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Tags Andrew McCabe , donald trump , George Papadopoulos , Michael Cohen , Mueller investigation , Paul Manafort , Robert Mueller , Trump controversies , Trump-Russia connections

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Old 13th April 2019, 06:18 PM   #3561
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
He's right.
I'm not saying he's not. I'd just like to have a solid source.

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
No, you're missing the point.
"No you!" Very mature.

Quote:
What's to stop someone from obeying the court order and not obeying Barr or Trump?
But that isn't my question. I'm asking what measures exist to FORCE these people to comply.
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Old 13th April 2019, 06:58 PM   #3562
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I'm not saying he's not. I'd just like to have a solid source.



"No you!" Very mature.

But that isn't my question. I'm asking what measures exist to FORCE these people to comply.

Quote:
Congress has three formal methods by which it can combat non-compliance with a duly issued subpoena. Each of these methods invokes the authority of a separate branch of government. First, the long dormant inherent contempt power permits Congress to rely on its own constitutional authority to detain and imprison a contemnor until the individual complies with congressional demands. Second, the criminal contempt statute permits Congress to certify a contempt citation to the executive branch for the criminal prosecution of the contemnor. Finally, Congress may rely on the judicial branch to enforce a congressional subpoena. Under this procedure, Congress may seek a civil judgment from a federal court declaring that the individual in question is legally obligated to comply with the congressional subpoena.
Here's an excerpt from an article that discusses the issue more deeply.

https://www.lawfareblog.com/congress...tween-branches
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Old 13th April 2019, 09:15 PM   #3563
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
...
"No you!" Very mature.

But that isn't my question. I'm asking what measures exist to FORCE these people to comply.
Come on Belz, at least put a minor effort into having a discussion.

There is the DoJ, the IRS, the FBI, the federal courts, the Congress, the OIG, the Trump admin which is pretty slim these days...

Just why are you refusing to acknowledge, let alone discuss the fact Trump and Barr are not in absolute control?
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Old 13th April 2019, 09:47 PM   #3564
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They don't need to be in control.
They just must be able to derail or divide their opposition.
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Old 13th April 2019, 10:26 PM   #3565
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Come on Belz, at least put a minor effort into having a discussion.

There is the DoJ, the IRS, the FBI, the federal courts, the Congress, the OIG, the Trump admin which is pretty slim these days...

Just why are you refusing to acknowledge, let alone discuss the fact Trump and Barr are not in absolute control?
It is a valid question. When presented with court documents on their desk and Trump yelling at them over speaker phone, what will the living, breathing, socially malleable human beings put in the situation of choosing which way to go actually end up doing.

If they refuse to comply, then its the same exact question again when someone is handed court orders to enforce the previously flouted court orders.

It's the same principle that is in effect in a "velvet revolution", will the security services crack down or stay in their barracks? Will the state media stay compliant or go rogue and show the truth on the streets? Will the cabinet line up and make patriotic speeches or resign and flee? Will the high court rule this way or that? Real power rests on institutional pillars that support it, if those pillars are removed (ideally co-opted rather than destroyed), power stands there shouting orders while everyone stares at it with quizzical expressions like the guy on the corner raving about judgment day.
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Old 14th April 2019, 02:55 AM   #3566
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Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
The FBI describes defendant Aleksey Potemkin as a native born 36-year-old Russian male. He is an officer in the Russian Federation's Main Intelligence Directorate of the General Staff (GRU) and is currently believed to be in Moscow..

For those who didn't get the reference:

Originally Posted by wikipedia
[Grigory Potemkin's] rule in the south is associated with the "Potemkin village", a ruse involving the construction of painted façades to mimic real villages, full of happy, well-fed people, for visiting officials to see.
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Old 14th April 2019, 03:29 AM   #3567
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Come on Belz, at least put a minor effort into having a discussion.
That was my point to you. I asked a question, which you didn't answer. I reiterated, and you replied with the thing that caused me to ask the question in the first place. When I pointed out that you were missing the point I was trying to get, you just flipped it back on me. In other words you have not contributed to the discussion in any way. It's a bit rich that you are now asking ME to do that.

Quote:
Just why are you refusing to acknowledge, let alone discuss the fact Trump and Barr are not in absolute control?
What? When did I say or imply that they are? I asked, VERY CLEARLY, what can congress of the court do if the people they subpoena or order refuse to comply. What are the recourses that SCOTUS and Congress have for force the issue? It's a very simple question, and so far other posters have actually made efforts to answer it.
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Old 14th April 2019, 07:33 AM   #3568
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There is information about the Russian hacking garnered from pro-democracy Russian hackers. From Buzz Feed:
Quote:
The bizarre hive of social media activity appears to be part of a two-pronged Kremlin campaign to claim control over the internet, launching a million-dollar army of trolls to mold American public opinion as it cracks down on internet freedom at home.

"Foreign media are currently actively forming a negative image of the Russian Federation in the eyes of the global community," one of the project's team members, Svetlana Boiko, wrote in a strategy document. "Additionally, the discussions formed by comments to those articles are also negative in tone. Like any brand formed by popular opinion, Russia has its supporters ('brand advocates') and its opponents. The main problem is that in the foreign internet community, the ratio of supporters and opponents of Russia is about 20/80 respectively." Link
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Old 14th April 2019, 07:48 AM   #3569
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^A Max Seddon article from 2014?
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Old 14th April 2019, 08:18 AM   #3570
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It's still going on. This is from the webzine Foreign Policy:
Quote:
Hacked and leaked Russian materials have in recent years exposed some of its government’s most controversial policies, including documenting Moscow’s control over separatists operating in eastern Ukraine, attempts by the Kremlin to influence the Russian media, and the existence of a paid army of pro-President Vladimir Putin bloggers working for the now-infamous Internet Research Agency. Link
There was another big leak this past January. From Al Jazeera.
Quote:
Investigative journalist Roman Dobrokhotov told Al Jazeera that the most interesting hacks were of the Russian Presidential Administration, which "added to the transparency of the Russian government system." He said: "We found all the structure, how the government controls media in Russia, how they spread their messages through members of parliament and loyal TV channels or newspapers. How they start criminal investigations against [the] opposition or journalists without any real basis." Link
The context is, how dangerous and malicious the Russian government can be, and that therefore the Russian involvement in the 2016 campaign had to be investigated. For Trump not to know this, or worse, refuse to acknowledge it for political reasons, is completely irresponsible. To have compounded it by repeatedly calling the Mueller investigation a witch hunt, is recklessly irresponsible.

I look forward to joining many millions of my fellow Americans on 11/3/2020 and sending the following message to The Dunce: You're fired!
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Old 14th April 2019, 08:33 AM   #3571
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
That was my point to you. I asked a question, which you didn't answer. I reiterated, and you replied with the thing that caused me to ask the question in the first place. When I pointed out that you were missing the point I was trying to get, you just flipped it back on me. In other words you have not contributed to the discussion in any way. It's a bit rich that you are now asking ME to do that.

What? When did I say or imply that they are? I asked, VERY CLEARLY, what can congress of the court do if the people they subpoena or order refuse to comply. What are the recourses that SCOTUS and Congress have for force the issue? It's a very simple question, and so far other posters have actually made efforts to answer it.
And I VERY CLEARLY answered. Your snark is uncalled for because I didn't realize you were asking an unrealistic hypothetical. It assumes that no one would go against Barr. Why on Earth would that be the case? The AG isn't even as high as the POTUS which the Congress is equal to.
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Old 14th April 2019, 10:45 AM   #3572
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Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
There is information about the Russian hacking garnered from pro-democracy Russian hackers. From Buzz Feed:
Fake News! Sad.
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Old 14th April 2019, 10:57 AM   #3573
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Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
The context is

OK, I get it. Now that Trump collusion is out of the way and significant Russian influence on the 2016 election looks more and more shaky you are making the case for "don't trust the Russians".
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Old 14th April 2019, 11:48 AM   #3574
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Last July. while still Speaker of the House, Paul Ryan said, "Russia...remains hostile to our most basic values and ideals." The problem is, so is Donald Trump.
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Old 14th April 2019, 12:48 PM   #3575
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Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
Last July. while still Speaker of the House, Paul Ryan said, "Russia...remains hostile to our most basic values and ideals." The problem is, so is Donald Trump.

Paul Ryan is a moron and you have yet to find any systemic split between post-Soviet Russia and the US.
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Old 14th April 2019, 01:00 PM   #3576
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I'm almost a bit afraid of asking, @newyorkguy, but what are those most basic values and ideals Russia is hostile to?
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Old 14th April 2019, 01:10 PM   #3577
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Your snark is uncalled for because I didn't realize you were asking an unrealistic hypothetical.
What's unrealistic about it? Trump and his people have a long history of ignoring the law and trying to cheat their way through life. There'd be nothing surprising about them refusing to obey a congressional or court order if they thought they could away with it. So my question is: could they get away with it, or is there a mechanism to force them to comply?

Are you going to answer the question at some point?
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Old 14th April 2019, 01:16 PM   #3578
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
I'm almost a bit afraid of asking, @newyorkguy, but what are those most basic values and ideals Russia is hostile to?

I sniffed applepie and the association was powerful:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
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Old 14th April 2019, 03:07 PM   #3579
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
What's unrealistic about it? Trump and his people have a long history of ignoring the law and trying to cheat their way through life. There'd be nothing surprising about them refusing to obey a congressional or court order if they thought they could away with it. So my question is: could they get away with it, or is there a mechanism to force them to comply?

Are you going to answer the question at some point?


Last time: the answer is they can ask someone else that has possession of the report.

Your hypothetical is unrealistic. But if we ignore that, what you are really asking is what happens if there is a Constitutional Crisis.

538: The 4 Types Of Constitutional Crises - And which ones are most likely to come up during Trump’s presidency.
Quote:
4. Institutions themselves fail.
The Constitution’s system of checks and balances sets the various branches against each other for the laudable purpose of constraining tyranny. However, due to partisan polarization, individual corruption, or any number of other reasons, sometimes the political institutions in these arrangements fail, sending the governmental system into a crisis. This was the type of constitutional crisis commentators were seemingly referring to in describing reports that Customs and Border Protection agents (members of the executive branch) weren’t following orders from the judicial branch.
An example:
Quote:
Had Nixon ignored the Supreme Court ruling ordering him to turn over tapes of conversations he had recorded in the Oval Office, that would have been a huge crisis of this genre. But he didn’t.
But possession of the tapes was confined to the White House, essentially.

In the case of the Mueller report, should the courts tell the FBI or the special council to hand it over, it is unrealistic to believe they would be loyal to Trump and not to the Constitution.
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Old 14th April 2019, 04:21 PM   #3580
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I am going to go out on a limb about the release of the report.
Those who like Trump will claim it exonerates him. Those who don’t like Trump will say it shows he is guilty of both collusion and obstruction but Barr redacted the most damming parts that proved his guilt beyond doubt.
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Old 14th April 2019, 05:30 PM   #3581
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Originally Posted by eeyore1954 View Post
I am going to go out on a limb about the release of the report.
Those who like Trump will claim it exonerates him. Those who don’t like Trump will say it shows he is guilty of both collusion and obstruction but Barr redacted the most damming parts that proved his guilt beyond doubt.
I am going to go out on a limb and say if this part happens someone is going to blow the whistle on it, but people here won't believe this would happen.
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Old 14th April 2019, 06:21 PM   #3582
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
I'm almost a bit afraid of asking, @newyorkguy, but what are those most basic values and ideals Russia is hostile to?
I'll take a wild stab at it... free and fair elections, multi-party democracy, freedom of the press, freedom of speech, respect for international borders. That sort of stuff.
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Old 14th April 2019, 06:25 PM   #3583
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Originally Posted by eeyore1954 View Post
I am going to go out on a limb about the release of the report.
Those who like Trump will claim it exonerates him. Those who don’t like Trump will say it shows he is guilty of both collusion and obstruction but Barr redacted the most damming parts that proved his guilt beyond doubt.
You are not out on a limb. This is the most likely scenario.
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Old 14th April 2019, 06:26 PM   #3584
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
I am going to go out on a limb and say if this part happens someone is going to blow the whistle on it, but people here won't believe this would happen.
One can only hope.
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Old 14th April 2019, 07:44 PM   #3585
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Childlike Empress, you linked a "Corbett Report" Youtube video. This is a source? The guy RationalWiki (mainstream news seems to ignore him) describes as-
Quote:
James Corbett claims to detail scandalous corruption, injustices, and expose conspiracies, psy-ops, black-ops, and the covert "deep-state secret", "ghost politics", globalist control, and domination agendas of the New World Order advocating a "revolution of the mind" to counter-cultural brainwashing dogmas to ultimately foil all centralized govern...
Okay, that's enough of that. If you ever decide to discuss this seriously, please give me a yell.
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Old 14th April 2019, 08:19 PM   #3586
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Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
Childlike Empress, you linked a "Corbett Report" Youtube video. This is a source? The guy RationalWiki (mainstream news seems to ignore him) describes as-

......

Okay, that's enough of that. If you ever decide to discuss this seriously, please give me a yell.
Very fine people on both sides of the discussion.
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Old 14th April 2019, 09:25 PM   #3587
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
I am going to go out on a limb and say if this part happens someone is going to blow the whistle on it, but people here won't believe this would happen.
People where? This forum? No whistle need be blown, there are by now multiple copies of a report that all kinds of people have seen.

Maybe Mueller said obstruction had not been proven - but will be if the Trump administration tries to withhold key findings from congressional investigators

Last edited by Minoosh; 14th April 2019 at 09:28 PM.
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Old 15th April 2019, 01:05 AM   #3588
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https://twitter.com/ThisWeekABC/stat...25338911318016

Quote:
The White House has been briefed on the Mueller report and "there is significant concern on the president's team about what will be in this report," and "what worries them most is what Don McGahn told the special counsel," @jonkarl reports https://abcn.ws/2VyOgpQ #ThisWeek
Video embedded in tweet.
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Old 15th April 2019, 02:27 AM   #3589
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Last time: the answer is they can ask someone else that has possession of the report.
That's not an answer to that question. It's an answer to a completely different question, which is: "How can they get the report if not through those people?", which I didn't aks.

Quote:
Your hypothetical is unrealistic.
Again: it's not unrealistic given the people we are discussing. Stop nay-saying me reflexively.

Quote:
But if we ignore that, what you are really asking is what happens if there is a Constitutional Crisis.
See how easy that was? Why not say that right off the bat?
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Old 15th April 2019, 03:20 AM   #3590
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
That was a joke. And obviously so.
We're hearing this more and more as an excuse for Trump's association with illegal actions. Sanders is currently floating the "it was a joke!" excuse for how Trump could promote Wikileaks incessantly during the campaign and yet now Trump knows nothing about Wikileaks.

She's not saying that Trump is joking now about knowing nothing about Wikileaks. She's saying he was joking during the campaign about loving Wikileaks over and over and he genuinely knows nothing about the organization now.

To be fair, though, it is at least a laughable excuse.
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Old 15th April 2019, 03:53 AM   #3591
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Maybe when you're President of the United States, you shouldn't make silly jokes all the time. Especially when you use said joking MO as a universal get-out-of-jail-free-card to excuse all the times you say something you genuenly shouldn't.
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Old 15th April 2019, 04:20 AM   #3592
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
We're hearing this more and more as an excuse for Trump's association with illegal actions. Sanders is currently floating the "it was a joke!" excuse for how Trump could promote Wikileaks incessantly during the campaign and yet now Trump knows nothing about Wikileaks.

She's not saying that Trump is joking now about knowing nothing about Wikileaks. She's saying he was joking during the campaign about loving Wikileaks over and over and he genuinely knows nothing about the organization now.

To be fair, though, it is at least a laughable excuse.
Famous line that appears in almost all court cases where a witness has changed their testimony...

"Were you lying then, or are you lying now, and how can we tell?"
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Old 15th April 2019, 04:30 AM   #3593
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Has Trump ever owned up to be "just joking" about these things?

I don't think he has, because he is sincere when he says them. It's his apologists that make up the "he's just joking" lie.
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Old 15th April 2019, 04:46 AM   #3594
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As posted up thread, the White House is worried about what former White House counsel Donald McGahn told the Mueller investigation during more than thirty hours of testimony. How much of McGahn's testimony will be quoted in the Mueller report released to the public. Particular concern involves the president's efforts to obstruct justice. McGahn spent many hours with Trump in discussions about things like firing James Comey and even firing Robert Mueller. The fear is that McGahn may have referred to incendiary comments Trump may have made. Below are quotes from a New York Times article published last August.

Quote:
Even if the president did nothing wrong, Mr. Burck told White House lawyers, the White House has to understand that a client like Mr. Trump probably made politically damaging statements to Mr. McGahn as he weighed whether to intervene in the Russia investigation.

At the same time, Mr. Trump was blaming Mr. McGahn for his legal woes, yet encouraging him to speak to investigators. Mr. McGahn and his lawyer grew suspicious. They began telling associates that they had concluded that the president had decided to let Mr. McGahn take the fall for decisions that could be construed as obstruction of justice, like the Comey firing, by telling the special counsel that he was only following shoddy legal advice from Mr. McGahn. Worried that Mr. Trump would ultimately blame him in the inquiry, Mr. McGahn told people he was determined to avoid the fate of the White House counsel for President Richard M. Nixon, John W. Dean, who pleaded guilty to conspiracy to obstruct justice in the Watergate scandal. Link
As another sign of how unprepared and inept the Trump administration often is, no one in the administration attempted to "debrief" McGahn last year, following his testimony. To find out what exactly he had been asked, what he had told Mueller, in order to come up with strategies to defend against it.
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Old 15th April 2019, 05:37 AM   #3595
dasmiller
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Has Trump ever owned up to be "just joking" about these things?

I don't think he has, because he is sincere when he says them. It's his apologists that make up the "he's just joking" lie.
He's personally claimed that he was joking about asking the Russians for Hillary's emails and about his claim that global warming was a Chinese hoax.

IMO, in both cases, he was simply trying to have it both ways. With the email thing, he really wanted the Russians to give him the emails but didn't want the blame for actually asking for them. With global warming, well:
Quote:
I know much about climate change. I'd be — received environmental awards. And I often joke that this is done for the benefit of China. Obviously, I joke. But this is done for the benefit of China . . .
You decide.



It's possible that the word "joke" means something entirely different to Donald Trump than it does to the rest of us. His use certainly doesn't seem to have anything to do with humor.
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Old 15th April 2019, 06:02 AM   #3596
newyorkguy
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Has Trump ever owned up to be "just joking" about these things?...
CNN reported on comments Trump made when he first "asked" the Russians to find Clinton's missing emails.
Quote:
In his July 2016 news conference, NBC News' Katy Tur asked Trump whether it was a problem to ask a foreign country to interfere in the election and hack an opponent's emails. "I'd like to have them released," Trump said. "No, it gives me no pause ... if Russia or China or any other country has those emails, I mean, to be honest with you, I'd love to see them." Link
That doesn't seem like joking. At other times, a link was posted here previously, he admitted to an interviewer he wasn't joking.
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Old 15th April 2019, 06:18 AM   #3597
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Trump Tweets

Mueller, and the A.G. based on Mueller findings (and great intelligence), have already ruled No Collusion, No Obstruction. These were crimes committed by Crooked Hillary, the DNC, Dirty Cops and others! INVESTIGATE THE INVESTIGATORS!
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Old 15th April 2019, 06:25 AM   #3598
plague311
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Trump Tweets

Mueller, and the A.G. based on Mueller findings (and great intelligence), have already ruled No Collusion, No Obstruction. These were crimes committed by Crooked Hillary, the DNC, Dirty Cops and others! INVESTIGATE THE INVESTIGATORS!
Lol wut?

Mueller, an investigator, had great intelligence but also needs to be investigated?!

This man is a grade A moron.
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Old 15th April 2019, 06:47 AM   #3599
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Lol wut?

Mueller, an investigator, had great intelligence but also needs to be investigated?!

This man is a grade A moron.
Well, his sentence structure and grammar is. I think Trump means "based on Mueller's finding (and [the AG's] great intelligence)".

Why does the AG have great intelligence? Because he is saving Trump's backside, of course.
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Old 15th April 2019, 06:52 AM   #3600
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Well, his sentence structure and grammar is. I think Trump means "based on Mueller's finding (and [the AG's] great intelligence)".

Why does the AG have great intelligence? Because he is saving Trump's backside, of course.
That makes more sense. For the life of me I couldn't parse that statement.
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