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Old 8th April 2019, 01:14 AM   #1881
CaptainHowdy
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Originally Posted by This is The End View Post
It seems so weird to me that one regular citizen, not elected by anyone, can single handedly cause an entire country to not only have their gun rights infringed but potentially their right to a jury infringed...
You're right about the weirdness of one person--basically a nobody--doing something that has such an impact on an entire country. The thing that's even weirder is that none of the solutions that are being discussed to prevent this from happening again have any chance of working while the one obvious solution that is guaranteed to work--stop importing people from an alien culture into your country--isn't even discussed.

It would be kind of funny in a way. If only the consequences were not so tragic.
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Old 8th April 2019, 01:27 AM   #1882
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
You're right about the weirdness of one person--basically a nobody--doing something that has such an impact on an entire country. The thing that's even weirder is that none of the solutions that are being discussed to prevent this from happening again have any chance of working while the one obvious solution that is guaranteed to work--stop importing people from an alien culture into your country--isn't even discussed.

It would be kind of funny in a way. If only the consequences were not so tragic.
You don’t want Australians to move to NZ? Not that alien either.



Of course I get your point. Victim blaming of a most disgusting type. Shameful.
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Old 8th April 2019, 01:34 AM   #1883
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
Trouble is, he has no incentive to make things easier for the prosecution. In fact if he can make things hard for them then he might get lucky. Like the prosecution making a serious error and so he is found not guilty of serious crimes. And if they do not make any errors he is no worse off then if he pleaded guilty at the start of the process.
While I don't know much about the NZ justice system, I find that unlikely. In Sweden, a serious error on the part of the prosecutor would lead to another trial, with the suspect remaining in jail in the mean time. If the error would lead to a lenient sentence, the prosecutor could appeal to a higher court.
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Old 8th April 2019, 03:21 AM   #1884
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
We have no gun rights in New Zealand. Owning a gun here is a privilege.
With an extraordinary low barrier to acquiring that privilege.
Brenton Tarrant crossed that barrier with a police interview with an online chat friend.
That is an unchallenged fact as I understand it.
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Old 8th April 2019, 06:16 AM   #1885
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
You're right about the weirdness of one person--basically a nobody--doing something that has such an impact on an entire country. The thing that's even weirder is that none of the solutions that are being discussed to prevent this from happening again have any chance of working while the one obvious solution that is guaranteed to work--stop importing people from an alien culture into your country--isn't even discussed.



It would be kind of funny in a way. If only the consequences were not so tragic.
Which "alien culture" just murdered dozens of innocent people?

Announcing a ban on immigration by ethnicity, religion, or place of origin will "other" such groups. This makes the likelihood of another outbreak of violence more likely, not less.

Terrorist groups love it when state repression against marginalized groups gets going. It's a bonanza for recruitment.

Gun enthusiasts were upset at .22rf magazine capacities, but that got tweaked and included. It's a little tougher to work folks up into a murderous frenzy over technical minutiae than wholesale social policy changes with heavy overtones of differential inherent worth of persons for their immutable qualities.

Last edited by Delphic Oracle; 8th April 2019 at 06:22 AM.
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Old 8th April 2019, 06:17 AM   #1886
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Which "alien culture" just murdered dozens of innocent people?

Announcing a ban on immigration by ethnicity, religion, or place of origin will "other" such groups. This makes the likelihood of another outbreak of violence more likely, not less.
He knows that. That's the point of it all.
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Old 8th April 2019, 11:39 AM   #1887
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Originally Posted by This is The End View Post
... but potentially their right to a jury infringed...
You just won dumbest comment of the year - there is zero potential for the right to trial being removed. The fact that I'd gladly dispense with it for Tarrant has as much chance of being enacted as you understanding that there is no "right" to own a gun in NZ.

Or many other countries, all of which have far lower gun death rates than USA.

Coincidence?
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Old 8th April 2019, 01:11 PM   #1888
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Which "alien culture" just murdered dozens of innocent people?
Australian.

Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Announcing a ban on immigration by ethnicity, religion, or place of origin will "other" such groups.
Yeah, but in the case of Australians, I'd be cool with that. I'd even go a step further and ban all arrivals from Australia.

That'd screw up their plans to deport all the Kiwis.
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Old 9th April 2019, 01:42 PM   #1889
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The cops have really got the bit between their teeth now. Desperately keen to make up for something, I'm assuming.

ANZAC Day ceremonies in Auckland alone have decreased from the planned 84 to a measly 26, because the cops can't get security to each one. Or, in their words "adequately resource" security for events.

What is so special about ANZAC events? There are a lot of people in one place, so we must have armed pigs on the scene? Srsly?

There will only be one event with over 2000 people at it - the dawn service at the Auckland Cenotaph.

Yet, we have a school in Auckland with over 3000 kids attending, and they don't suddenly require security. Nor do any of the other 10 schools in Auckland with over 2000 pupils.

I think some people need to calm down a little.
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Old 9th April 2019, 03:14 PM   #1890
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Originally Posted by This is The End View Post
It seems so weird to me that one regular citizen, not elected by anyone, can single handedly cause an entire country to not only have their gun rights infringed
What gun rights?
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Old 9th April 2019, 03:15 PM   #1891
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
You're right about the weirdness of one person--basically a nobody--doing something that has such an impact on an entire country. The thing that's even weirder is that none of the solutions that are being discussed to prevent this from happening again have any chance of working while the one obvious solution that is guaranteed to work--stop importing people from an alien culture into your country--isn't even discussed.

It would be kind of funny in a way. If only the consequences were not so tragic.
You're right, if we hadn't let Australians in, this never would have happened.
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Old 9th April 2019, 03:23 PM   #1892
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
What gun rights?
The ones given by God, duh!
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Old 9th April 2019, 05:17 PM   #1893
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Interesting turn - an Aussie bloke reckons he reported Tarrant to the Australian police a couple of years ago: https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/a...ectid=12220933

More evidence of looking the wrong way? CoI will be interested to follow that up, I expect.
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Old 14th April 2019, 05:42 PM   #1894
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
You're right about the weirdness of one person--basically a nobody--doing something that has such an impact on an entire country. The thing that's even weirder is that none of the solutions that are being discussed to prevent this from happening again have any chance of working while the one obvious solution that is guaranteed to work--stop importing people from an alien culture into your country--isn't even discussed.

It would be kind of funny in a way. If only the consequences were not so tragic.
Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
You're right, if we hadn't let Australians in, this never would have happened.
One person had an impact on a country of 5 million people, 19 people had a much bigger impact on a country with a population of 330 million

NZ hasn't invaded anyone (yet)
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Old 15th April 2019, 01:40 AM   #1895
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Oh, looky here...



Ivanka honouring the victims of the Ethiopian Airlines crash.

I wonder who or what gave her the idea of wearing the headscarf?
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Old 15th April 2019, 02:17 AM   #1896
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
The cops have really got the bit between their teeth now. Desperately keen to make up for something, I'm assuming.

ANZAC Day ceremonies in Auckland alone have decreased from the planned 84 to a measly 26, because the cops can't get security to each one. Or, in their words "adequately resource" security for events.

What is so special about ANZAC events? There are a lot of people in one place, so we must have armed pigs on the scene? Srsly?

There will only be one event with over 2000 people at it - the dawn service at the Auckland Cenotaph.

Yet, we have a school in Auckland with over 3000 kids attending, and they don't suddenly require security. Nor do any of the other 10 schools in Auckland with over 2000 pupils.

I think some people need to calm down a little.
Agreed. Curtailing ANZAC events is a victory for terrorism.
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Old 16th April 2019, 03:51 PM   #1897
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Right at the start of this thread I mentioned Christchurch and why it was a likely place for this to happen there.

Here's some more evidence of why Christchurch isn't like the rest of NZ: https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/112...nto-a-war-zone
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Old 16th April 2019, 04:53 PM   #1898
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Oh, looky here...

https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyfruiucqs...carf.jpg?raw=1

Ivanka honouring the victims of the Ethiopian Airlines crash.

I wonder who or what gave her the idea of wearing the headscarf?
I'm guessing she's in a Coptic church. It's likely what's expected there.
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Old 16th April 2019, 05:36 PM   #1899
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
I'm guessing she's in a Coptic church. It's likely what's expected there.
She is almost certainly in a Coptic Church or a Tewahedo Church... in either case, they are Christian Churches, and Ivanka is Jewish...

My point is, however, why is she kowtowing to their religious persuasions, and why have the usual suspects in this thread not created a ****-storm over the abuse of women by the church?

When the shoe is on the other foot, the usual suspects don't want it to fit.
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Old 16th April 2019, 06:15 PM   #1900
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
She is almost certainly in a Coptic Church or a Tewahedo Church... in either case, they are Christian Churches, and Ivanka is Jewish...

My point is, however, why is she kowtowing to their religious persuasions, and why have the usual suspects in this thread not created a ****-storm over the abuse of women by the church?

When the shoe is on the other foot, the usual suspects don't want it to fit.
I think there were a couple of points when it came to wearing a veil.

1.) In many cases, yes, it would be expected if you went to a funeral at a church to wear clothes in accordance with the occasion. This is what Ivanka was doing and also what the female New Zealand police officer was doing.

2.) There is the more problematic use of the veil as a symbol of solidarity. On the one hand, yes, it looks as though you are identifying with a minority group suffering from persecution meaning that it is solidarity with Islam...but the trade-off is that it ignores the problem that the veil is coercive, and therefore it is at the expense of solidarity with women who do not want to wear the veil.

In a similar way, if you use a flag of a country as solidarity for someone under attack - such as the French flag - you are implicitly accepting or even explicitly supporting the norms or the values of that country. Yet, when there have been bombs in, say, Pakistan, some people on the social medias are quick to ask, "And how come people aren't changing their profile picture to the Pakistan flag?" The answer should be obvious - because people do not want to support the state of Pakistan or the values of the state of Pakistan or the actions of the government of Pakistan which includes death for blasphemy, the funding of Islamic terrorists, the murder and persecution of religious minorities etc...
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Old 17th April 2019, 01:40 AM   #1901
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
She is almost certainly in a Coptic Church or a Tewahedo Church... in either case, they are Christian Churches, and Ivanka is Jewish...

My point is, however, why is she kowtowing to their religious persuasions, and why have the usual suspects in this thread not created a ****-storm over the abuse of women by the church?

When the shoe is on the other foot, the usual suspects don't want it to fit.
"yes but... no but..."
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Old 17th April 2019, 10:01 AM   #1902
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Wearing a head-covering?

I bet her dad barely wants to **** her now
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Old 17th April 2019, 04:18 PM   #1903
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
My point is, however, why is she kowtowing to their religious persuasions, and why have the usual suspects in this thread not created a ****-storm over the abuse of women by the church?

When the shoe is on the other foot, the usual suspects don't want it to fit.
Mostly because Trump in Ethiopia is about as off topic for this thread as you can get. Except maybe for a review of Aquaman, that might be more off topic.

But if you insist, Trump is an idiot. I just hope she didn't go in there if she was having her period or got boinked the night before.

I see that 18 year old nazi kid has been denied bail for showing that video. Bread and water in an unlit cell I hope and, if this is to be believed, then he's got another three and a half months before his trial. You got to get that message out, the progressive government is NOT to be challenged.

In other news...Dude goes nutso in front of the police but they let him go. But wait ! he was dissing Muslims ! The mistake of allowing him his freedom of speech was quickly corrected with the help of the community and he was promptly arrested. I hope those cops who let him go in the first place do some serious time themselves.
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Old 17th April 2019, 04:28 PM   #1904
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
I see that 18 year old nazi kid has been denied bail for showing that video. Bread and water in an unlit cell I hope and, if this is to be believed, then he's got another three and a half months before his trial. You got to get that message out, the progressive government is NOT to be challenged.
The Daily Caller? Nice. I'm sure Tucker Carlson & his pals are an excellent and impartial source.

Unfortunately, there is a little more than video-sharing that caused him to be remanded in custody. He has another charge that the alt-right pinup forgot to share:

Quote:
A second charge alleges that between the 8th and the 15th of March, he showed a photograph of the Deans Avenue mosque with the message “target acquired” and further chat messaging around inciting extreme violence constituting one of the offences.
Link to factual reporting.
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Old 17th April 2019, 04:35 PM   #1905
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
The Daily Caller? Nice. I'm sure Tucker Carlson & his pals are an excellent and impartial source.

Unfortunately, there is a little more than video-sharing that caused him to be remanded in custody. He has another charge that the alt-right pinup forgot to share:



Link to factual reporting.
Are you saying the information is incorrect ? If so, please correct it. The Daily Caller does mention the meme.
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Old 17th April 2019, 04:44 PM   #1906
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
Are you saying the information is incorrect ?
...if he had wanted to say that it was incorrect he would have simply said "it was incorrect".

Quote:
The Daily Caller does mention the meme.
Yet chooses not to mention "further chat messaging around inciting extreme violence constituting one of the offences."
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Old 17th April 2019, 04:47 PM   #1907
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
She is almost certainly in a Coptic Church or a Tewahedo Church... in either case, they are Christian Churches, and Ivanka is Jewish...

My point is, however, why is she kowtowing to their religious persuasions, and why have the usual suspects in this thread not created a ****-storm over the abuse of women by the church?

When the shoe is on the other foot, the usual suspects don't want it to fit.

It's called common courtesy.

And this whole thread has gone off the rails.
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Old 17th April 2019, 04:52 PM   #1908
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Originally Posted by banquetbear View Post
...if he had wanted to say that it was incorrect he would have simply said "it was incorrect".



Yet chooses not to mention "further chat messaging around inciting extreme violence constituting one of the offences."
Oh yes, the further chat messaging, let's hope this punk gets the full 14 years.
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Old 17th April 2019, 04:57 PM   #1909
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
Oh yes, the further chat messaging, let's hope this punk gets the full 14 years.
...unlike you: I hope that, if found guilty, he gets a sentence congruent with established precedent for similar/related crimes in the NZ justice system.
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Old 17th April 2019, 05:10 PM   #1910
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Originally Posted by banquetbear View Post
...unlike you: I hope that, if found guilty, he gets a sentence congruent with established precedent for similar/related crimes in the NZ justice system.
They have to have some pretty damning things against him if they're not granting him bail, right ?

This might become the established precedent.
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Old 17th April 2019, 05:13 PM   #1911
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
They have to have some pretty damning things against him if they're not granting him bail, right ?
...probably.

I'm glad you are coming around to see that there is more to this case than what the propaganda outlets like the Daily Caller are suggesting.

Quote:
This might become the established precedent.
Perhaps.
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Old 17th April 2019, 06:03 PM   #1912
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The Daily Caller was just one of the first links that popped up. I would have gone with The Guardian if there was a recent link. Searching this kid is difficult because the government is keeping his name under wraps.
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Old 17th April 2019, 06:15 PM   #1913
banquetbear
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
The Daily Caller was just one of the first links that popped up.
...there is a reason for that.

Quote:
I would have gone with The Guardian if there was a recent link. Searching this kid is difficult because the government is keeping his name under wraps.
Or you could have clicked the direct link to the AP, which was cited by the Daily Caller, and literally took me less than a second to do.

https://www.apnews.com/793c9d882b0d4bd39e786d90b573f365
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Old 17th April 2019, 06:41 PM   #1914
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Originally Posted by banquetbear View Post
...there is a reason for that.



Or you could have clicked the direct link to the AP, which was cited by the Daily Caller, and literally took me less than a second to do.

https://www.apnews.com/793c9d882b0d4bd39e786d90b573f365
I could have but I was expecting people to click on the links and make their own determination that The Daily Caller was just barfing up Associated Press information.

But Newshub is what appears to be the "factual" and preferred source over and above the Associated Press, which failed to attribute any significance to the mysterious chat messaging.
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Old 17th April 2019, 06:58 PM   #1915
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
I could have but I was expecting people to click on the links and make their own determination that The Daily Caller was just barfing up Associated Press information.
...you can choose to do that: but if you do choose to do that then you should really stop being surprised that people don't take your citations or your arguments seriously. Many won't click on a Daily Caller link out of principle. It isn't that they are just "barfing up Associated Press" information. Its that its "barfing it up" then adding an ideological stance and framing.

Quote:
But Newshub is what appears to be the "factual" and preferred source over and above the Associated Press, which failed to attribute any significance to the mysterious chat messaging.
Newshub is a "factual" and preferred source over the Daily Caller. Even you seem to be to acknowledge this to be a fair assertion to make. Nobody has asserted that Newshub is "more factual or prefered" to the Associated Press.
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Old 17th April 2019, 07:05 PM   #1916
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
Are you saying the information is incorrect ? If so, please correct it. The Daily Caller does mention the meme.
Not incorrect, just incomplete. The second charge that Daily Caller mysteriously omitted is by far the more serious charge.

Originally Posted by Stout View Post
They have to have some pretty damning things against him if they're not granting him bail, right ?

This might become the established precedent.
Nah, just total ignorance of how NZ's justice system works.

There are currently 3316 prisoners held on remand because they aren't eligible for bail: https://www.corrections.govt.nz/reso...arch_2018.html
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Old 17th April 2019, 08:03 PM   #1917
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Originally Posted by banquetbear View Post
...you can choose to do that: but if you do choose to do that then you should really stop being surprised that people don't take your citations or your arguments seriously. Many won't click on a Daily Caller link out of principle. It isn't that they are just "barfing up Associated Press" information. Its that its "barfing it up" then adding an ideological stance and framing.
Are you suggesting that links need to have a certain ideological bent to them before they're actually read ? That one look at the banner will result in an instant dismissal of the provided information as false ? If so, that would be weird for a skeptic's site, a site that's supposed to be about the correctness of the information provided.

Quote:
Newshub is a "factual" and preferred source over the Daily Caller. Even you seem to be to acknowledge this to be a fair assertion to make. Nobody has asserted that Newshub is "more factual or prefered" to the Associated Press.
I'll have to take your word for that but keep in mind, I'm a loooooong way from New Zealand. Post 1904 was a rebuttal citing "factual" reporting and what we really have here is Associated Press vs Newshub with The Daily Caller thrown in as a middleman.
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Old 17th April 2019, 08:08 PM   #1918
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Not incorrect, just incomplete. The second charge that Daily Caller mysteriously omitted is by far the more serious charge.



Nah, just total ignorance of how NZ's justice system works.

There are currently 3316 prisoners held on remand because they aren't eligible for bail: https://www.corrections.govt.nz/reso...arch_2018.html
OK so the chat message it the most serious charge, more serious than, presumably, the 14 years he can get for sharing the video.

Of hose 3316 prisoners held on remand, how many would you say are i there for being an idiot on social media ?
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Old 17th April 2019, 08:27 PM   #1919
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
Are you suggesting that links need to have a certain ideological bent to them before they're actually read ?
...nope.

I said what I said. Perhaps you should stop trying to read stuff into what other people are saying and just believe the stuff that they are telling you.

Quote:
That one look at the banner will result in an instant dismissal of the provided information as false ?
Nobody has dismissed the information contained in the Daily Caller article as "false." Two people have told you this.

Quote:
If so, that would be weird for a skeptic's site, a site that's supposed to be about the correctness of the information provided.
What is weird is your inability to understand what people are telling you.

Quote:
I'll have to take your word for that but keep in mind,
You have stated you would have gone with the Guardian if they had a more recent link. You accept that a link to the Daily Caller is problematic, yet you chose to link to it anyway.

Quote:
I'm a loooooong way from New Zealand. Post 1904 was a rebuttal citing "factual" reporting and what we really have here is Associated Press vs Newshub with The Daily Caller thrown in as a middleman.
Except that isn't what we have here. Nobody (apart from you) has argued that we are pitting the AP vs Newshub. Its a strawman.
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Old 17th April 2019, 08:53 PM   #1920
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So why all the fuss about the link then ?

Quote:
Many won't click on a Daily Caller link out of principle
And the "factual" in #1904 ?
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