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Old Yesterday, 04:24 AM   #2201
psionl0
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Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
Plus a small number of people have so much Bitcoin that they can easily manipulate the whole market and perpetuate this cycle for a while.
I have analysed this statement many times in this thread and the manipulator inveriably loses money when they try to game prices. Can you tell how they make a profit out of this?

Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
As Ramjet pointed out (as did Buffet and Roubini), in ten years it has done nothing disruptive except burn a lot of coal and make my new video editing computer hideously expensive.
Maybe if you did your own research instead of relying on the words of people who don't know what they are talking about you might discover differently.

For example, many major banks are now using the Ripple and Stellar networks for large scale money movements. They do exactly what is claimed: move money around the world (including currency conversions along the way) in rapid time and at minimal cost. These networks don't rely on "proof of work" for their validations so they don't contribute to global warming.
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Old Yesterday, 05:58 AM   #2202
Craig B
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
That is a strawman argument and you know it.

I challenge you to find any post of mine where I have said anything like that.
Saying that it has always been the same and nothing will be different? How about this?
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
What "bubble mania"?

This is just the same ups and downs that have been happening year after year after year after year. Nothing to see here folks.
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Old Yesterday, 06:56 AM   #2203
Eddie Dane
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
I have analysed this statement many times in this thread and the manipulator invariably loses money when they try to game prices. Can you tell how they make a profit out of this?


Maybe if you did your own research instead of relying on the words of people who don't know what they are talking about you might discover differently.

For example, many major banks are now using the Ripple and Stellar networks for large scale money movements. They do exactly what is claimed: move money around the world (including currency conversions along the way) in rapid time and at minimal cost. These networks don't rely on "proof of work" for their validations so they don't contribute to global warming.
I don't know how mass market manipulations would work. But I think having an influence on the direction of a market yields better results than not having influence.

Ripple/Stellar: I think I agree with you.
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Old Yesterday, 07:29 AM   #2204
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Saying that it has always been the same and nothing will be different?
ftfy.
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Old Yesterday, 07:52 AM   #2205
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In other crypto-news, it seems Venezuela is launching its own, the Petro. Purchase will not be in bolivars, but I wonder what currency sellers will be paid in?

"Venezuela will launch a pre-sale of its commodity-backed "petro" cryptocurrency on Tuesday[today]."
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Old Yesterday, 07:52 AM   #2206
Craig B
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
ftfy.
No you didn't.
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
... There has been bubbles every time. There will be bubbles in the future - just like it has always been.
The future will be exactly like the past, that says.
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Old Yesterday, 09:04 AM   #2207
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You can't make this up ..
http://www.globalcryptopress.com/201...seagal-is.html
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Old Yesterday, 10:03 AM   #2208
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
No you didn't. The future will be exactly like the past, that says.
If you insert new words like "exactly" into a post you can change the meaning of any post. Even then, you couldn't make it mean that always "at any time in the future, as at all times in the past, and regardless of date and level of purchase price, (you) will be able to come out ahead".

You have failed to divert attention away from your claim that this is the absolute final bubble and after that, bitcoin will be no more.
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Old Yesterday, 01:41 PM   #2209
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how could even bitcoin work as currency? in constant dividing?
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Old Yesterday, 01:58 PM   #2210
Dr.Sid
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Originally Posted by kayle View Post
how could even bitcoin work as currency? in constant dividing?
It works like currency for years. If you need it for exchange, price changes do not matter. You convert into BTC, send BTC, the other party converts from BTC. Business done, BTC used.

Also BTC is kinda on the rise again at the moment, so ..
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Old Yesterday, 02:20 PM   #2211
Roger Ramjets
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Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
Also BTC is kinda on the rise again at the moment, so ..
... then it's not much good as a currency because who would to buy anything with Bitcoin when its 'value' is skyrocketing? And when it's crashing, who would want to accept payment in Bitcoins?

Quote:
If you need it for exchange, price changes do not matter. You convert into BTC, send BTC, the other party converts from BTC. Business done, BTC used.
Price changes do matter if the 'currency' is volatile. And what is the point of going through the hassle and expense converting to and from Bitcoin if you can just use a regular fiat currency?
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Old Yesterday, 02:31 PM   #2212
Dr.Sid
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
... then it's not much good as a currency because who would to buy anything with Bitcoin when its 'value' is skyrocketing? And when it's crashing, who would want to accept payment in Bitcoins?

Price changes do matter if the 'currency' is volatile. And what is the point of going through the hassle and expense converting to and from Bitcoin if you can just use a regular fiat currency?
Because Bitcoin provides anonymity. IMHO early adopters valued this feature above all.

And yes, volatility is problem. Steam gave up on Bitcoin .. but after quite long time allowing it for purchases. And there are still many shops which do allow it. So you can't just say 'it will never work as currency' .. it works as currency right now.
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Old Yesterday, 02:43 PM   #2213
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Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
.. it works as currency right now.
Can I buy goods on Amazon using bitcoin, or goods that are priced in bitcoin?

I have £ and € at my disposal yet can still buy stuff priced in those and US$, and maybe in other currencies, though I haven't tried the others. In what way is BC a currency?
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Old Yesterday, 02:50 PM   #2214
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As I said, you could use BTC for charing Steam wallet for some time (they dropped it in December), and you can still use it on our Czech largest e-shop, alza.cz. You don't have prices in BTC, but you have the payment option. I don't use Amazon ..
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Old Yesterday, 03:06 PM   #2215
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Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
It works like currency for years. If you need it for exchange, price changes do not matter. You convert into BTC, send BTC, the other party converts from BTC. Business done, BTC used.

Also BTC is kinda on the rise again at the moment, so ..
convert, convert, convert... into the nasty fiat. why?
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Old Yesterday, 03:08 PM   #2216
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I have euros. I do not convert them. I know the amount. with bitcoin you convert, convert, convert. how could it be achieved that everybody in the world would just count bitcoins? as they are limited in quantity, how would they work as a currency - by constant dividing?
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Old Yesterday, 03:43 PM   #2217
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Originally Posted by kayle View Post
I have euros. I do not convert them. I know the amount. with bitcoin you convert, convert, convert. how could it be achieved that everybody in the world would just count bitcoins? as they are limited in quantity, how would they work as a currency - by constant dividing?
Obviously ?
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Old Yesterday, 03:45 PM   #2218
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Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
Obviously ?
obvoiusly what exactly? i can make more - ???
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Old Yesterday, 04:20 PM   #2219
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Originally Posted by kayle View Post
obvoiusly what exactly? i can make more - ???
Fractions of a bitcoin are tradable. I forget the smallest denomination but it's pretty tiny, like .000001

Though the blockchain energy expenditure makes it problematic.
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Old Today, 12:39 AM   #2220
Roger Ramjets
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Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
Because Bitcoin provides anonymity. IMHO early adopters valued this feature above all.
That could be useful if you are a criminal or member of the tinfoil hat brigade. But for the rest of us...

While Bitcoin may be 'anonymous', it puts all your transactions out there for the whole World to see. If anyone you have done business with leaks your identity then you're done. Imagine if your bank let the whole World view all the transactions in your account, but insisted it was 'anonymous' because they blanked out your name. Would you feel secure?

Bitcoin Transactions Aren’t as Anonymous as Everyone Hoped
Quote:
the way information leaks during ordinary purchases makes it straightforward to link individuals with the Bitcoin transactions they make, even when purchasers use additional privacy protections, such as CoinJoin...

All this will come as depressing news to people hoping to preserve their privacy online. But it will also be music to the ears of law enforcement agencies hoping to track nefarious activities.
That may be one reason criminals are going off Bitcoin.

Quote:
And yes, volatility is problem. Steam gave up on Bitcoin .. but after quite long time allowing it for purchases. And there are still many shops which do allow it. So you can't just say 'it will never work as currency' .. it works as currency right now.
I didn't say 'it will never work as currency', but only 'it's not much good as a currency' - so you can put away the straw man.

Yes, Bitcoin is still being accepted in a few places. But its use as a currency is not growing significantly (if at all). Meanwhile its 'value' and usage costs have risen exponentially - way out of proportion to its adoption by vendors. In comparison to conventional payment methods, Bitcoin is an abject failure.
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Old Today, 01:07 AM   #2221
psionl0
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Originally Posted by kayle View Post
how could even bitcoin work as currency? in constant dividing?
Yes, bitcoin can be subdivided into units as small as 0.00000001 BTC (a "Satoshi").

However, it has been pretty well established in this thread that bitcoin is not practical as a currency because it is volatile, it has relatively long confirmation times, limited transaction volumes and volatile (and sometimes quite high) transaction fees. It it were not for the volatility, overlaying technology could be used to overcome the transaction speeds and fees. You can even use it directly to purchase quite pricey items (like a car).

However, I doubt that a car dealer would want to deal with more than a tiny fraction of their purchases and sales in bitcoin while it is so volatile. They could either see themselves selling stock for a massive loss or see the value of their bitcoin proceeds fall dramatically. (The reverse could also be true but that is not a reason to stake the viability of your business on bitcoin).
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Old Today, 02:50 AM   #2222
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Yes, bitcoin can be subdivided into units as small as 0.00000001 BTC (a "Satoshi").

However, it has been pretty well established in this thread that bitcoin is not practical as a currency because it is volatile, it has relatively long confirmation times, limited transaction volumes and volatile (and sometimes quite high) transaction fees. It it were not for the volatility, overlaying technology could be used to overcome the transaction speeds and fees. You can even use it directly to purchase quite pricey items (like a car).

However, I doubt that a car dealer would want to deal with more than a tiny fraction of their purchases and sales in bitcoin while it is so volatile. They could either see themselves selling stock for a massive loss or see the value of their bitcoin proceeds fall dramatically. (The reverse could also be true but that is not a reason to stake the viability of your business on bitcoin).
Bitcoin needs you as a salesman.
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Old Today, 03:21 AM   #2223
Craig B
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
If You have failed to divert attention away from your claim that this is the absolute final bubble and after that, bitcoin will be no more.
Now cite my words to that effect to which your post is referring. Quote me, where I have written that.

ETA Here is a post of mine to start you off.
Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
It may not die, as I have stated many times. Railways didn't die in 1846. But the bubble will burst and people who bought at bubble inflated prices will suffer irretrievable loss. That is very much the most probable outcome.
ETA2 here's another post from the past.
Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
South Sea peaked at £1000. People who bought it there lost a great deal of money, but the big pop only happens once in each bubble episode. Sometimes a previous small movement is mistaken for the big one, as was March 26 1929 on the NYSE. The big one came in October.

Is the current Bitcoin price fall the Big One? I don't know. Could well be. Hindsight will tell us. Prediction in detail is impracticable, but the general pattern of these events is recognisable.

Last edited by Craig B; Today at 03:33 AM.
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Old Today, 03:25 AM   #2224
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A technical analysis event is transpiring.
A butterfly in times square creates a catastrophe in LA.
We might be seeing this thing implode, I will show my workings.
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Old Today, 04:02 AM   #2225
psionl0
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Now cite my words to that effect to which your post is referring. Quote me, where I have written that.
You have been saying pretty much that since you thought that you were the first poster in this thread to ever find fault with bitcoin.

Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
ETA Here is a post of mine to start you off.
Quote:
But the bubble will burst and people who bought at bubble inflated prices will suffer irretrievable loss.
ETA2 here's another post from the past.
Quote:
....but the big pop only happens once in each bubble episode.
"Irretrievable loss" is very much a euphemism for "end of bitcoin". If the price will never reach a previous level then speculators will lose interest in it. You yourself have predicted a price of "cents".

Incidentally you must have missed the post where I made my position on bitcoin bubbles clear:
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
It's actually quite easy to lose money on bitcoin. Simply buy into it when the price is booming then chicken out when the price nose dives.

Sure, if you wait long enough, the odds are favourable that you will recover your investment (it has happened every single time so far) and you might still possibly end up with a large profit.

Unfortunately, "odds are favourable" doesn't sound that great when you can see your savings evaporating away.
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Old Today, 04:04 AM   #2226
psionl0
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
Bitcoin needs you as a salesman.
Damning with faint praise is not a characteristic of a good sales person.
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Old Today, 04:24 AM   #2227
Craig B
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
You have been saying pretty much that since you thought that you were the first poster in this thread to ever find fault with bitcoin.


"Irretrievable loss" is very much a euphemism for "end of bitcoin". If the price will never reach a previous level then speculators will lose interest in it. You yourself have predicted a price of "cents".

Incidentally you must have missed the post where I made my position on bitcoin bubbles clear:
Cite my words. Now you're talking nonsense. "Very much a euphemism". What sort of rubbish is that?

I wrote "it may not die, as I have stated many times." That wasn't very much a euphemism. No, it was a plain statement. When you are replying to it, I am entitled to insist you respond honestly to what I wrote, and that you don't spout fabrications or delusions.
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Old Today, 05:19 AM   #2228
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Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
Because Bitcoin provides anonymity. IMHO early adopters valued this feature above all.

And yes, volatility is problem. Steam gave up on Bitcoin .. but after quite long time allowing it for purchases. And there are still many shops which do allow it. So you can't just say 'it will never work as currency' .. it works as currency right now.
Add in the cost and time of getting the transaction confirmed. You can see a significant shift in value between when you agree on a price and when the actual transaction goes through.
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Old Today, 05:26 AM   #2229
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
(snip)
Sure, if you wait long enough, the odds are favourable that you will recover your investment (it has happened every single time so far) and you might still possibly end up with a large profit.

(snip)

Your comment provoked an image in my mind.

A skeleton at the entrance of a dusty cave, covered with cobwebs.

Clutched in his hand is a bunch of bitcoins.

The caption: Still waiting.
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