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19th June 2017, 10:32 PM | #41 |
Penultimate Amazing
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What NK did to this kid is monstrous. But there was no reason in the world for him to be there. Everyone knows the regime is insane, and it has locked up U.S. citizens previously on false or exaggerated charges. Moreover, the U.S. is actually at war, literally, with NK; the Korean War ended with a truce, but there has never been a peace treaty. This isn't any different from somebody getting kidnapped by warlords in Yemen or Somalia. If you play chicken with a drunken truck driver, it shouldn't be a surprise when you get flattened. The world is full of places where you can have an adventure and still get home.
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19th June 2017, 11:04 PM | #42 |
Lackey
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“If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago |
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19th June 2017, 11:10 PM | #43 |
Non credunt, semper verificare
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19th June 2017, 11:15 PM | #44 |
Non credunt, semper verificare
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I do not think anybody is putting nk off the hook, ultimately they are responsible, you are strawmanning what people says, but neither is the kid off the hook if the allegation are true about trying to remove a sign. That was life ending stupid thing to do. Actually second stupid thing. Going to nk as a tourist was the first one.
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19th June 2017, 11:26 PM | #45 |
Non credunt, semper verificare
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Not curious same happened to me when the us officials wanted a control of what they thought was an invalid passport. The people travelling with you cant see you they dont even know you are getting separated and controlled and you cannot call. I was stuck there 4 hours and my traveller group was asking the police to check where i was.
Separating and no communication is not a special modus operandi as far as i can tell. As for the other objection a few post before, he revognizes that he was not together 24/7 and it is only his assumption the guy would not do that. That is pretty much what family and friends say for any incident out if ghe oridinary. Heck you can find example of that in shooting threads. That is not disculpatory in the least. |
19th June 2017, 11:36 PM | #46 |
post-pre-born
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19th June 2017, 11:55 PM | #47 |
Lackey
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There is no reason for us to believe anything the NK have said about this sad incident since day one.
I am surprised that people still visit there as tourists - don't get me wrong I can understand the curiosity but we know it is probably the most brutal stable regime in the world so you have to know you are taking a huge risk to visit. There is nothing like we would understand to be "due process" or a "rule of law" - you are entirely at the whims of the state's representatives. |
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“If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago |
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20th June 2017, 12:10 AM | #48 |
Non credunt, semper verificare
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True but I would amend it : "There is no reason for us to believe anything the NK have said about this sad incident since day one. " but neither should we assume they lied from zero to end without evidence. So far all we have is NK contention, a probably extracted confession, a video, and a dead person. It does not sound as improbable as you think that he really did something stupid. I saw people of that age do something pretty much as stupid in middle east, risking wo-knows how many lashes and prison.
If you ask me, what is very probable, is that he got beaten by guards , and when they could not wake him up, they kept him in hospital until he was healed enough that it would be ahrd to find evidence of the beating. That is far more probable than sleeping pills and botulism, knowing what the doctor found up to now. We ll know maybe more after the autopsy. The rest is really open. |
20th June 2017, 12:20 AM | #49 |
Philosopher
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While not wanting to defend NK. We do not actually know what happened. The type of brain injury from limited information available sounds like the consequence of oxygen starvation. Possible causes could be attempted suicide by hanging, badly performed waterboarding (a similar death occurred under US interrogation), badly vented heater with consequent carbon monoxide poisoning. What is clear is there is no evidence of actual physical trauma - he was not beaten about the head to cause the injury.
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20th June 2017, 01:06 AM | #50 |
Philosopher
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If any regime in the world deserved a terrorist attack....
long overdue. Masked men in black bomb their airport, bomb the police stations, send mail bombs to government stooges. If only... |
20th June 2017, 02:09 AM | #51 |
Maledictorian
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All of this is moot, since there is really nothing that can be done that wouldn't be worse than keeping the status quo.
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“Don’t blame me. I voted for Kodos.” |
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20th June 2017, 02:12 AM | #52 |
Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning
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Kim just likes messing with us. They pull all kinds of crazy stunts like this in NK. We will never know exactly what happened or why, just that it really makes no sense at all.
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We do these things not because they are easy, but because we thought they were going to be easy. Everything is possible, but not everything is probable. “Perception is real, but the truth is not.” - Imelda Marcos |
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20th June 2017, 02:18 AM | #53 |
Dreaming of unicorns
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Tragic case.
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Stundie - Avoided like the plaque, its a scottish turn of phrase. |
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20th June 2017, 02:19 AM | #54 |
Pi
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I hate to be harsh, but isn't visiting North Korea a bit like climbing Everest?
You do it because it's there. You acknowledge that it's dangerous and some other travelers have not come back, but that's part of what makes 'I went to North Korea' a boast rather than the beginning of a holiday story. |
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Up the River! Anyone that wraps themselves in the Union Flag and also lives in tax exile is a [redacted] |
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20th June 2017, 02:50 AM | #55 |
Nitpicking dilettante
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Soap and shampoo, I have in the past, but they would be thrown away anyway. Wouldn't take a towel or a robe.
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
None of those is comparable to what Warmbier confessed to doing, even leaving aside where he chose to do it. The way he was treated was harsh, of course, and may well have been politically motivated, but larking about on a trip to somewhere like North Korea, especially if you are American, is a good way to get into trouble. |
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The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell Zooterkin is correct Darat Nerd! Hokulele Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232 Ezekiel 23:20 |
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20th June 2017, 03:55 AM | #56 |
Penultimate Amazing
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That car won't start
The fact that there was no wakeup call for him and his roommate from the hotel that morning is odd. IIRC this was in the WaPo story.
According to his confession, an acquaintance from his church was supposed to give Warmbier a car worth $10,000 for the banner. Has this person ever corroborated Warmbier's story? How did this person know that propaganda banners existed? How could Warmbier have read a banner and known it was a propaganda banner and not the directions to the men's room? How did Warmbier get access to a restricted area? How did Warmbier keep the banner hidden from his roommate? I can't make his confession work. |
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20th June 2017, 04:26 AM | #57 |
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We do these things not because they are easy, but because we thought they were going to be easy. Everything is possible, but not everything is probable. “Perception is real, but the truth is not.” - Imelda Marcos |
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20th June 2017, 04:32 AM | #58 |
Penultimate Amazing
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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20th June 2017, 04:34 AM | #59 |
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20th June 2017, 04:37 AM | #60 |
Penultimate Amazing
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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20th June 2017, 04:56 AM | #61 |
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20th June 2017, 05:10 AM | #62 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Well, you can buy the propaganda posters in NK if you want one.
http://www.koreakonsult.com/Attracti...pping_eng.html https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...880846bc25.jpg |
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What a fool believes, no wise man has the power to reason away. What seems to be, is always better than nothing. 2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break? |
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20th June 2017, 05:16 AM | #63 |
Maledictorian
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“Don’t blame me. I voted for Kodos.” |
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20th June 2017, 05:52 AM | #64 |
Orthogonal Vector
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Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin |
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20th June 2017, 05:53 AM | #65 |
Orthogonal Vector
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Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin |
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20th June 2017, 05:54 AM | #66 |
Orthogonal Vector
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Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin |
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20th June 2017, 05:58 AM | #67 |
Orthogonal Vector
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Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin |
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20th June 2017, 06:01 AM | #68 |
Banned
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Bomb Pyongyang. Enough is enough.
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20th June 2017, 06:05 AM | #69 |
Orthogonal Vector
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Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin |
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20th June 2017, 06:11 AM | #70 |
Maledictorian
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even a perfect de-capitation strike, including destroying all nuclear launch-capabilities and most of the artillery would leave the world to feed 25 million of mostly hostile North Koreas. Plenty of them would flee to the South, possibly triggering decades of crisis and violence.
There is simply no scenario that doesn't end in millions dying one way or another. |
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“Don’t blame me. I voted for Kodos.” |
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20th June 2017, 06:29 AM | #71 |
Penultimate Amazing
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More on the supposed used car deal
"In a tearful statement made before his trial, Warmbier told a gathering of reporters in Pyongyang he was offered a used car worth $10,000 if he could get a propaganda banner and was also told that if he was detained and didn't return, $200,000 would be paid to his mother in the form of a charitable donation. Warmbier said he accepted the offer because his family was 'suffering from very severe financial difficulties.'" link
Oh, brother. |
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It is possible both to be right about an issue and to take oneself a little too seriously, but I would rather be reminded of that by a friend than a foe. (a tip of the hat to Foolmewunz) |
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20th June 2017, 06:37 AM | #72 |
Good of the Fods
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20th June 2017, 07:20 AM | #73 |
Penultimate Amazing
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An expensive price to pay for lacking common sense. People seem to throw it out of the window whenever they go on holiday, regardless of whether it's a western capitalist tourist trap, let alone and evil autocratic dictatorship. People do stuff that they wouldn't dream of doing at home, seemingly lulled into some sense that somehow rules and laws don't apply to them, and if they get into "trouble" then their own government will magically wave a wand, make the "trouble" go away, and whisk them home to a hero's welcome.
All that we can hope for is that this is not the spark for the War of Warmbier's Brain. |
20th June 2017, 07:32 AM | #74 |
Penultimate Amazing
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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20th June 2017, 07:40 AM | #75 |
Penultimate Amazing
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the onus is on NK to make a case
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It is possible both to be right about an issue and to take oneself a little too seriously, but I would rather be reminded of that by a friend than a foe. (a tip of the hat to Foolmewunz) |
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20th June 2017, 07:46 AM | #76 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Yeah, sure. The person who prompted Warmbier to his folly must be raring to admit to it! As to propaganda banners, they're often visit in news footage, and are usually heavy on military and/or communist symbolism, rather than text. They're not hard to spot.
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20th June 2017, 08:06 AM | #77 |
Orthogonal Vector
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Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin |
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20th June 2017, 08:41 AM | #78 |
Penultimate Amazing
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"Let's arm ourselves strongly with Kim Jong-il patriotism"
This banner was entirely text. It is said to mean, "Let's arm ourselves strongly with Kim Jong-il patriotism." Could Mr. Warmbier read Korean? How did he get into a restricted area? How would he know that a banner was there? He was not a member of the church, a member of which is alleged to have encouraged him, according to this CNN article. BTW, posters with paintings and text can be purchased in a department store, as a commenter here has documented.
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It is possible both to be right about an issue and to take oneself a little too seriously, but I would rather be reminded of that by a friend than a foe. (a tip of the hat to Foolmewunz) |
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20th June 2017, 08:45 AM | #79 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Music is what feelings sound like "Dulce bellum inexpertīs." - Erasmus |
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20th June 2017, 08:53 AM | #80 |
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