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Old 16th March 2019, 12:10 PM   #201
dann
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
The idea of people getting in due to "legacy", or due to donations, was always infuriating. That they'd break the law to bribe people...I have no sympathy at all.

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Old 16th March 2019, 12:33 PM   #202
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And in a couple of years these parents will have to pay somebody to write their children's dissertations ...

My dissertation was mostly fake data
Don’t lie about your writing
PhD Thesis And Fake Results On Papers
Scientist who faked data in his thesis will keep his PhD

I have seen complaints from high school students who were outraged when they were cheated by the people they had paid to write their final paper (20 pages) that finishes their three years of Danish high school education! They couldn't get over the fact that they had paid for papers that consisted of cut-and-paste stuff found on the internet.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 16th March 2019, 05:04 PM   #203
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Two thirds of their students receive financial aid. Governments distort markets.

ETA: you get rid of government subsidy of education and government regulation, and government administration of schools, and this problem is greatly reduced.

The problem would disappear if basic college education was 100% government subsidized. ( With significant performance requirements. )
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Old 17th March 2019, 01:30 AM   #204
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Lori Loughlin’s Daughter Is Reportedly Getting the Hell Away From USC

Quote:
According to People, sources connected to the freshman say she has “no plans to return to USC” following the shocking college admissions bribery scandal that has indicted both of her parents. “She can’t handle anything right now,” the source adds. “She seems more and more upset every day. She just wants to stay home.”

This development comes after Jade — whose birth name is Olivia Jade Giannulli — lost a handful of sponsored-content and collaboration deals with various companies, which include Sephora, TRESemmé, and the Estée Lauder Companies. “She feels she has worked very hard to get different work deals and everything is just gone. She thought she knew what the future had in store for her, and it all just crumbled,” People’s source added.
Also Lori Loughlin will not be returning on the next season of Fuller House, and the Hallmark channel has also kicked her to the curb.
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Old 17th March 2019, 05:49 AM   #205
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
The problem would disappear if basic college education was 100% government subsidized. ( With significant performance requirements. )
Sounds like it would go up. If it cannot be distributed by price, slots have to be rationed some other way. Any sort of criteria you put on a slot is eligible for gaming the system and cheating.
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Old 17th March 2019, 09:29 AM   #206
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Agreed, but it would make the gaming more accessible to a more diverse group of applicants.

The performance requirements would kick in after acceptance and would be a little less vulnerable to fraud. No pass, no play..


Technically the GI bill college assist is 100% government subsidized higher education. The wheels turn slow though, and we had to help our son a lot up front before the money started flowing.

However, it is also plagued by fraudulent entities, particularly questionable technical colleges that get the money without delivering any type of usable education the vet can go forward with.
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Old 17th March 2019, 09:55 AM   #207
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
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I'll say it over and over - yes, I was smart, I worked hard.

But there's a difference between me and some other kids I grew up with.

I.

Was.

Lucky.

That's all there is to it. I had a mother and grandfather (my actual father was absent) that did their most, and actual gang members that protected me, but refused to let me join, teachers that had turned against other students, but went to the bat for me.

Even with all that, the full scholarship offer was...out of the blue.
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Old 17th March 2019, 11:08 AM   #208
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Lori Loughlin’s Daughter Is Reportedly Getting the Hell Away From USC



Also Lori Loughlin will not be returning on the next season of Fuller House, and the Hallmark channel has also kicked her to the curb.
And now I feel bad for a social media influencer.

It's not a trivial effort, to be successful at that. Just like any other job, really. She produced the content, she raised the audience, she earned the endorsements. She built a successful career for herself. Then it turns out her parents bribed her into a life she wasn't even interested in, and ruined her career in the process.
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Old 17th March 2019, 01:14 PM   #209
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
The problem would disappear if basic college education was 100% government subsidized. ( With significant performance requirements. )
No it wouldn’t. There would still be a division between less and more prestigious schools. And it’s not like this scandal involved people who had a hard time paying for education. Free college contingent on academic performance would just introduce a strong incentive to cheat on that performance.
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Old 17th March 2019, 01:25 PM   #210
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
And now I feel bad for a social media influencer.

It's not a trivial effort, to be successful at that. Just like any other job, really. She produced the content, she raised the audience, she earned the endorsements. She built a successful career for herself. Then it turns out her parents bribed her into a life she wasn't even interested in, and ruined her career in the process.
She put real effort in a trivial career.
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Old 17th March 2019, 01:29 PM   #211
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
She put real effort in a trivial career.
I disagree. If it keeps the wolf from your door, it's not trivial.

Who are you, to judge what another person finds meaningful, to meet their needs and satisfy their desires?

Clearly Sephora and Tresemme found her work meaningful. As did a million plus souls around the world.

Last edited by theprestige; 17th March 2019 at 01:31 PM.
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Old 17th March 2019, 01:36 PM   #212
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I disagree. If it keeps the wolf from your door, it's not trivial.

Who are you, to judge what another person finds meaningful, to meet their needs and satisfy their desires?

Clearly Sephora and Tresemme found her work meaningful. As did a million plus souls around the world.
And they are all wrong. But it's fine. I hope they enjoy their meaning and joy.
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Old 17th March 2019, 02:22 PM   #213
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
No it wouldn’t. There would still be a division between less and more prestigious schools. And it’s not like this scandal involved people who had a hard time paying for education. Free college contingent on academic performance would just introduce a strong incentive to cheat on that performance.
As if that would be less policeable than the current system..

I think the desirable goal would be a better educated populace..
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Old 17th March 2019, 03:09 PM   #214
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post


I'll say it over and over - yes, I was smart, I worked hard.

But there's a difference between me and some other kids I grew up with.

I.

Was.

Lucky.

Yes, me too, even though my circumstances were very different from yours: No real gangs, for instance. Still, I'm always surprised by the number of people who insist that they are entirely 'self-made' in every way. I get the impression that the less truth there is to this idea, the more they insist that they are what they are entirely because of their own magnificence.
It reminds me of Trump's lies about the small loan from his father, for instance.
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Old 17th March 2019, 05:08 PM   #215
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Careful with the Trump references..

( AAH.. Here we come..)
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Old 17th March 2019, 06:27 PM   #216
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Yes, me too, even though my circumstances were very different from yours: No real gangs, for instance. Still, I'm always surprised by the number of people who insist that they are entirely 'self-made' in every way. I get the impression that the less truth there is to this idea, the more they insist that they are what they are entirely because of their own magnificence.
It reminds me of Trump's lies about the small loan from his father, for instance.
I remember "bootstrapping" being the theme of the 2012 Republican Convention. Couldn't help but notice speaker after speaker telling their "I did it all by myself" story hastened past the parts where they accessed some kind of social assistance or extraordinary generosity bestowed upon them along the way.
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Old 17th March 2019, 06:44 PM   #217
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
I remember "bootstrapping" being the theme of the 2012 Republican Convention. Couldn't help but notice speaker after speaker telling their "I did it all by myself" story hastened past the parts where they accessed some kind of social assistance or extraordinary generosity bestowed upon them along the way.

Modern day version of the Victorian orphan benefactor plot?
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Old 17th March 2019, 07:18 PM   #218
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
I think the desirable goal would be a better educated populace..
Sure. But not flushing money down the drain is also a desirable goal, and there are a lot of people for whom a college education is a waste of money. Absent a financial stake in their own education, even capable students are more likely to pick less productive majors, which can also lead to waste.
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Old 17th March 2019, 08:47 PM   #219
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
And now I feel bad for a social media influencer.

It's not a trivial effort, to be successful at that. Just like any other job, really. She produced the content, she raised the audience, she earned the endorsements. She built a successful career for herself. Then it turns out her parents bribed her into a life she wasn't even interested in, and ruined her career in the process.
Yeah, but don't feel too sorry for her. I'd still trade places with her.

She's just 19. She can get back up on that horse again I'm sure. People can be very forgiving, if she's just a victim of circumstance, or even if she just made a foolish mistake at the behest of her parents' bad advice. But not if she quits and just wallows in self-pity.
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Old 18th March 2019, 04:46 AM   #220
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Lori Loughlin’s Daughter Is Reportedly Getting the Hell Away From USC



Also Lori Loughlin will not be returning on the next season of Fuller House, and the Hallmark channel has also kicked her to the curb.
This seems like a sideshow, just some pure schadenfreude for the masses, but the joy of watching these rich and powerful people get absolutely wrecked as a consequence of their criminal decisions should translate into some real political movement for the next election.

I could seriously see "massive increase in white collar crime enforcement" as as a small piece of domestic policy that I could really get behind. It has a very unifying, appeal that is largely unassailable. It's also a oblique way of attacking people like Trump, who rely on lax enforcement of the law to run their businesses.
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Old 18th March 2019, 06:35 AM   #221
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Believe me, when I was applying, it was *not* granted freely.

I'm lucky, in that I kill on multiple-choice exams, and I wasn't around when the SATs had a written section. I got slaughtered on the APs, though, because we couldn't get any sort of time exemption, where timed, written responses were required.

I'm not at all angry at the kids, they're just doing what they are/were taught to do, but as to the parents...look, I'm generally against putting people in prison unless they do something that could or does harm another. But if you spend $1million just to bribe your kid into an "elite" school, I don't have any sympathy for you. Kids, starting literally at 1st grade, bust their asses just trying for a spot there. I did, some of my friends did. The idea of people getting in due to "legacy", or due to donations, was always infuriating. That they'd break the law to bribe people...I have no sympathy at all.
For diagnosed learning disabilities untimed tests are a requirement that they have to do if you have it at least in NY when the SAT's still had written parts. You have to have parents who navigate the system well enough to get it for you but they certainly are available. I always tested quickly so I never tried to get the AP's untimed and only took the PSAT's untimed once, but it is out there.
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Old 18th March 2019, 06:39 AM   #222
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Fire departments service the fire fighting needs of those within their district, and are paid by the taxpayers of that district.

Schools service the educational needs of those within their district, and are paid by the taxpayers of that district.
So if the kids are living in a car with their parents the school they go to should depend on the location the car was parked the night before.

And when firefighters actually followed that and did not cover people outside their district who's house was burning down(they showed up in case there were lives on the line they wouldn't like you suggest let people die simply because they were outside their district) people seem to be pretty upset. So why is schooling so different?
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Old 18th March 2019, 06:58 AM   #223
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
So if the kids are living in a car with their parents the school they go to should depend on the location the car was parked the night before.
This has already been patiently explained to you, with links provided.

Quote:
And when firefighters actually followed that and did not cover people outside their district who's house was burning down(they showed up in case there were lives on the line they wouldn't like you suggest let people die simply because they were outside their district) people seem to be pretty upset.
This is a lie. I have said the opposite, that fire departments are sometimes called in to fight out of district. You cited an oddball exception earlier, not the rule. When I served on volunteer rescue, we crossed municipal lines without thought as first responders. Why do you insist on dishonest discussion?

Quote:
So why is schooling so different?
Because it would cause insane complication for the child's education and record keeping to show up in a different school district every day. a homeless student gets enrolled in the district they reside in. In my State, the gov't steps in to assist in finding a permanent residence for the family. It is really, really not that complicated.
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Old 18th March 2019, 07:07 AM   #224
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
And now I feel bad for a social media influencer.

It's not a trivial effort, to be successful at that. Just like any other job, really. She produced the content, she raised the audience, she earned the endorsements. She built a successful career for herself. Then it turns out her parents bribed her into a life she wasn't even interested in, and ruined her career in the process.
When my adult kids enrolled in college, they had to fill out the paperwork themselves. Mom and dad were only involved for making payment arrangements. I would think it was the same for our intrepid OP students. This was not done 'to' them; they were knowing participants, and reaped as they sowed.

Their YT gigs were pretty trivial, IMO, even though they coughed up coin. A quirk of the internet age is generating income from screwing around. But they can disappear overnight, such is the fickleness of being a casual subscriber/follower thingy. They provided very very light entertainment, based on very superficial substance, and evidently lost it just as casually.
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Old 18th March 2019, 07:12 AM   #225
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
When my adult kids enrolled in college, they had to fill out the paperwork themselves. Mom and dad were only involved for making payment arrangements. I would think it was the same for our intrepid OP students. This was not done 'to' them; they were knowing participants, and reaped as they sowed.

Their YT gigs were pretty trivial, IMO, even though they coughed up coin. A quirk of the internet age is generating income from screwing around. But they can disappear overnight, such is the fickleness of being a casual subscriber/follower thingy. They provided very very light entertainment, based on very superficial substance, and evidently lost it just as casually.
At some point, these students should be expected to be active participants in their own affairs. I agree with Thermal here. A college student should be completing their own applications and actively managing the entire process. Claiming "I didn't know" is both implausible, and even it were true, damning in itself. Allowing Mom and Dad to complete your applications for college is itself an indication of a pretty serious character flaw.


Unexplained high test scores or unexpected admittance to a sports teams ought to be something an applicant would notice and question.
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Old 18th March 2019, 07:32 AM   #226
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
This is a lie. I have said the opposite, that fire departments are sometimes called in to fight out of district. You cited an oddball exception earlier, not the rule. When I served on volunteer rescue, we crossed municipal lines without thought as first responders. Why do you insist on dishonest discussion?
Why are you letting them steal your presence? They are taking what is rightfully your communities after all. Or accept it is a really bad analogy or that focusing on location instead of need for students to enable segregation is the goal. It certainly has been found to be the goal of school districts breaking appart and that was a totally legal goal. Segregation as long as it follows some primary non racial characteristic is fine.


Quote:
Because it would cause insane complication for the child's education and record keeping to show up in a different school district every day. a homeless student gets enrolled in the district they reside in. In my State, the gov't steps in to assist in finding a permanent residence for the family. It is really, really not that complicated.
So you steal from the poorest district to preserve the status quo. Which is of course what public education is all about.
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Old 18th March 2019, 07:35 AM   #227
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
At some point, these students should be expected to be active participants in their own affairs. I agree with Thermal here. A college student should be completing their own applications and actively managing the entire process. Claiming "I didn't know" is both implausible, and even it were true, damning in itself. Allowing Mom and Dad to complete your applications for college is itself an indication of a pretty serious character flaw.


Unexplained high test scores or unexpected admittance to a sports teams ought to be something an applicant would notice and question.
Depends on the nature of the bribery. If they merely bribed the admissions officer it could be that the student didn't know. Claiming status's and activities they knew they didn't deserve the students were clearly complicit.

Many or most of the students seem to have likely known but it is possible some might not have known.
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Old 18th March 2019, 09:38 AM   #228
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Many or most of the students seem to have likely known but it is possible some might not have known.
I’ve been puzzling over the statement Jack Buckingham gave to the Hollywood Reporter in which he claims to be upset over his “unknowingly being involved” in the scam. The charge is that his mother paid a proctor $50,000 to take the ACT for him.

Assuming this story is accurate, including his being enrolled in college somewhere, is there a scenario where it is possible that he was unaware of his mother’s actions?
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Old 18th March 2019, 10:03 AM   #229
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Originally Posted by Myles View Post
I’ve been puzzling over the statement Jack Buckingham gave to the Hollywood Reporter in which he claims to be upset over his “unknowingly being involved” in the scam. The charge is that his mother paid a proctor $50,000 to take the ACT for him.

Assuming this story is accurate, including his being enrolled in college somewhere, is there a scenario where it is possible that he was unaware of his mother’s actions?
Is he dumb enough to think he got in without taking the SAT?

Can the SAT be taken more than once? Several hundred million years ago I took the ACT several times, which was acceptable to do. Colleges in my area that I wanted to go to used the ACT instead of the SAT, so I am not fully versed in the SAT.

Maybe Buckingham took it once, and the paid test taker guy took it again posing as Buckingham, without Buckingham knowing, making him think that the test he took was the one that got him in?
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Old 18th March 2019, 10:08 AM   #230
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Originally Posted by Myles View Post
I’ve been puzzling over the statement Jack Buckingham gave to the Hollywood Reporter in which he claims to be upset over his “unknowingly being involved” in the scam. The charge is that his mother paid a proctor $50,000 to take the ACT for him.

Assuming this story is accurate, including his being enrolled in college somewhere, is there a scenario where it is possible that he was unaware of his mother’s actions?
Seems unlikely. You would have to assume he'd never check his ACT scores online and notice a score for a test he never took. I'm not sure if only your best score is sent along by default, or if you have to designate a score to have sent along with your application.

I would assume that a student that is preparing an application would be checking and double checking all the elements and would notice something so obviously awry.
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Old 18th March 2019, 10:22 AM   #231
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If you weren't that interested, and weren't paying attention, you could miss a lot of the details about college admissions requirements that float past your head during high school. Especially if your parents are saying "don't worry about it, we've taken care of all the paperwork, you just enjoy your summer vacation".
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Old 18th March 2019, 10:26 AM   #232
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
If you weren't that interested, and weren't paying attention, you could miss a lot of the details about college admissions requirements that float past your head during high school. Especially if your parents are saying "don't worry about it, we've taken care of all the paperwork, you just enjoy your summer vacation".
That's not much better than cheating. "I didn't know my mommy committed fraud on my behalf because I allowed her to fill out all my applications" is a poor defense.
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Old 18th March 2019, 10:45 AM   #233
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
That's not much better than cheating. "I didn't know my mommy committed fraud on my behalf because I allowed her to fill out all my applications" is a poor defense.
There's a difference between being stupid and naive (which is kind of normal for a teenager - especially a teenager whose parents have been ensuring they play through life on Easy Mode) and being knowingly complicit in a criminal scheme.

"Not much better than cheating," is one way to put it. Another way to put it is "literally not cheating, which is in fact much better than cheating".
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Old 18th March 2019, 10:46 AM   #234
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
Is he dumb enough to think he got in without taking the SAT?

Can the SAT be taken more than once?
Yes and they only look at the best score. So it is possible.
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Old 18th March 2019, 10:47 AM   #235
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Seems unlikely. You would have to assume he'd never check his ACT scores online and notice a score for a test he never took. I'm not sure if only your best score is sent along by default, or if you have to designate a score to have sent along with your application.

I would assume that a student that is preparing an application would be checking and double checking all the elements and would notice something so obviously awry.
Maybe I applied to college before online sat results.
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Old 9th April 2019, 11:52 AM   #236
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Lori Loughlin and 15 other parents hit with more charges in the college admissions scam (CNN, April 9, 2019)
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Old 10th April 2019, 04:33 AM   #237
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
And now I feel bad for a social media influencer.

It's not a trivial effort, to be successful at that. Just like any other job, really. She produced the content, she raised the audience, she earned the endorsements. She built a successful career for herself. Then it turns out her parents bribed her into a life she wasn't even interested in, and ruined her career in the process.
No doubt that was some work and shrewd decision making that was necessary for her success, but calling her self made is a bit of a stretch. She started from a position of high wealth and proximity to notoriety that made her uniquely positioned to succeed. Life dealt her an exceedingly strong hand that she managed to play well, but I very much doubt she could have been successful without these extraordinary unearned advantages.

With these lifestyle influencers peddling beauty products, being young and beautiful is only part of the battle. It's no coincidence that so many of these influencers are people in in close proximity to high society. People have always been fascinated with the social lives of the rich and famous, and today's influencer is a close kin to the socialite of years gone by. Step 1 of being a socialite or influencer is being a "somebody", and the easiest way to be a somebody is to be the descendant of one.

So I'm not going to beat my hands bloody clapping for the daughter of a famous actress managing to become famous for being famous.
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Old 15th April 2019, 11:36 AM   #238
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Originally Posted by pharphis View Post
20k a month to cover up if someone gets suspicious?

Damn, why not just pay a personal trainer/tutor (or small team of such) and force your kid to listen to them and study effectively.
The point of going to elite institutions is not to get an education, it's to get a degree.
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Old 15th April 2019, 11:41 AM   #239
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Well, to get a membership card, anyway.
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Old 15th April 2019, 06:06 PM   #240
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Originally Posted by Regnad Kcin View Post
All of a sudden, Bernie's free college for all is looking like a better idea.


I’m not sure how this story does that. It seems the problem for rich spoiled brats isn’t money to pay but whether or not they get accepted. I don’t think Bernie is proposing everyone gets in to any school they want and gets it for free.
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