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Old 13th March 2019, 08:30 AM   #81
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Social prestige and standing you can't really argue against, but I don't buy networking. Mommy and Daddy's checkbook could get you a made up "consulting" job or a seat on some made up "committee" for pennies on the dollar of buying your way into a full on 4 year enrollment and you can network as an employee of a facility a lot easier then you could as a student.
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Old 13th March 2019, 08:32 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
You dislike hypotheticals, but employ hyperbole and euphemisms? Okay.
Oh, you are the type of person who needs a joke explained. Let's keep this short, shall we?

Quote:
I agree that school systems funded by local taxes are disastrous. Rich schools get better, and the poor worse.
You can't separate that fact from the examples.

Quote:
But back to the mother providing for her children by lying, defrauding and stealing? Wait...not providing. This wasn't about food or shelter. It was to glean a benefit she wasn't paying for. Is this how 'the poor' should raise their children?
Are you saying education is not essential?
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Old 13th March 2019, 08:41 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
Are you stating that he would not have qualified otherwise?
If you are - I am going to call you on that one and ask you to provide some evidence to back up that claim.
Maybe who knows, but when you are getting extra points as a legacy it is kind of dishonest to say that you earned your way in there by hard work alone like he did. Because being a legacy doesn't count as favoritism but being black does. No one expects legacies to be held to the same high standards as coloreds.
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Old 13th March 2019, 08:44 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by Donal View Post
Oh, you are the type of person who needs a joke explained. Let's keep this short, shall we?
My bad, apologies. I've been reading that use of hypotheticals is some sort of argumentative abomination. Skews my interpretations a bit.

Quote:
You can't separate that fact from the examples.
Oh, but you must. At least as our current system is set up (I think it is horrific, and my wife works in a poor school system. It is bad beyond belief and getting worse). But wanting a better education for your kids is no different from wanting anything superior for your kids. You work for it, help them at the library, whatever you can do. You do not lie and steal from others, even in the 'victimless' embezzling sense.

Quote:
Are you saying education is not essential?
Absolutely essential. A better one is something you might have to pay for. Sitting back and lying to provide better for your kids is wrong on a couple levels. Not to say I don't sympathize. I do. My bigger concern is actually what they are teaching those kids by example
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Old 13th March 2019, 08:45 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
have it when they graduate from whatever public university they can get into. A college degree from Arizona State and a million dollars in cash will go a long way.
What the hell?

Hehe
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Old 13th March 2019, 08:46 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Huh? The two stories you link are about mothers lying and falsifying records to get their kids a better education on someone else's dime. Teaching your kids to lie and cheat (by example) is not the mark of a good parent.
Yep this is why public education is a totally flawed idea, it is always about getting your kids an education on someoneelse's dime. Children of homeless parents should be barred from all education.

And remember keeping blacks out of your school is a totally legit reason for breaking off school districts too.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local...=.656f1440cac3

Can't let the have nots get a inch.
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Old 13th March 2019, 08:48 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Does that make it noble to steal from a taxpayer base for your advantage, or for that of your children? Would the women also be applauded for stealing from others in other ways, say to rob a laptop from city hall to give it to their kids?
Yep as homeless person she contributes to no tax base so no schooling for her kids. Enrolling them anywhere would be theft.
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Old 13th March 2019, 08:48 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
You dislike hypotheticals, but employ hyperbole and euphemisms? Okay.

I agree that school systems funded by local taxes are disastrous. Rich schools get better, and the poor worse.

But back to the mother providing for her children by lying, defrauding and stealing? Wait...not providing. This wasn't about food or shelter. It was to glean a benefit she wasn't paying for. Is this how 'the poor' should raise their children?

It's how the rich got rich, so yes.

When the system (the actual system, not the nominal one) changes then my answer might change.

I'd commit much, much more heinous acts to give my kids (if I had one) a leg up.
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Old 13th March 2019, 08:50 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Social prestige and standing you can't really argue against, but I don't buy networking. Mommy and Daddy's checkbook could get you a made up "consulting" job or a seat on some made up "committee" for pennies on the dollar of buying your way into a full on 4 year enrollment and you can network as an employee of a facility a lot easier then you could as a student.
Mom and dad sure could. Hobnobbing at a sports camp with elites could have you making your own soon to be powerful peer pals
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Old 13th March 2019, 08:51 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Oh, but you must. At least as our current system is set up (I think it is horrific, and my wife works in a poor school system. It is bad beyond belief and getting worse).
But they deserve that, if only they chose parents with more money they could have a chance. Fools.
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Old 13th March 2019, 08:52 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Yep as homeless person she contributes to no tax base so no schooling for her kids. Enrolling them anywhere would be theft.
Yep as a homeless person she has every right to steal from whoever she pleases with no recourse. Obeying any laws and whatnot is stepping on her freedom. Yep.
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Old 13th March 2019, 08:55 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Yep as a homeless person she has every right to steal from whoever she pleases with no recourse. Obeying any laws and whatnot is stepping on her freedom. Yep.
Got an actual argument of where they could actually enroll then as a homeless person? If it is stealing to enroll where they are not paying taxes then it would be stealing anywhere. So clearly educating homeless children is theft as you define theft.
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Old 13th March 2019, 08:55 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
But they deserve that, if only they chose parents with more money they could have a chance. Fools.
Yes, it's a mess. Doesn't make any kind of stealing noble.

These women were not stealing bread to survive. They just wanted the kind of education people pay out and make sacrifices for...for free. Not shedding too many tears here. They wanted a leg up that they didn't have the checkbook for. And taught their kids to be liars and thieves in the process.
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Old 13th March 2019, 08:58 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Got an actual argument of where they could actually enroll then as a homeless person? If it is stealing to enroll where they are not paying taxes then it would be stealing anywhere. So clearly educating homeless children is theft as you define theft.
It would depend on the laws of your place of residence. You certainly don't get to lie to choose your school for free.

How would this compare to an honest working class family that cannot afford to live in the superior school district? Should the honest workers lie and steal too, if it gets them a cheaper education?
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Old 13th March 2019, 09:15 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Yes, it's a mess. Doesn't make any kind of stealing noble.

These women were not stealing bread to survive. They just wanted the kind of education people pay out and make sacrifices for...for free. Not shedding too many tears here. They wanted a leg up that they didn't have the checkbook for. And taught their kids to be liars and thieves in the process.
Exactly homeless children should not be educated because that is theft as their parents are not paying into the system anywhere. Why wouldn't it be theft if they were in your wifes classroom? At least the school is getting only what the children there deserve. Modern segregation works!
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Old 13th March 2019, 09:17 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
It would depend on the laws of your place of residence.
And with no place of residence the children get no school, simple.
Quote:
How would this compare to an honest working class family that cannot afford to live in the superior school district? Should the honest workers lie and steal too, if it gets them a cheaper education?
It's almost as if there are problems with the american school system, like it was designed to keep people in their place. That would be crazy right?
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Old 13th March 2019, 09:21 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Exactly homeless children should not be educated because that is theft as their parents are not paying into the system anywhere. Why wouldn't it be theft if they were in your wifes classroom? At least the school is getting only what the children there deserve. Modern segregation works!
Cheap strawman. Your educational system is funded by the municipality where you live, and governed by it's laws. That is payed for by taxpayer dollars, and directed by voting. You don't have those benefits in any old municipality of your random freaking choosing
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Old 13th March 2019, 09:24 AM   #98
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Hey, I wanna attend the Oxford! I'll just lie about my residency and have someone else's taxes foot the bill! While we are endorsing lying and fraud, let's doctor up an athletic scholarship and fake the grades!
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Old 13th March 2019, 09:24 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
As a rule its the poor white trash that complain, as they are screwed with or without affirmative action, as its usually instituted.
.....
Arguing about "race" is often a way to avoid talking about economic class. The rich have always played the poor against each other. When poor rural whites and poor urban blacks look at each other and say "You know what? We're both getting screwed!," that will be the first day of the revolution.

And it won't matter what college you bought your way into.
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Old 13th March 2019, 09:26 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Arguing about "race" is often a way to avoid talking about economic class. The rich have always played the poor against each other. When poor rural whites and poor urban blacks look at each other and say "You know what? We're both getting screwed!," that will be the first day of the revolution.

And it won't matter what college you bought your way into.
I see another brother is waiting for the sign...
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Old 13th March 2019, 09:42 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Does that make it noble to steal from a taxpayer base for your advantage, or for that of your children? Would the women also be applauded for stealing from others in other ways, say to rob a laptop from city hall to give it to their kids?
You’re the one introducing the terms “noble” and “applauded” into the discussion, so what do you say you drag that poorly-constructed straw man back to the cornfield where it belongs?

No one is celebrating what these women did. We’re lamenting the fact that this is what it came to for them.

These examples are to point out the gross inequities in a very broken system.

No one should have to risk jail time just for trying to give their children a better life.

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Old 13th March 2019, 09:47 AM   #102
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I'm confused. There are homeless children and one's worry is that their education isn't good enough? Maybe if someone can't house their child their child should be in foster care or something until their life is in order. That's probably harsh but if you care about your kids and their upbringing I'd think one would try to put their care first.

Can this not be done without "risking jail time"?

Last edited by pharphis; 13th March 2019 at 09:48 AM.
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Old 13th March 2019, 09:47 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
As a rule its the poor white trash that complain, as they are screwed with or without affirmative action, as its usually instituted.
Anyone who believes Affrimative Action is screwing them over is being fed lies by the people who are actually screwing them over.
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Old 13th March 2019, 09:48 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by pharphis View Post
I'm confused. There are homeless children and one's worry is that their education isn't good enough? Maybe if someone can't house their child their child should be in foster care or something.
I think the homeless children were hypothetical, but I may have missed a link somewhere....
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Old 13th March 2019, 09:50 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by pharphis View Post
I'm confused. There are homeless children and one's worry is that their education isn't good enough? Maybe if someone can't house their child their child should be in foster care or something.
Perhaps someday humans will evolve to the point that we have the capacity to be concerned about multiple things at once.

But until then, your argument is staggering in its insight and brilliance.
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Old 13th March 2019, 09:53 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Cheap strawman.
The irony is so thick in the air that it stings the eyes.
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Old 13th March 2019, 10:02 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Anyone who believes Affrimative Action is screwing them over is being fed lies by the people who are actually screwing them over.
Some people are getting screwed over from both ends: Not enough money to bribe their way in; not enough action to affirm their way in.
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Old 13th March 2019, 10:02 AM   #108
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All of a sudden, Bernie's free college for all is looking like a better idea.
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Old 13th March 2019, 10:08 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
But without the social networking and prestige. Those pack some punch, too. More than a checkbook, some say.
I think the USC girl had over a million instagram followers before this was reported. Maybe not the same networking most think of for a job.

Could not find that but according to the Washington Post she had 1,400,000 YouTube subscribers.
Not as good as the Daddy Shark (do do do do do) people but not bad.

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Old 13th March 2019, 10:18 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Cheap strawman. Your educational system is funded by the municipality where you live, and governed by it's laws. That is payed for by taxpayer dollars, and directed by voting. You don't have those benefits in any old municipality of your random freaking choosing
What municipality does a homeless person count as then? You are living in your van with your kids how do you determine what municipality this counts as?

Of course the upscale ones make sure to have the police run off these worthless people so it is harder to put in enough time in those municipalities.

Yes the best answer is to take more from the worthless kids your wife teaches I guess. Their parents deserve it.
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Old 13th March 2019, 10:23 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
I think the homeless children were hypothetical, but I may have missed a link somewhere....
It stems from this case.

https://www.nbcconnecticut.com/news/...120004374.html

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/ta...ll-sentencing/
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Old 13th March 2019, 10:38 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by eeyore1954 View Post
Did I read right. 500,000 to get into USC.
Not that itís not a good school but that is a waste of money.
It's a social status thing more than anything else. When I lived in California, USC stood for University of Spoiled Children.
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Old 13th March 2019, 10:54 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
It would depend on the laws of your place of residence. You certainly don't get to lie to choose your school for free.

How would this compare to an honest working class family that cannot afford to live in the superior school district? Should the honest workers lie and steal too, if it gets them a cheaper education?
"Homeless" people are living somewhere, even if it's a shelter or a parked car or an alley. That's where their kids should be able to attend school, and appropriate accommodations should be made. It's not like somebody from South Central trying to sneak into Beverly Hills High. A basic premise of public education is that the society benefits when all children receive a basic education. If you want to argue that only taxpayers are entitled to send their kids to school, you are pretty much ruling out the unemployed, people who don't own property, people who live on welfare or disability benefits, etc. Is that really the argument you wanna make?
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Old 13th March 2019, 11:06 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
It's a social status thing more than anything else. When I lived in California, USC stood for University of Spoiled Children.
My brother went there in the 60s and introduced me to the saying “pay the fee get a B”. Although he said it applied to athletes. With the addendum “show up every day, get an A”.

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Old 13th March 2019, 11:19 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by Regnad Kcin View Post
All of a sudden, Bernie's free college for all is looking like a better idea.
Elite education is a positional good. More people earning degrees could only intensify the need to distinguish oneself by attending a highly selective institution.
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Old 13th March 2019, 11:23 AM   #116
Bob001
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Originally Posted by pharphis View Post
I'm confused. There are homeless children and one's worry is that their education isn't good enough? Maybe if someone can't house their child their child should be in foster care or something until their life is in order. That's probably harsh but if you care about your kids and their upbringing I'd think one would try to put their care first.

Can this not be done without "risking jail time"?
An alternative would be to provide modest housing for families who can't afford it, which would certainly be cheaper and more effective than seizing the kids into foster care and locking up the parents. And that is generally the principle under which welfare offices operate, except they don't have the resources to provide housing to everybody who needs it. Unless they are severely disturbed -- for which there should be a different set of services -- nobody, and certainly no parent of young children, would choose to be homeless.
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Old 13th March 2019, 11:25 AM   #117
theprestige
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Originally Posted by Regnad Kcin View Post
All of a sudden, Bernie's free college for all is looking like a better idea.
Kind of, yes. But as Cain points out, it's kind of a positional good. Rather than giving everyone free college, I'd give everyone free access to a short and rotating list of practical trade and degree programs. Teaching credentials, nursing programs, welder's and electrician's certs, STEM degrees... That sort of thing to start. If someone wants to add yet another Underwater Basketweaving PhD to the world, let them do it on their own dime.
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Old 13th March 2019, 11:30 AM   #118
Bob001
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Originally Posted by Regnad Kcin View Post
All of a sudden, Bernie's free college for all is looking like a better idea.
Let's remember that as recently as the '80s, state colleges were cheap enough that kids could work their way through with summer jobs, and some systems were actually tuition-free. Five- and six-figure college loan balances are a relatively new development. Free community college and trade school, and affordable advanced education, is not some wild socialist fantasy.

Last edited by Bob001; 13th March 2019 at 11:31 AM.
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Old 13th March 2019, 11:33 AM   #119
ponderingturtle
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Let's remember that as recently as the '80s, state colleges were cheap enough that kids could work their way through with summer jobs, and some systems were actually tuition-free. Five- and six-figure college loan balances are a relatively new development. Free community college and trade school, and affordable advanced education, is not some wild socialist fantasy.
Stop talking like the 50's america was not the socialist hellscape it clearly was!
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Old 13th March 2019, 11:36 AM   #120
Bob001
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Stop talking like the 50's america was not the socialist hellscape it clearly was!
Yeah, yeah, Dwight Eisenhower = Mao Tse-Tung.
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