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Tags general discussion , Israel issues , Israel-Palestine conflict , Palestine issues , US-Israel relations

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Old 12th April 2019, 05:53 AM   #1481
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Originally Posted by Border Reiver View Post
You mean the president that returned the money of a party to an agreement that resulted in the neutering of any nuclear weapons program MIGHT have had as a means of getting compliance? The one that was working with a number of other nation states to get said deal and to see that said deal was enforced?
It's funny you think the deal actually accomplished that. It didn't.
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Old 12th April 2019, 03:10 PM   #1482
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
It's funny you think the deal actually accomplished that. It didn't.
Only deal you will be satisfied with is "Regime Change".

I have no love for the current regime in Iran, but a attempt to change it by force, a la Iraq, would be a disaster.
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Old 12th April 2019, 03:22 PM   #1483
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Only deal you will be satisfied with is "Regime Change".

I have no love for the current regime in Iran, but a attempt to change it by force, a la Iraq, would be a disaster.
One of the least understood lessons from Iraq is that sanctions can cripple a WMD program, even better than inspections.
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Old 15th April 2019, 01:29 AM   #1484
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
You mean in the way that all Jews are held responsible for the actions of an extremist few? Or how the Jews were treated in Iraq, Yemen, Egypt etc. in the years leading up to and after the foundation of the State of Israel?
Funny how this hardly ever gets talked about.
Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Quite simple, really. The prevailing tactic is to paint the Palestinian Arabs as victims, blameless and innocent, whilst portraying the Israelis and the Jews in general as the embodiment of genocidal evil.
Acknowledging that prejudice, leading to harmful and often fatal results, exists on both sides, would be a useful first step to defusing some of the hatred and tension, and opening a more reasonable dialogue.
This would apply both to those in the Middle East, and their respective supporters around the world.
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Except that no one's done that. In fact, you know I haven't done that, since I mentioned in the post you first quoted that you shouldn't hurt the larger population based on the violent actions of a few. That implies that the actions of said few are violent. Hell, I even put "few" in scare quotes to indicate that there are actually quite a few of them.
No-one? Really? I suggest you have a look at the Arab press. Almost every week there is an article or an op ed about the peaceful, innocent Palestinians and the evil Jews. Or have a look at the memes being circulated on socail media, which push the same message.
I haven't said you personally have done that, and I'm not sure why you think I have. It's not all about you, you know. Maybe you should try to move past your ego and deal with the issue instead.
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Old 15th April 2019, 01:37 AM   #1485
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Yep because giving them rights and treating them as Israeli citizens in a single liberal democratic state is of course the destruction of Israel as the theocratic state it truly is behind the facade of being a liberal democracy. And supporting that facade is the most important thing one can do.
If all Arab Palestinians where to become Israeli Citizens, with full voting rights, then within 5 years Israel would become an Islamic Wafq, and would cease to exist shortly afterwards - either becoming an Islamic State or - more likely - merging with Jordan.

The Jewish population would - at best - become Dhimmi, and at worse would be killed. (or at least driven out).

These are not my words, but are embedded within the Constitution of the PLO.
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Old 15th April 2019, 02:27 AM   #1486
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Yep collective punishment is the way to govern all subject peoples, just ask Reinhard Heydrich. If only they would learn to accept their masters everything would go swimmingly.
The Arab Palestinian's of the West Bank are not subject peoples, nor do the Israeli's require that they be regarded as "masters".

You are projecting a false correlation onto the region.
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Old 15th April 2019, 02:56 AM   #1487
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
If you don't think things can get a LOT worse in the Middle East, you are pretty damn ignorant...or a blind Trump supporter. Of course the two seem to be synonymous.
You right wingers will probably get your major war with the Islamic world. Hope you are happy when the body bags start coming home.
Why on earth would we go to war with "The Islamic World" ? The only 'flash points' at the moment are Iran and the Palestinians, and the Arab world dislikes both of them.

If Jordan or the Syrians (basicly, ANYONE but Jews or Christians) where to invade the West Bank and kill all of the Palestinians, the "Arab World" would barely make a protest.
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Old 15th April 2019, 03:21 AM   #1488
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Whether or not Hamas has the means to carry out their plans is irrelevant to their stated intent to do so. Nor does it excuse it.
No but really it does not excuse attacking and hurting the entire population but that is always a good thing for any occupying force to do and totally fine in international law.
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Old 15th April 2019, 03:22 AM   #1489
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Do please quote me as saying that I am supporting or excusing collective punishment.
It will not be an easy task, because I have said no such thing.
This is yet another example of polarised thinking, which bedevils this topic, and is one of the main reasons why no solution is yet in sight.
To be clear: I oppose collective punishment, be it against Muslims or against Jews. Quite how you got this so wrong is a puzzler.
But you are so great at excusing it.
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Old 15th April 2019, 03:24 AM   #1490
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Quite simple, really. The prevailing tactic is to paint the Palestinian Arabs as victims, blameless and innocent, whilst portraying the Israelis and the Jews in general as the embodiment of genocidal evil.
See here is the thing, one is powerful effective government action sanctioned by the country as a whole through a democratic process that is totally the same thing as a few random criminals. Thus we can totally equate the two and ignore actual results and all that other problematic things. This is why caring about palestinians getting clean water is anti semitic.
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Old 15th April 2019, 03:25 AM   #1491
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Originally Posted by Roofgardener View Post
If all Arab Palestinians where to become Israeli Citizens, with full voting rights, then within 5 years Israel would become an Islamic Wafq, and would cease to exist shortly afterwards - either becoming an Islamic State or - more likely - merging with Jordan.

The Jewish population would - at best - become Dhimmi, and at worse would be killed. (or at least driven out).

These are not my words, but are embedded within the Constitution of the PLO.
Yep clearly apartheid is right.
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Old 15th April 2019, 03:26 AM   #1492
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Originally Posted by Roofgardener View Post
The Arab Palestinian's of the West Bank are not subject peoples, nor do the Israeli's require that they be regarded as "masters".

You are projecting a false correlation onto the region.
Indefinitely Occupied Territory then.
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Old 15th April 2019, 05:52 AM   #1493
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Yep clearly apartheid is right.
If you have a problem with apartheid, why are you supporting the Palestinians?
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Old 15th April 2019, 06:58 AM   #1494
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
If you have a problem with apartheid, why are you supporting the Palestinians?
Yep supporting human rights is just the same thing as supporting apartheid. Clearly wanting someone to have clean water is a fundamental part of apartheid governance.

Clearly one can not recognize human rights abuse against them with out supporting hezbollah in all its opinions. Just like if one criticizes Netanyahu one is clearly Anti Semitic.
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Old 15th April 2019, 07:50 AM   #1495
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Yep supporting human rights is just the same thing as supporting apartheid. Clearly wanting someone to have clean water is a fundamental part of apartheid governance.

Clearly one can not recognize human rights abuse against them with out supporting hezbollah in all its opinions. Just like if one criticizes Netanyahu one is clearly Anti Semitic.
But you don't support human rights. You support one side in a conflict.
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Old 15th April 2019, 08:55 AM   #1496
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
But you don't support human rights. You support one side in a conflict.
I support Islalies getting clean water and 24 hour power as well. But of course like rights for gays or blacks it is a 0 sum game so letting blacks vote is an attack on white people.
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Old 15th April 2019, 10:23 AM   #1497
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ponderingturtle, you forgot to mention the Israeli offshore natural gas.
https://www.rigzone.com/news/signifi...158597-article
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Old 15th April 2019, 11:31 AM   #1498
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
ponderingturtle, you forgot to mention the Israeli offshore natural gas.
https://www.rigzone.com/news/signifi...158597-article
I neither knew about those nor do I think they impact my arguments.

My positions have a few points.

A two state solution is dead because there are no borders that are possible with israeli settlements. So pretending that the end solution is two states just isn't possible.

That viewing Israel as a both a liberal western democracy and a fundamentally jewish religious state are clearly at odds with each other at a fundamental level.

That it is really hard to fault people for hatting someone who has been a multi generational oppressor by this point. And that Israel seems to as a policy simply not care about reaching out to palestinians to give them some kind of alternate choice or possible prosperity of getting back to the things their grandparents had in terms of infrastructure.
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Old 15th April 2019, 01:57 PM   #1499
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What is making the position of Israel difficult, even less tenable, is that its raison d'etre on general principles is to provide a haven from political extremism, particularly on the right. The Israeli state, from a secular perspective, has made eminent sense on that tragic and historical basis.

So Bibi, and his many Jewish and evangelical followers, an odd mix made in fundamentalist hell (Motto: Armageddon? Bring it!), are now palling around with dictators who are friends only for their own reasons, among them Trump, some of whose followers carry certain flags. Fine, if this is strategic sense for Warpath Bibi (Motto: Never an annexation I didn't like. Er, what's Sudetenland?), so be it. In my book, in secular terms, he is erasing the very rationale for the extraordinary step that was the creation of the state of Israel.

Kid with matches lighting them next to a gasoline pump, dang.
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Old 15th April 2019, 02:33 PM   #1500
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Originally Posted by Roofgardener View Post
If all Arab Palestinians where to become Israeli Citizens, with full voting rights, then within 5 years Israel would become an Islamic Wafq, and would cease to exist shortly afterwards - either becoming an Islamic State or - more likely - merging with Jordan.

The Jewish population would - at best - become Dhimmi, and at worse would be killed. (or at least driven out).
Alarmist much?

Quote:
These are not my words, but are embedded within the Constitution of the PLO.
Could you quote the relevant text?
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Old 16th April 2019, 04:38 AM   #1501
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Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
What is making the position of Israel difficult, even less tenable, is that its raison d'etre on general principles is to provide a haven from political extremism, particularly on the right. The Israeli state, from a secular perspective, has made eminent sense on that tragic and historical basis.

So Bibi, and his many Jewish and evangelical followers, an odd mix made in fundamentalist hell (Motto: Armageddon? Bring it!), are now palling around with dictators who are friends only for their own reasons, among them Trump, some of whose followers carry certain flags. Fine, if this is strategic sense for Warpath Bibi (Motto: Never an annexation I didn't like. Er, what's Sudetenland?), so be it. In my book, in secular terms, he is erasing the very rationale for the extraordinary step that was the creation of the state of Israel.

Kid with matches lighting them next to a gasoline pump, dang.
Umm... President Trump is a dictator ? Really ?
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Old 16th April 2019, 04:44 AM   #1502
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
I neither knew about those nor do I think they impact my arguments.

My positions have a few points.

A two state solution is dead because there are no borders that are possible with israeli settlements. So pretending that the end solution is two states just isn't possible.....
Don't you think that the two-state solution died in 1964 when the PLO wrote its constitution, which calls for the unconditional recapture of the land currently known as "Israel", and the destruction of that nation ? No scope for a "two nation" compromise there.

Oh... and the PLO where required to remove those clauses AS A PRECONDITION to the Oslo accords. They promised to do it, but they didn't.

They promised again in 1996... but they didn't.

They lied to President Clinton's face on the Rose Garden, promising that they would do it....

.. but they didn't.

Why would an organisation go to great lengths to preserve those clauses, which survive until today, unless they REALLY meant them ?
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Old 16th April 2019, 05:18 AM   #1503
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
No-one? Really? I suggest you have a look at the Arab press.
Here. In the forum. If you look hard enough you'll find someone who said anything you can imagine, somewhere.
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Old 16th April 2019, 06:57 AM   #1504
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Originally Posted by Roofgardener View Post
Don't you think that the two-state solution died in 1964 when the PLO wrote its constitution, which calls for the unconditional recapture of the land currently known as "Israel", and the destruction of that nation ? No scope for a "two nation" compromise there.
Yep and the existence of Al Qaeda in Iraq was totally a reason to keep the whole country on lock down. We really messed that up totally by trying to give them a government and freedom and repairing infrastructure. Collective punishment is clearly the only solution to terrorism, and we should have declared war on all Iraqis instead of working with them to try to build stability.

We have so much to learn about how to properly occupy a region for ever.
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Old 21st April 2019, 01:28 PM   #1505
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Originally Posted by Roofgardener View Post
Umm... President Trump is a dictator ? Really ?
By wont, most definitely. Has openly mused about being in power for life. Wants a military parade, Soviet-North Korea style. Praises dictators. Does not respect the separation of powers, and treats the Justice Department as his defense lawyers. Only institutions and people stand in his way. So far.
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Old 21st April 2019, 01:58 PM   #1506
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Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
By wont, most definitely. Has openly mused about being in power for life. Wants a military parade, Soviet-North Korea style. Praises dictators. Does not respect the separation of powers, and treats the Justice Department as his defense lawyers. Only institutions and people stand in his way. So far.
Not actually a dictator, then.
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Old 21st April 2019, 11:26 PM   #1507
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Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
By wont, most definitely. Has openly mused about being in power for life. Wants a military parade, Soviet-North Korea style. Praises dictators. Does not respect the separation of powers, and treats the Justice Department as his defense lawyers. Only institutions and people stand in his way. So far.
It always amuses me when people mention the parade thing. The comparison is never to France for some reason, even though France does them, and Trump didn't actually care enough to go through with one.

As for separation of powers, Trump has been quite restrained in his actual actions, if not his rhetoric. If Trump wants to be a dictator, he isn't doing anything to actually get there. No attempts to expand presidential powers, really.
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Old 22nd April 2019, 07:55 AM   #1508
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NewState Solution

Quote:
My positions have a few points.

A two state solution is dead because there are no borders that are possible with israeli settlements. So pretending that the end solution is two states just isn't possible.

That viewing Israel as a both a liberal western democracy and a fundamentally jewish religious state are clearly at odds with each other at a fundamental level.

That it is really hard to fault people for hating someone who has been a multi generational oppressor by this point. And that Israel seems to as a policy simply not care about reaching out to palestinians to give them some kind of alternate choice or possible prosperity of getting back to the things their grandparents had in terms of infrastructure.
#1 -- It is possible that a NewState for Palestinians (NewPalestine) can be achieved without the West Bank.
http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/annou...state-solution

Let me repeat that point: A Palestine State in Gaza/N.Sinai that DOES NOT try to incorporate lands defined within the 1949 cease-fire agreements with Jordan.

#2 -- Hate of the "other" can be redirected towards positive self-evaluation and creating a basis for cooperation and confederation. Israel does indeed reach out in many ways to Palestinians (including supporting the RAWABI project -- probably another thing you know nothing about.)


#3. -- All over the MidEast, the mixing of Religion and State is commonplace.
Why would you hold Israel to a different set of standards than exists pretty much all across the Islamic World?
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Old 22nd April 2019, 08:25 AM   #1509
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
#1 -- It is possible that a NewState for Palestinians (NewPalestine) can be achieved without the West Bank.
http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/annou...state-solution

Let me repeat that point: A Palestine State in Gaza/N.Sinai that DOES NOT try to incorporate lands defined within the 1949 cease-fire agreements with Jordan.
So we start with ethnically cleansing the west bank.
Quote:
#2 -- Hate of the "other" can be redirected towards positive self-evaluation and creating a basis for cooperation and confederation. Israel does indeed reach out in many ways to Palestinians (including supporting the RAWABI project -- probably another thing you know nothing about.)
Doesn't win them elections, taking solar arrays from the Palestinians is what wins elections. See how Bibi keeps winning. That makes effective Israeli opinion clear they like what he is selling.

Quote:
#3. -- All over the MidEast, the mixing of Religion and State is commonplace.
Why would you hold Israel to a different set of standards than exists pretty much all across the Islamic World?
Then it shouldn't try to sell itself as a bastion of liberal democracy and just admit to being a theocratic state. Strip non jews of voting and you will be clear as to what you are.

Of course we shouldn't expect human rights and liberal democracy from Israel it is in the middle east and so should be treated like all other fraud democracies in the region.
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Old 24th April 2019, 05:53 AM   #1510
webfusion
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Let's keep things real, shall we?

"ethnically cleansing" is a very harsh term, with a connotation of Nazi Germany.

In the article I provided, it clearly mentions the following:
Financial and commercial assistance would be granted to any residents of Judea and Samaria wishing to relocate to The New Palestine State.
Consider that today, as in the past, Jews immigrate to Israel with the belief that a better life awaits them here. Their reasons for doing so are varied. Significantly, however, Jews come to Israel voluntarily. They are neither forcibly transferred into Israel as individuals, nor as whole communities.

So too should it be for the Palestinian Arabs of Judea and Samaria.


The idea that Arabs routinely are moving from place to place, seeking work, seeking better opportunities, seeking to build their own Nation/State, is a reasonable and proper suggestion.
How many of todays' Palestinians came INTO Palestine from elsewhere across the MidEast during the British Mandate, to seek work alongside the Zionists who were providing it? Countless tens of thousands, in fact.

Don't talk to me about ethnic cleansing of Arabs. They will be building their own Nation/State, and gathering their people from all over the world to do so, INCLUDING tens of thousands in the hills who want to take advantage of a new situation in their own coastal State.

RAWABI --- Not a single word about that? Instead you complained about the Israeli destruction of a solar array. Well, that solar array was built without a single permit, without so much as a zoning plan for it, and on land that was not designated for it.
The Arabs tried to place their solar panels within Firing Zone 18 -- a military artillery practice range)
http://english.wafa.ps/page.aspx?id=...1791387a29GxBB

...just admit to being a theocratic state.

The elections just concluded show that your point is false.

we shouldn't expect human rights and liberal democracy from Israel...

We should. We do. We get exactly that.
Room for improvement? Yep.

Take a chill pill, and buckle up, bucko.
The "two states" based on the 1949 Armistice Lines?
No.

Let me repeat that. No.

Last edited by webfusion; 24th April 2019 at 05:57 AM.
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Old 24th April 2019, 06:08 AM   #1511
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
"ethnically cleansing" is a very harsh term, with a connotation of Nazi Germany.
No it covers all means of removing an ethnicity from a region. This certain covers any forced relocation of an ethnic group, and that is certainly an important part in preserving the jewish identity of Israel. Can't let to many muslims be citizens or they might have some real political power and that would be totally against everything Israel stands for, which of course in no way is about representative democracy.
Quote:
In the article I provided, it clearly mentions the following:
[b]Financial and commercial assistance would be granted to any residents of Judea and Samaria wishing to relocate to The New Palestine State.
Consider that today, as in the past, Jews immigrate to Israel with the belief that a better life awaits them here. Their reasons for doing so are varied. Significantly, however, Jews come to Israel voluntarily. They are neither forcibly transferred into Israel as individuals, nor as whole communities.
And Palestinians in annexed lands who chose not to will get Israeli citizenship?


Quote:
Don't talk to me about ethnic cleansing of Arabs. They will be building their own Nation/State, and gathering their people from all over the world to do so, INCLUDING tens of thousands in the hills who want to take advantage of a new situation in their own State.
Yep like the trail of tears was to give them their own new nation. Totally not about ethnically cleansing the regions they already lived.

Quote:
...just admit to being a theocratic state.

The elections just concluded show that your point is false.
Yep the two anti islam candidates as the only major ones clearly show a nicely diverse totally not theocratic state. Being a jewish state is the point, as such by definition it is theocratic, or are we just going with ethnostate so we can properly subjugate the wrong kind of jews as well?

Quote:
We should. We do. We get exactly that.
Room for improvement? Yep.
And of course multi generational occupations of subject nations. Totally a thing for liberal democracies.


They always had so much in common with apartheid south africa and knew it, why else did they do so much to break international weapons sanctions on them? So they are taking a page from the same play book and setting up pretend states for their subject peoples. They just get better press around it.
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Old 26th April 2019, 11:01 AM   #1512
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PonderingTurtle, you're all over the place.

Palestinians, in a best-case scenario, will be forming a miniState on just 6205 sq.km of land area.
There is not an inch more than that to be considered.
Do you think such a little speck can survive without the Israeli Egyptian Jordanian triumvirate being closely linked to this NewState? Hardly.
Get with the program, or find another cause to champion.
Let me repeat --- 6205 sq.km. is the MAX.
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Old 27th April 2019, 10:42 AM   #1513
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Israel has indeed ethnically cleansed Palestinian land: when they removed the Jewish settlers from Gaza.
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Old 27th April 2019, 11:07 AM   #1514
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Israel has indeed ethnically cleansed Palestinian land: when they removed the Jewish settlers from Gaza.
"Ethnically cleansed Palestinian land" you state. And how do you, and what right do you have to, determine what is Palestinian land and more that that, who has the right to determine who settles where. Once we get international agreement on that then we can look at the next stage of what will be a long process.
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Old 27th April 2019, 11:21 AM   #1515
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Originally Posted by Zambo View Post
"Ethnically cleansed Palestinian land" you state. And how do you, and what right do you have to, determine what is Palestinian land
Palestinians now control that land, so I'm calling it Palestinian land. I had no part in creating or even affecting that situation. But is my labeling of Gaza, where there are no Jews or Israelis living, as "Palestinian land" really so controversial? Why?

Quote:
and more that that, who has the right to determine who settles where.
Israel determined that Jewish settlers no longer had the right to settle in Gaza, and forcibly removed them. Regardless of your opinion of that event, that it happened is simply a statement of fact.
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Old 27th April 2019, 05:09 PM   #1516
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
No it covers all means of removing an ethnicity from a region. This certain covers any forced relocation of an ethnic group, and that is certainly an important part in preserving the jewish identity of Israel.
Therefore it would also apply if Israel were to dismantle West Bank settlements and relocate their residents elsewhere. It would also apply if a new Palestinian state covered territory that presently includes Jewish residents in the West Bank and the Palestinian government required them to leave.

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Can't let to many muslims be citizens or they might have some real political power and that would be totally against everything Israel stands for, which of course in no way is about representative democracy.
The right to self-determination is universally recognized around the world to everyone except Jewish people, who are for some unknown reason, expected to include enough non-Jewish people that it’s no longer self-determination.

Israel does a pretty good job of being a nations to all it’s citizens, it’s non-Jewish citizens receiving the same protection to their rights, culture and traditions that it’s Jewish citizens do. It’s the Palestinian government that declares that when they achieve statehood that their nation won’t allow any Jews.

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And Palestinians in annexed lands who chose not to will get Israeli citizenship?
If we look at the past to predict the future, Palestinian-Arab residents of Jerusalem have been offered Israeli citizenship when Israel annexed the city.

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Yep like the trail of tears was to give them their own new nation. Totally not about ethnically cleansing the regions they already lived.
You seem hostile to a two-state solution. Why?

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Yep the two anti islam candidates as the only major ones clearly show a nicely diverse totally not theocratic state. Being a jewish state is the point, as such by definition it is theocratic, or are we just going with ethnostate so we can properly subjugate the wrong kind of jews as well?
One of the draw-backs of democracy is sometimes the electorate elects ********. For example, the United States has been putting up with Trump for more than two years now.

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And of course multi generational occupations of subject nations. Totally a thing for liberal democracies.
The leadership of that “subject nation” has played a significant role in prolonging the conflict. If Arafat had just followed the plan he agreed to (and shared a Nobel Peace Prize for) a Palestinian nation would have been founded back in 1995. Think about that. If that had happened every Palestinian under the age of 24 would only know about the conflict through history books.

This conflict involves two peoples. I agree that it’s frustrating that it’s gone on for such a long time, but it’s not correct to fault only Israel for that. For peace to happen, the Palestinian leadership needs to do their part too.

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
They always had so much in common with apartheid south africa and knew it, why else did they do so much to break international weapons sanctions on them? So they are taking a page from the same play book and setting up pretend states for their subject peoples. They just get better press around it.
This reference to South Africa
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Old 28th April 2019, 08:44 AM   #1517
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That last line should have read, "This reference to South Africa seems contrived. I think you only brought it up because it’s emotionally charged and not because it’s relevant. "
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Old 29th April 2019, 02:06 AM   #1518
Henri McPhee
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
The leadership of that ďsubject nationĒ has played a significant role in prolonging the conflict. If Arafat had just followed the plan he agreed to (and shared a Nobel Peace Prize for) a Palestinian nation would have been founded back in 1995. Think about that. If that had happened every Palestinian under the age of 24 would only know about the conflict through history books.

This conflict involves two peoples. I agree that itís frustrating that itís gone on for such a long time, but itís not correct to fault only Israel for that. For peace to happen, the Palestinian leadership needs to do their part too.
Well what about Israeli expansion then ?
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Old 29th April 2019, 03:17 AM   #1519
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
PonderingTurtle, you're all over the place.

Palestinians, in a best-case scenario, will be forming a miniState on just 6205 sq.km of land area.
There is not an inch more than that to be considered.
Do you think such a little speck can survive without the Israeli Egyptian Jordanian triumvirate being closely linked to this NewState? Hardly.
Get with the program, or find another cause to champion.
Let me repeat --- 6205 sq.km. is the MAX.
And given that there is no support for it in Israel it is a hopeless pipe dream. It isn't like either of the two major presidential candidates would support something even close to this. You need a solution that Netanyahu will buy off on. That is clear from election results. And that plan simply isn't it.
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Old 29th April 2019, 03:22 AM   #1520
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Therefore it would also apply if Israel were to dismantle West Bank settlements and relocate their residents elsewhere.
Yep kicking out illegal squatters is totally genocide. Funny how taking someone land from them and denying them votes is totally now self determination. Up next it will be all about elbowroom.
Quote:
The right to self-determination is universally recognized around the world to everyone except Jewish people, who are for some unknown reason, expected to include enough non-Jewish people that itís no longer self-determination.
???? How does this make any sense? I guess self determination includes invasion and taking land. Really any response to an invasion is a total rejection of the idea of self determination on the invaders by including the invaded in the voting.

These views must make the whole situation in Ukraine interesting. Clearly ethnic Ukrainians voting in self determination undermines the rights of ethnic russians.
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