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Old 5th November 2018, 01:50 PM   #1761
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
Scotland Yard is investigating a tasteless joke some people didn't find amusing?
Like most police departments, they probably have to respond to a complaint until they determine it's groundless.

And that video really is pretty disgusting. The revelers can be heard laughing and yelling "help me, help me!" Hard to understand why they think this is funny.
https://twitter.com/alexberesfordTV/...ing-footage%2F
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Old 5th November 2018, 04:04 PM   #1762
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Like most police departments, they probably have to respond to a complaint until they determine it's groundless.

And that video really is pretty disgusting. The revelers can be heard laughing and yelling "help me, help me!" Hard to understand why they think this is funny.
https://twitter.com/alexberesfordTV/...ing-footage%2F
Because it was brown people.
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Old 5th November 2018, 09:32 PM   #1763
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Five men have now been arrested for burning the cardboard model. It will be interesting to see if any of them are charged, and if so, for what offences.
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Old 5th November 2018, 10:05 PM   #1764
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Five men have now been arrested for burning the cardboard model. It will be interesting to see if any of them are charged, and if so, for what offences.

Usually getting charged is part of the process of getting arrested. In this case, reports say "suspicion of a public order offence." Sounds something like disturbing the peace.
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crim...-a3981461.html
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a8619491.html

I wonder if hate crimes laws might apply.
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Old 6th November 2018, 02:42 AM   #1765
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Again remember that "arrested on suspicion" is not "arrested". At that point it has often not been established that a crime has been committed. This may end up with something vague like "conduct liable to cause a breach of the peace/public outrage" or once the fuss has died down "unable to establish an offence was committed".
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Old 6th November 2018, 02:54 AM   #1766
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Originally Posted by Wudang View Post
Again remember that "arrested on suspicion" is not "arrested". At that point it has often not been established that a crime has been committed. This may end up with something vague like "conduct liable to cause a breach of the peace/public outrage" or once the fuss has died down "unable to establish an offence was committed".
Yes it does mean arrested.
They will have been cautioned and taken to the custody suite and booked in, photographed, finger printed and had DNA taken before being interviewed.
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Old 6th November 2018, 03:06 AM   #1767
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Yes it does mean arrested.
They will have been cautioned and taken to the custody suite and booked in, photographed, finger printed and had DNA taken before being interviewed.
Sorry, badly phrased. I should have said something more like "does not mean arrested and charged". US and other members often take the word "arrested" as something a step or 2 further in the legal process. Witness the thread about the guy who killed an intruder in his home when attacked and was "arrested on suspicion" as part of the process of securing evidence.
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Old 6th November 2018, 04:46 AM   #1768
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Quote:
The men have been arrested under section 4a of the Public Order Act 1986, which covers intentional "harassment, alarm or distress" caused via the use of "threatening, abusive or insulting" words or signs.

Offences committed on a private residence where a person "had no reason to believe" it would be "heard or seen by a person outside that or any other dwelling" are protected from prosecution under the act.
Via https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-46106224

I would wonder if "had no reason to believe" applies once it is posted to social media. IANAL.
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Old 6th November 2018, 05:35 AM   #1769
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
In looking for the video, I found this history of high-rise fires in the UK. There was plenty of warning that Grenfell could happen, and that a "shelter in place" policy could be catastrophic.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-45982810
Yes, upthread I linked to a blog by a resident of Grenfell about fire safety and asking whether it would take a tragedy for the management of Grenfell to take notice

Heartrending stuff
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Old 6th November 2018, 07:33 AM   #1770
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
I struggle to see what criminal offence may have been committed, however offensive to common decency the video is (if it actually exists, the article says it has not been verified yet). People seem determined to be offended, and must post about these things on social media, thereby propagating them rather than just ignoring them as they deserve. (Not aimed at you, IA.)

I agree. To add context, as IA says there are a lot of garden and organised bonfires at this time of year, in the UK we have Guy Fawkes night (celebrating the failure of the attempted religious terrorism, not the attempt itself. That point seems to be much misunderstood these days thanks in part to Alan Moore) when it was always traditional to burn Fawkes in effigy, or the Pope (any pope will do) it's expanded, particularly recently to include virtually any public figure, and the more insulting the better. Normally though the targets are the rich and powerful and this is the most disgusting attempt at 'humour' I can imagine. But being a douce with the sense of humour of a psychotic five year old shouldn't be a crime although being cast out of civilised society seems quite reasonable.
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Old 6th November 2018, 10:35 AM   #1771
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
I agree. To add context, as IA says there are a lot of garden and organised bonfires at this time of year,
.....
In cities? In what kinds of spaces? It might be a custom, but are they legal? This doesn't sound like a backyard barbecue. Is this a case of something that the authorities have generally winked at, but could have been prosecuting all along?
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Old 6th November 2018, 11:40 AM   #1772
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
In cities? In what kinds of spaces? It might be a custom, but are they legal? This doesn't sound like a backyard barbecue. Is this a case of something that the authorities have generally winked at, but could have been prosecuting all along?
UK Government: Garden bonfires - the rules

"There are no laws against having a bonfire, but there are laws for the nuisance they can cause.

Burning domestic waste

You cannot get rid of household waste if it will cause pollution or harm people’s health. This includes burning it.

You can get rid of household or garden waste by composting or recycling it. Contact your local council to find out how to dispose of garden waste and about recycling in your area.

You could be fined if you light a fire and allow the smoke to drift across the road and become a danger to traffic.

Complain about a neighbour’s bonfire

Your council can issue an ‘abatement notice’ if a neighbour’s bonfire is causing a nuisance. A bonfire must happen frequently to be considered a nuisance.

Your neighbour can be fined up to £5,000 if they don’t follow the rules of the notice."
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Old 6th November 2018, 12:40 PM   #1773
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
UK Government: Garden bonfires - the rules

"There are no laws against having a bonfire, but there are laws for the nuisance they can cause.

Burning domestic waste

You cannot get rid of household waste if it will cause pollution or harm people’s health. This includes burning it.
.....
I assume this can only take place on private property that you own or have lawful access to. You can't build a bonfire on somebody else's lawn, in a public park, a parking lot, in the middle of a street, etc., right?

It sounds like you can only burn clean firewood. That painted cardboard box Grenfell model might be considered household waste, right?
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Old 6th November 2018, 01:30 PM   #1774
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
I assume this can only take place on private property that you own or have lawful access to. You can't build a bonfire on somebody else's lawn, in a public park, a parking lot, in the middle of a street, etc., right?
Well, that's a given. Municipal authorities tend to organise large bonfires on their own property, which can include public parks. I was up north at the weekend, and attended a council-run bonfire and firework display on Saturday night. The bonfire itself was inside the park here, and was mostly composed of stacked fork lift truck pallets. There was a small funfair on the west side.

Quote:
It sounds like you can only burn clean firewood. That painted cardboard box Grenfell model might be considered household waste, right?
Not really. Bear in mind that it only prohibits household waste "if it will cause pollution or harm people’s health." That really means plastics and food waste. Certainly for a Bonfire Night bonfire, any wood available is used, and paper and cardboard to get it going. Unless a bonfire is belching thick toxic smoke, nobody is going to complain, or have anything to complain about.

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Old 6th November 2018, 02:59 PM   #1775
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Well, that's a given. Municipal authorities tend to organise large bonfires on their own property, which can include public parks. I was up north at the weekend, and attended a council-run bonfire and firework display on Saturday night. The bonfire itself was inside the park here, and was mostly composed of stacked fork lift truck pallets. There was a small funfair on the west side.
.....
This does seem to be an odd custom. If we have public bonfires anywhere in the U.S., they are certainly uncommon.
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Old 6th November 2018, 03:25 PM   #1776
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We have a local bonfire event at Skinningrove.
Some kind of big wooden effigy is built on the beach and burned every year.

They have their own website

https://skinningrovebonfire.org.uk/

Lewes has the best known celebrations with various 'Societies' competing with each other to stage the biggest and best parades through the town which culminate in a huge fire

https://www.lewesbonfirecelebrations.com/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewes_Bonfire
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Old 6th November 2018, 03:35 PM   #1777
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So not only popes but also politicians are burnt.
https://edition.cnn.com/videos/world...-mobile-tc.cnn

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Old 6th November 2018, 07:36 PM   #1778
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
This does seem to be an odd custom. If we have public bonfires anywhere in the U.S., they are certainly uncommon.


Aside from major high school and college sporting events, you mean.
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Old 6th November 2018, 09:49 PM   #1779
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Aside from major high school and college sporting events, you mean.
You mean like this one?
Quote:
In 1999, the Bonfire collapsed during construction, killing twelve people, eleven students and one former student, and injuring twenty-seven others. The accident led Texas A&M to declare a hiatus on an official Bonfire.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aggie_Bonfire

I must live in a backward part of the country. I just don't recall these things anywhere I've been.
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Old 7th November 2018, 04:53 AM   #1780
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Well, that's a given. Municipal authorities tend to organise large bonfires on their own property, which can include public parks.
When I was a kid in the early 60s, virtually every street held their own bonfire on any open space - usually the bombsite - a space where a building was destroyed during WW2 and had not been rebuilt. Obviously, there are few, if any, 'bommies' left but I'm aware of at least 3 bonfires held on 'waste' ground locally. It's still fairly common for such events which are presumably tolerated by the authorities as long as they aren't causing a danger to nearby property.
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Old 7th November 2018, 06:00 AM   #1781
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Originally Posted by Shankly View Post
When I was a kid in the early 60s, virtually every street held their own bonfire on any open space - usually the bombsite - a space where a building was destroyed during WW2 and had not been rebuilt. Obviously, there are few, if any, 'bommies' left but I'm aware of at least 3 bonfires held on 'waste' ground locally. It's still fairly common for such events which are presumably tolerated by the authorities as long as they aren't causing a danger to nearby property.
Yes, it may actually be the case that a decline in street or local bonfires led to a rise in garden bonfires, but more lately the latter have declined as people go to larger organised events. Throughout the 1970s and early-1980s our local bonfire was on the site of a demolished stable block next to a rugby club - which organised it - adjacent to our estate.
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Old 7th November 2018, 06:54 AM   #1782
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My house was built 22 years ago. One of my neighbours still complains that "that was where we used to have our bonfires".
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Old 7th November 2018, 07:12 AM   #1783
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post

Yeah, that's a pretty good example. Just because that one had a bad ending doesn't mean they all do.

Quote:

I must live in a backward part of the country. I just don't recall these things anywhere I've been.

When UNC CH wins a major sporting event (like the NCAA) they tend to close down a block or two of Franklin St. (the main block of downtown) for student exuberance. Even though they have been discouraged, there is still a problem with students building fires on the street. There's generally a minor injury or two. At least they managed to get them to stop rolling over parked cars, but some of that may be a result of banning parking on that block during such events. As well as the locals prudently parking elsewhere.

WVU had such a problem with the Greek houses burning stuff (sofas were popular) after big wins that the city had to pass laws against it.

Not the fires, mind you, just burning up their furniture.

And then there's the tailgate culture at Virginia Tech.

Etc., etc.. Examples abound.
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Old 15th April 2019, 12:42 PM   #1784
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The catastrophe in Paris reminds me that we haven't heard anything recently about Grenfell. Have there been any new investigative conclusions? Has everybody found new homes? Are they going to salvage the building or demolish it? Anybody going to jail? Etc.
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Old 15th April 2019, 01:03 PM   #1785
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
The catastrophe in Paris reminds me that we haven't heard anything recently about Grenfell.

Grenfell Tower bonfire: Man charged over effigy burning video
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Old 16th April 2019, 12:41 AM   #1786
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
The catastrophe in Paris reminds me that we haven't heard anything recently about Grenfell. Have there been any new investigative conclusions? Has everybody found new homes? Are they going to salvage the building or demolish it? Anybody going to jail? Etc.
The official inquiry is ongoing. Every now and again BBC London news runs a story about survivors/relatives/neighbours being worried that "people might forget" that it happened.
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Old 9th June 2019, 03:52 PM   #1787
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A week before the second anniversary of Grenfell, another somewhat alarming* fire in London has occurred. No major injuries reported, and the fire was extinguished relatively quickly, thankfully. Questions being asked about the wooden balconies, whether there were firebreaks, and the effectiveness of whatever fire retardents were used.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-48574044

* - Pictures look pretty dramatic, IMO.
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Old 9th June 2019, 04:15 PM   #1788
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No smoke alarms? Atrocious.

Maybe it will turn out some of the contents were saved. Those balconies look like kindling.
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Old 9th June 2019, 04:44 PM   #1789
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
No smoke alarms? Atrocious.

Maybe it will turn out some of the contents were saved. Those balconies look like kindling.
Yes, it is called the human nose. Smoke detectors are only any good if no humans are around. Or if they are asleep.
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Old 9th June 2019, 05:41 PM   #1790
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
Yes, it is called the human nose. Smoke detectors are only any good if no humans are around. Or if they are asleep.
What are you talking about?
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Old 9th June 2019, 06:38 PM   #1791
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
You mean like this one?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aggie_Bonfire

I must live in a backward part of the country. I just don't recall these things anywhere I've been.
The Aggie thing was a big deal for a good while, then someones got stupid as to assembling the wood/burn material and people died. Pretty sure it made national as well as many local news channels.
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Old 9th June 2019, 07:24 PM   #1792
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Gee, wooden balconies. Pretty much like most every apartment complex in the USA.

Yes, they burn a lot. When I lived on the fourth floor, I kept a knotted rope on the balcony, with one end tied to the railing.
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Old 9th June 2019, 08:13 PM   #1793
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
What are you talking about?
If there are any humans around they will smell the fire. They should then raise the alarm. All of this long before any smoke detectors have gone off.

Smoke detectors are only good for areas where there are no alert humans.
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Old 9th June 2019, 08:22 PM   #1794
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
If there are any humans around they will smell the fire. They should then raise the alarm. All of this long before any smoke detectors have gone off.

Smoke detectors are only good for areas where there are no alert humans.
What's your point? Some people have a deficient sense of smell. Sometimes cooking odors might mask smoke. Sometimes fire might start in an attic or a basement with people in another room. Smoke detectors are designed to sense the first particles of combustion before smoke is obvious to people. That's why they are sometimes prone to false alarms. Why say something so silly?

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Old 9th June 2019, 08:26 PM   #1795
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Gee, wooden balconies. Pretty much like most every apartment complex in the USA.
......
I don't know if that's true. I've seen plenty with concrete floors and steel railings.


Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
....
Yes, they burn a lot. When I lived on the fourth floor, I kept a knotted rope on the balcony, with one end tied to the railing.
I don't know how that would help you if the balcony caught fire.
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Old 9th June 2019, 08:32 PM   #1796
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
If there are any humans around they will smell the fire. They should then raise the alarm. All of this long before any smoke detectors have gone off.

Smoke detectors are only good for areas where there are no alert humans.
Guess you need to be in a real fire to know the reality of one.

I've been in one. Have you? Want to compare stories?
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Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 9th June 2019 at 08:34 PM.
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Old 9th June 2019, 08:54 PM   #1797
Trebuchet
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
I
I don't know how that would help you if the balcony caught fire.
Fire on the inside: Go down the rope.
Fire on the outside: Go down the stairs.
Fire everywhere: Kiss your ass goodbye. But you knew that.
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Old 9th June 2019, 09:02 PM   #1798
Bob001
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Guess you need to be in a real fire to know the reality of one.

I've been in one. Have you? Want to compare stories?
By way of illustration:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_eHBqVYa8A
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Old 9th June 2019, 09:17 PM   #1799
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Astoundingly quick. Station Nightclub 2003 (also on YT) shows how a fire situation becomes dire in seconds. Warning very graphic.
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Old 9th June 2019, 10:06 PM   #1800
rjh01
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
What's your point? Some people have a deficient sense of smell. Sometimes cooking odors might mask smoke. Sometimes fire might start in an attic or a basement with people in another room. Smoke detectors are designed to sense the first particles of combustion before smoke is obvious to people. That's why they are sometimes prone to false alarms. Why say something so silly?
Your post is garbage. For example if cooking odors mask smoke then the odors would set off any smoke detectors.

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Guess you need to be in a real fire to know the reality of one.

I've been in one. Have you? Want to compare stories?
No. I am interested in facts, not stories. I hope you have facts.
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