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Tags general discussion , Israel issues , Israel-Palestine conflict , Palestine issues , US-Israel relations

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Old 18th May 2016, 11:18 AM   #161
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Oh, you know when a woman says she's not a feminist because she disagrees with their methods, they claim that she has internalised misogyny. It's a nice way to dismiss them.
I'm not sure it's possible for anyone on this planet not to have internalized misogyny, to some degree or another.
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Old 18th May 2016, 11:25 AM   #162
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Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
I'm not sure it's possible for anyone on this planet not to have internalized misogyny, to some degree or another.
You must be joking.
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Old 18th May 2016, 11:26 AM   #163
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
You must be joking.
No.
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Old 18th May 2016, 11:28 AM   #164
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Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
No.
You think that everyone on Earth hates women to some degree, including women?
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Old 18th May 2016, 11:33 AM   #165
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Intersectional feminists, more specifically.
None of the ones I know would go like: if a woman disagrees with, say, throwing molotov cocktails at an MRA office then she is a self-hating woman.

I'm not buying it.
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Old 18th May 2016, 11:38 AM   #166
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
None of the ones I know would go like: if a woman disagrees with, say, throwing molotov cocktails at an MRA office then she is a self-hating woman.

I'm not buying it.
Then look it up. I've seen it used a lot these last few months. Don't take my word for it. You should have an easy time finding the term used.
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Old 18th May 2016, 12:11 PM   #167
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
I think you're having us on. You don't believe Europe is going to go all Nazi genocidal at all.

Your real target is the existence of laws repressing racist speech and action. You don't like such laws.
Those laws are in place out of fears that if they aren't in place it would be 1936 all over again.
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Old 18th May 2016, 12:41 PM   #168
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Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
I'm not sure it's possible for anyone on this planet not to have internalized misogyny, to some degree or another.
I have a lot of internalized (and not-so-internalized) misanthropy. Does that count?
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Old 18th May 2016, 05:44 PM   #169
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I have a lot of internalized (and not-so-internalized) misanthropy. Does that count?
Possibly. It's complicated.
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Old 18th May 2016, 05:46 PM   #170
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
You think that everyone on Earth hates women to some degree, including women?
Hecks yea.
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Old 19th May 2016, 01:30 AM   #171
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Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
Hecks yea.
Why?
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Old 19th May 2016, 03:37 AM   #172
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Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
Hecks yea.
stop projecting your fears on others
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Old 19th May 2016, 05:30 AM   #173
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I would take it to mean "God is greater [than these kafir I'm killing]".



That works too.
Being that it's also used as a cry of distress (e.g. during accidents), it seems to me to carry a far more self-reflective connotation than your interpretation would imply. It wouldn't make that much sense to a Jihadist who would presumably view the enemy as dirt. If there's one thing worth pointing out that God is greater at, it would be the struggle or stress the Jihadist experiences, and so he uses the cry to inspire courage in himself. It also, I would think he supposes, strikes fear into enemies, because he is saying "even if you kill me, God is greater still", i.e. I will fight to the death, and the cause never dies.

Invoking Allah to make a petty insult by comparison? That strikes me as sacrilegeous at best.
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Old 19th May 2016, 05:48 AM   #174
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
Being that it's also used as a cry of distress (e.g. during accidents), it seems to me to carry a far more self-reflective connotation than your interpretation would imply. It wouldn't make that much sense to a Jihadist who would presumably view the enemy as dirt. If there's one thing worth pointing out that God is greater at, it would be the struggle or stress the Jihadist experiences, and so he uses the cry to inspire courage in himself. It also, I would think he supposes, strikes fear into enemies, because he is saying "even if you kill me, God is greater still", i.e. I will fight to the death, and the cause never dies.

Invoking Allah to make a petty insult by comparison? That strikes me as sacrilegeous at best.
I think that what it may connote to the murderer is far less important than what it may connote to his victims. We're under no obligation to understand what the terrorist feels as he detonates a bomb vest in a crowded restaurant.

If "allah akbar" is his catchphrase at the moment of truth, then we need go no further into its meaning than, "I am a murdering douchebag acting out a murdering douchebag ideology".

Last edited by theprestige; 19th May 2016 at 05:52 AM.
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Old 19th May 2016, 05:56 AM   #175
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I think that what it may connote to the murderer is far less important than what it may connote to his victims. We're under no obligation to understand what the terrorist feels as he detonates a bomb vest in a crowded restaurant.

If "allah akbar" is his catchphrase at the moment of truth, then we need go no further into its meaning than, "I am a murdering douchebag acting out a murdering douchebag ideology".

And when their victims also yell, "Allah akbar," while trying to stem the bleeding?

Context is important, always.
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Old 19th May 2016, 06:04 AM   #176
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
And when their victims also yell, "Allah akbar," while trying to stem the bleeding?

Context is important, always.
Yeah, like many Arabic phrases, it's brief, simple, widely used, but has varied and complex meanings depending on context. To reduce it to "my God is bigger than yours" or something similar is incorrect and diminishing of the language.
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Old 19th May 2016, 06:54 AM   #177
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
Being that it's also used as a cry of distress (e.g. during accidents), it seems to me to carry a far more self-reflective connotation than your interpretation would imply.
I disagree. I think the fact that it's used so ubiquitously, and in so many situations, indicates that it's more reflexive than reflective. Plus, suicide bombers and the like don't mutter it under their breath, they shout it. That's performative, NOT meditative.

Quote:
It wouldn't make that much sense to a Jihadist who would presumably view the enemy as dirt. If there's one thing worth pointing out that God is greater at, it would be the struggle or stress the Jihadist experiences, and so he uses the cry to inspire courage in himself. It also, I would think he supposes, strikes fear into enemies, because he is saying "even if you kill me, God is greater still", i.e. I will fight to the death, and the cause never dies.
That latter usage is perfectly in line with what I said. And as for inspiring courage, well, the idea that the enemy will tremble before you is very useful for that, so that's pretty compatible as well.

Quote:
Invoking Allah to make a petty insult by comparison? That strikes me as sacrilegeous at best.
When you're killing people, insults are never petty.
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Old 19th May 2016, 07:47 AM   #178
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
And when their victims also yell, "Allah akbar," while trying to stem the bleeding?

Context is important, always.
The context was terrorism - - specifically suicide bombing.
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Old 19th May 2016, 08:08 AM   #179
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
Yeah, like many Arabic phrases, it's brief, simple, widely used, but has varied and complex meanings depending on context. To reduce it to "my God is bigger than yours" or something similar is incorrect and diminishing of the language.
Well, perhaps we can bring this full circle ?

Whatever it means, it does NOT mean "God is Great", which is what the media reports it as.
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Old 19th May 2016, 09:51 AM   #180
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Originally Posted by Roofgardener View Post
Well, perhaps we can bring this full circle ?

Whatever it means, it does NOT mean "God is Great", which is what the media reports it as.
Let's just translate it as "Allah über alles".
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Old 19th May 2016, 10:47 AM   #181
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The context was terrorism - - specifically suicide bombing.
Which never includes Muslims in it's victims?
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Old 19th May 2016, 12:55 PM   #182
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Which never includes Muslims in it's victims?
This will probably go much faster and happier if you simply explain whatever conclusion you think we should reach from the proposition that Muslims are sometimes victims of terrorism.
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Old 19th May 2016, 04:29 PM   #183
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
All within the state, nothing outside the state, nothing against the state. Therefor it is impossible to be a Jew outside the state, and hence opposition to the "Idea of the Nation" (Israel in this case) must be opposition to Jews and hence antisemitic.
Trying to parse that, getting nowhere.

Of course it is possible to be a Jew outside "the state". It's possible to be a Jew without being a Zionist. What all this "all within the state" stuff is I can't imagine.

My opposition is to Zionism. Nothing I say is anti-semitic because I am not anti-semitic. I regard the whole matter of race as something best forgotten by the human race. Zionism, in contrast, puts race at the very centre of life, the pole around which everything else revolves. Why would I not oppose it?
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Old 19th May 2016, 04:30 PM   #184
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
I am not going to try to guess how Capel would think in some hypothetical future.
Me neither.
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Old 19th May 2016, 04:32 PM   #185
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Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
Trying to parse that, getting nowhere.

Of course it is possible to be a Jew outside "the state". It's possible to be a Jew without being a Zionist. What all this "all within the state" stuff is I can't imagine.

My opposition is to Zionism. Nothing I say is anti-semitic because I am not anti-semitic. I regard the whole matter of race as something best forgotten by the human race. Zionism, in contrast, puts race at the very centre of life, the pole around which everything else revolves. Why would I not oppose it?
Why is it only a concern of yours in Israel?

And, of course, you play the game popular among people who claim they're totally not anti-Semitic just anti-Zionist and pretend you don't know that Jewish is a ethnicity and a religion and not a race.
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Old 19th May 2016, 05:06 PM   #186
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'm sorry someone made an unsupported claim at you, but why does it matter?
Because it might not be true and people reading such an unequivocal claim might assume that it's a settled fact.

It mattered to Giz or Ziggurat or whovever it was (I find these people to hard to tell apart, frankly) enough to bring it up, and I'd like to explore how much care they take over things they think matter. Especially when those things are comfortable to their ears, which is when it really matters.

So a "comprehensive peace treaty" was offered and rejected, despite a very juicy sweetener : the first question that springs to mind is the reason for rejection. I've no reason to doubt that a comprehensive peace treaty was available to Syria but it had some form. As I've said, Israel didn't offer a generic "comprehensive peace treaty", you write it, we'll sign it. Israel offered a treaty which would have contained its demands - some or all of which must have been unacceptable to the Syrians. Giz (lets say it's him, for convenience) must have looked this up. I'd like to know what he found.

The intent, of course, is to give the impression of Syrian intransigence and eternal hostility to Jews.

Quote:
The Golan was forfeit the moment Syria went to war with Israel.
The Golan was forfeit the moment it was included in the Historic Claim. Israel attacked it in 1948-49 and the Syrians held onto it. Which was about the only thing they did do on that occasion.

Quote:
So what if Israel didn't make any reasonable offer to return it afterwards? Any offer Israel made would have been more than Syria deserved, and if it didn't include the Golan, Syria has no-one to blame but themselves.
The people to blame for all this, every detail and bodybag, are those European racists who, 120 years ago in Europe, set this whole thing in motion. It was they who established the Historic Claim after the Balfour Declaration and so they who brought the Golan Heights into the scheme. With the intention, of course, of doing just what's being done now. Something which you, I imagine, put down to coincidence. One of many in this remarkable story of people defending themselves out of Europe and into Palestine because the Palestinians wouldn't stop hitting themselves.

I'm more of an Occam's Razor chap myself. In that light one sees the plan sputtering on but essentially a failure.
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Old 19th May 2016, 05:29 PM   #187
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
Why is it only a concern of yours in Israel?
It's a concern of mine everywhere.

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And, of course, you play the game popular among people who claim they're totally not anti-Semitic just anti-Zionist and pretend you don't know that Jewish is a ethnicity and a religion and not a race.
You might want to tell that to the Orthodox rabbinate. It's too late to tell it to the early Zionists, because they certainly thought it was a race. They certainly didn't think it was a religion - "We shall know how to keep them in their synagogues" in Herzl's rather chilling words - and as for ethnicity they referred to it as "caftans and ringlets" and were very much against it. Zionism, remember, is about modernity. The Western Way. Look at the Israeli cabinet. Do they look ethnic to you?

Mixed marriage and associated "mongrelisation" is what they railed against. It's what they meant by assimilation: culturally, they were completely assimilated to the Western Way. Today the Orthodox rabbinate in Israel rails against the same thing while, of course, not being assimilated to the Western Way by a long chalk. Their language regarding Reform Judaism on this point is becoming quite inflammatory. Of course, they don't have many volume settings.

Zionism is about race, fundamentally. Jewishness isn't, of course. It isn't even restricted to your actual Red Sea pedestrians; look how much of it there is in Cockney and New York culture. Which is a great thing.
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Old 19th May 2016, 06:02 PM   #188
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
Of note, an attempt to point out that an Israeli-offered comprehensive peace plan that had the Golan Heights being returned didn't exist in the first place could be a valid counter-argument to the specific claim that Ziggurat made, if you backed it up reasonably, with directly relevant arguments, rather than the dodge that is "but the leader would be a hero if he got back the land."
You're suggesting I prove a negative before I've seen a trace of positive beyond "a comprehensive peace treaty". I asked for some before going into reasons why it is, on the face of it, unlikely and will thus have prompted Ziggurat to look into the details before accepting it as fact. It's not asking much for him to pass it on.

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I fully admit that I'm not an expert on that matter, though, so I'm not going to make any particular argument in any particular direction. Still, my opinion is much in line with theprestige's on this matter. As I've kept noting, war is a serious matter, with serious consequences, especially if the aggressor loses badly... in this case, repeatedly loses badly. That's before getting to the currently relevant question of who in Syria is actually worth negotiating with, at present.
War is, indeed, a serious matter. And when a party of Europeans decided to carve themselves a colony in Palestine they made war inevitable. "A century of conflict" is how somebody put it at the Balfour Declaration in 1917, using the rhetorical "century", of course. The actual century is nearly up and no sign of it ending. There are just too many Palestinians still, and no practicable way of getting rid of them.

When the region gets its act back together it'll leave Israel to chew on the Palestinians, to whom they were never that committed. The Arab nations' concerns were with what they saw as a stay-behind force for the British which, in concert with Maronite Lebanon for the French, gave Imperialists an entry point back into the Middle East any time they wanted to intervene. That concern no longer applies, obviously.

They were also concerned about getting hundreds of thousands of indigent Palestinian dumped on them when their ethnographic complexities were already nightmarishly complicated, and rightly so as events have shown in Jordan, Lebanon and Egypt. The Egyptians even gave up Gaza to be rid of them.

The conflict now is all within the bounds of the Historc Claim, between Palestinians and Zionists and between different interpretations of Zionism. (And between Zionists and the South Lebanese should they make another play for that part of the Historic Claim, but that seems unlikely.)
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Old 19th May 2016, 06:42 PM   #189
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
This will probably go much faster and happier if you simply explain whatever conclusion you think we should reach from the proposition that Muslims are sometimes victims of terrorism.
That your attempts at supporting your conclusion on the phrase are without merit.
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Old 19th May 2016, 06:50 PM   #190
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
That your attempts at supporting your conclusion on the phrase are without merit.
How did you get there from Muslims are sometimes victory of terrorism?
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Old 19th May 2016, 07:23 PM   #191
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Originally Posted by Roofgardener View Post
Good to see you debating in an objective fashion. Tell me, are you actually capable of using the word "Zionist" without attaching a parasitic perjorative, or is it.. like... a form of Torretts syndrome for you ?
You must surely have noticed that "Zionist" and "Zionism" are words I use extensively while words associated with parasites are pretty sparse. And yet you ask this. You are strange.

Since you bring it up, and with regard to the fantasy that the Jewish State was for sharing but the other children wouldn't play nice, the letters and diaries and articles and books from pre-Israel Zionism were replete with associations of infection, infestation and corruption with the Palestinians, imagery very familiar to anyone who's looked into Nazi propaganda.

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OK.. lets stop there. What makes you think that the early Zionist movement was racist ? You throw that term around from time to time... but justify it.
Read the things they said. Be aware that in the original German context "race" and "nation" are synonymous. You should also be aware that in the intellectual environment of the time, and right up to WW2, notions of race were prominent and acceptable in polite society.

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I don't believe I used the term "expulsion" ? (or if I did, it was in error).
You're speaking of the displacement of the Palestinians, blaming it on the Arab Nations not the Euopean colonialists who wanted their land but not them. I'm calling it for what it was - an expulsion.

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The bulk of the Palestinian Arabs where not expelled, they FLED, fearing that their towns where about to become combat zones.
The expulsions took place behind the Israeli lines, and went on into the early 50's.

All these Palestinians, if left in place, would have had a vote in a democrtatic Israel. And you're saying that the Israelis just lucked out when they turned out to be displaced. One of those amazing coincidences.

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They may also have projected their OWN historical behavior (the anti-Jewish pogroms and the crime of "Dhimmitude) onto the Jews, and expected bloodthirsty mass-retribution. (which - of course - did NOT happen).
You are projecting (as Zionists so often do) the Ashkenazi experience onto the wider Jewish world. In the Muslim world Jews prospered, had a great degree of self-government under the Dhimmi system, had freedom of movement, and lived unlike any Jews in Christendom. And they did not welcome Zionists. Godless and European, what's to like?

You seem to think that genocides are a common thing for people to enact and anticipate. They're really not.



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Hilarious.
At the beginning of the main Arab invasion, the Israeli's had no tanks, artillary (other than mortars), or military aircraft.
The Arabs had British and French tanks, artillary, Spitfires, and light bomber aircraft.

Crudely speaking, the Israeli's won because they where fighting for their lives and where highly motivated. The Arabs lost because they where fighting for a land-grab, and their troops where a product of their respective societies, and treated very poorly.
All through the war the Israelis had the opposition ounumbered, outgunnned, out-trained (thank the British for that) and unprepared.

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Oh REALLY ? Then why didn't they ?
Because they failed. That may be the most controversial thing I've said yet. Zionists can fail.

Crudely speaking, this is down to the difference between people fighting to take somebody else's stuff and people fighting to defend what's theirs.

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THEIR line ? All of the fighting took place within "Israel", which was modelled on the original UN mandate. It was the Jordanians that attacked Jerusalem. And as for an international city; the Arabs REJECTED that plan. they wanted Jerusalem (and indeed, the whole of the Levant) to be JORDANIAN (note the way that they annexed the West Bank).
Not so. The Jordanians didn't operate beyond the territory mandated to the Palestinians, and the Zionists attacked Jerusalem from the start. Who else were the Jordanians supposed to be attacking?

You now seem to be suggesting that the Zionists would have been happy with a Jewish State that didn't include Jerusalem, but by another fortunate coincidence were handed a good reason to attack it. In which they failed that time. They've got it now, and will tell anybody who asks how important it is to them. A deal-breaker to end them all, from what I hear.

The Jordanians, under their thoroughly Westernised ruling class, had no more liking for a Palestinian State than Israel. Their intention was to absorb the Palestinian territory - with the Palestinians still in it, not angry in Aman. After that they envisaged a mutually beneficial relationship with Israel economically and strategically, and indeed thought they had an agreement to that effect.

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WHAT "Palestinians" ? Jordan permanantly annexed the West Bank as being a part of Jordan, and all people therein where transferred to Jordanian nationality.
Yup. Jordan also got hundreds of thousands of angry and indigent Palestinians from the Israeli zone, which they had been assured they wouldn't get.

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I could go on, but I'd like to see you respond to the above.
Done and done. Knock yourself out.
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Old 19th May 2016, 07:23 PM   #192
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
That your attempts at supporting your conclusion on the phrase are without merit.
Does not follow. The argument was not about what the phrase always means, but about what it means when a suicide bomber uses it. There is no reason to assume it must means the same thing in all cases.
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Old 19th May 2016, 07:29 PM   #193
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
* most fascists internationally are aligned with and supportive of Israel, it's only the neo-nazi nutters that do that "Down with Israel, death to the Jews!" thing.
Jews aren't on the top rung of religious minorities any more. Very unusually for Europe, it has a multiplicity of them these days. And of course it's all about religion and culture these days, not race or colour, heaven forfend.

Jews are still second on the list, I'm pretty sure of that.
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Old 19th May 2016, 07:31 PM   #194
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Does not follow. The argument was not about what the phrase always means, but about what it means when a suicide bomber uses it. There is no reason to assume it must means the same thing in all cases.
'What it means to his victims' certainly does change is the victim is a Muslim who will then be saying the same thing as they try to stop the bleeding. It is worth going further into it than 'I'm a murdering douchebag' when people who are bigoted against Muslims and middle-easterners in general will use that omission to advance their views as well.

As I said earlier, one of the reasons I dislike so much of the anti-Israel arguments are how they mirror anti-Muslim/various middle-eastern ethnic groups bigotry in the US. Thus, I tend to seek to add perspective in when it is more likely to be taken wrongly without that additional information.
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Old 19th May 2016, 07:34 PM   #195
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Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
I'm not sure it's possible for anyone on this planet not to have internalized misogyny, to some degree or another.
Tell me about ... your mother.
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Old 19th May 2016, 07:41 PM   #196
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
That doesn't make any sense.
It makes sense in the sense that it's actually about things not making sense but being said anyway.

Does that make sense?

They make a superficial sense that's good enough to some people, becoming a catch-phrase which keepeth away thought from areas of potential discomfort.
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Old 19th May 2016, 07:45 PM   #197
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Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
You must surely have noticed that "Zionist" and "Zionism" are words I use extensively while words associated with parasites are pretty sparse. And yet you ask this. You are strange.
"parasitic pejorative" is a wonderful turn of phrase, but you seem to have completely misunderstood its meaning. It does not mean that YOU are describing Zionists as parasites, it means that Roofgardener is describing the pejoratives you allegedly use as parasites, with the word "Zionist" as the host that the pejorative infects. So whether or not you have talked about parasites is quite irrelevant to the claim.
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Old 19th May 2016, 07:47 PM   #198
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
'What it means to his victims' certainly does change is the victim is a Muslim who will then be saying the same thing as they try to stop the bleeding.
There is no reason to assume that the victim will think that the terrorist intended it the same way that the victim intends it.

Quote:
It is worth going further into it than 'I'm a murdering douchebag' when people who are bigoted against Muslims and middle-easterners in general will use that omission to advance their views as well.
You're trying to erect a firewall in the wrong place. It won't work.
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Old 19th May 2016, 08:10 PM   #199
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
There is no reason to assume that the victim will think that the terrorist intended it the same way that the victim intends it.
Which was not what I said.



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You're trying to erect a firewall in the wrong place. It won't work.
Layers are your friend.
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Old 19th May 2016, 08:13 PM   #200
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Which was not what I said.
You may not have said it, but your argument still requires that assumption.

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Layers are your friend.
Not really. They can confuse people about your true objective, and that can be very counterproductive to efforts to find common ground.
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