun of him ...
Elagabalus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th June 2017, 11:59 AM   #199
Chris_Halkides
Penultimate Amazing
 
Chris_Halkides's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 11,311
University of Delaware adjunct professor

Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
I'm confused.

Why was this guy in North Korea to begin with? We know that that horrible government, why even try for it?
About a thousand Americans travel there per year, but I would have to say that it seems a risky proposition to do so. Maybe Otto Warmbier was naive, but I don't believe he actually took anything. He was in the wrong place at the wrong time IMO.
EDT. Attempts to link this incident to white privilege, as one former U of Delaware adjunct professor did, are...questionable.
__________________
It is possible both to be right about an issue and to take oneself a little too seriously, but I would rather be reminded of that by a friend than a foe. (a tip of the hat to Foolmewunz)

Last edited by Chris_Halkides; 27th June 2017 at 12:05 PM.
Chris_Halkides is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th June 2017, 12:03 PM   #200
Mumbles
Philosopher
 
Mumbles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 8,726
Originally Posted by Chris_Halkides View Post
About a thousand Americans travel there per year, but I would have to say that it seems a risky proposition to do so. Maybe Otto Warmbier was naive, but I don't believe he actually took anything. He was in the wrong place at the wrong time IMO.
*If* I were invited, I'd just throw up a middle finger. I find their regime disgusting, and I'll gladly insult them in public.
Mumbles is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:29 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.