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Old 8th April 2019, 06:00 AM   #41
angrysoba
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
I had assumed that it would be financed through taxation, personally.

I listened (a while ago) to the interview with Andrew Yang posted upthread, and he seemed to be talking about paying for it by shifting things in the budget around, not just printing money.

I forget exactly what the plan was, but it was at least partly dependant on:
A) UBI making other government programs redundant, so it would replace them rather than being spent on top of them.
B) UBI acting as an economic stimulus thus bringing in more tax revenues.

He suggested that after those things the amount that taxes would need to be raised would be quite small, though I forget the actual numbers he gave, and am not expert enough to know if they were reasonable, though it at least sounded reasonable to me.
He argued for adding a VAT to sales, meaning that big companies that otherwise avoid tax and may leave the country if given a hefty bill will instead have their products taxed.
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 8th April 2019, 06:04 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I'm saying do you think all the forces that opposing (Insert social change here) are going to go away when (Insert social change here) is implemented?

If a "Force" be it government, business, social, whatever can keep a country from doing (insert thing here) for X number of years... you don't think it's gonna have power to make (insert thing here) less efficient when it finally happens?

I've never understood why "Systems work better in countries where they are wanted" is such a controversial topic.

ETA: "Political System Change" would probably be a better wording than "Social change" but my you get my point...
If the Negro were to live as a Free man and enjoy the Franchise, it should have come to pass by now. No, slavery is his lot in life, alas. Were it otherwise twould have happen'd hitherto.
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 8th April 2019, 06:09 AM   #43
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*Sighs* I'm just saying we have to factor in the same people who are opposing X as like... a solid 90% chance they are also going to make X harder then it needs to be when/if it is ever implemented. That's all.

Implementing a system where X percent of the population wants is has difference depending on the value of X. That's all. (With some "Passion/Stubbornness of the people who oppose/support X" and "Levels of power of the people who support/oppose X" variables in there for good measure)

Or here I'll put it simply.

Raise your hand if you want UBI.

Okay now raise your hands if you want UBI... if the Republican are in charge of the government.
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Old 8th April 2019, 06:09 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
I too am interested by the idea, but . . .

If we try it and it fails, will we be able to go back?
Probably not. And I expect failure. The gods of the copybook heading cannot be denied their say.
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Old 8th April 2019, 06:24 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
*Very slowly* This is America. If the Johnny Landlords, the Martin "Punchable Face" Shkreli's, and so forths are told today that everyone in American is going to get a guaranteed... 500 bucks a month starting tomorrow, you can rest assured that by 11:59 tonight they will have raised their prices to match.

People just don't get this but the reason some countries don't have certain things is the same reason they wouldn't work if they did. If America was the kind of country in which Universal Healthcare, Free College, and UBI could work, it would already be a country that had it.

We don't UBI in America because we have greedy people in position of power. It's also the reason it wouldn't work.

Saying "Well it works in (insert glorious post-scarcity European utopia of choice here)" is really, really missing the point.
Towns with a large military presence have high rents because landlords know what the military basic housing allowance is, so all rents start from there. Sucks to be a civilian renter in those places.
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Old 8th April 2019, 06:26 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
I had assumed that it would be financed through taxation, personally.
I think that's the general idea. But I don't see why that would cause inflation as was feared in several posts.
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Old 8th April 2019, 06:27 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Towns with a large military presence have high rents because landlords know what the military basic housing allowance is, so all rents start from there. Sucks to be a civilian renter in those places.
I've literally seen this happen. The military will announce the new BAH* rates for Zipcode Whatever will raise from 400 to 450 bucks on Friday and on Monday morning every rent property in the zipcode that has a measurable military presence will raise the rent by 50 bucks. It's unapologetic, they don't have it or why they are doing it. They'll literally say that's why they are doing it.

*Basic Allowance for Housing, essentially how much extra money the military gives you to live off base if you are authorized to do so
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Old 8th April 2019, 06:27 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
*Sighs* I'm just saying we have to factor in the same people who are opposing X as like... a solid 90% chance they are also going to make X harder then it needs to be when/if it is ever implemented. That's all.

Implementing a system where X percent of the population wants is has difference depending on the value of X. That's all. (With some "Passion/Stubbornness of the people who oppose/support X" and "Levels of power of the people who support/oppose X" variables in there for good measure)

Or here I'll put it simply.

Raise your hand if you want UBI.

Okay now raise your hands if you want UBI... if the Republican are in charge of the government.
Two things:

1) This isn't US Politics, so the discussion doesn't have to be immediately poisoned by the insane "I won't eat that fried chicken if the RepubLicanz is eating it!" American wrestling approach to ideas.

And

2) probably from the above, why would it make a difference to anyone if UBI is introduced by Republicans or Democrats?

The thing is, I have no idea if it would work or be successful, and although you say you're "just sayin'", it sounds more like, "Take your stinkin' ideas talk and get the hell outta my goddamned office!"
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 8th April 2019, 06:27 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
He argued for adding a VAT to sales, meaning that big companies that otherwise avoid tax and may leave the country if given a hefty bill will instead have their products taxed.
Why? That makes no sense.

ETA: Oh, I get it now. Yes.
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Old 8th April 2019, 06:28 AM   #50
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Perhaps those who don't actually need a UBI could do a trade. Like how if you delay taking SS payments they go up, because the government profits on that deal because more people die off before. But those who don't die off benefit from increased payments. It's a gamble. Perhaps they could do that with the UBI scheme: those who don't need it could waive it, in exchange for getting higher SS payments in retirement.
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Old 8th April 2019, 06:32 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
*Very slowly* This is America. If the Johnny Landlords, the Martin "Punchable Face" Shkreli's, and so forths are told today that everyone in American is going to get a guaranteed... 500 bucks a month starting tomorrow, you can rest assured that by 11:59 tonight they will have raised their prices to match.
What you're missing, as I pointed out above, is that UBI is an addition to, not a multiplication of, income. Prices raise, normally, by multiplication, so the effect of price rises hits people who earn, and spend, more money proportionately. In effect all that happens is that spending power gets transferred from people who earn more money to people who earn less.

Dave
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Old 8th April 2019, 06:35 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by GnaGnaMan View Post
Why? That makes no sense.
In context it makes perfect sense; again, the effect of VAT is to raise income proportionately to spend, which means people with higher incomes pay more and people with lower incomes pay less.

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Old 8th April 2019, 06:45 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
You what?
He thinks it'll fail unless it's paired with something else.
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Old 8th April 2019, 06:48 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
What you're missing, as I pointed out above, is that UBI is an addition to, not a multiplication of, income. Prices raise, normally, by multiplication, so the effect of price rises hits people who earn, and spend, more money proportionately. In effect all that happens is that spending power gets transferred from people who earn more money to people who earn less.

Dave
Then it's not UBI it's... socialism-lite.
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Old 8th April 2019, 06:53 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Then it's not UBI it's... socialism-lite.
No, it's UBI, by definition. I can see that it would look like socialism in the US, but it avoids a lot of the state interference in people's private affairs that's implicit in, and a major problem with, socialism.

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Old 8th April 2019, 06:57 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
In context it makes perfect sense; again, the effect of VAT is to raise income proportionately to spend, which means people with higher incomes pay more and people with lower incomes pay less.

Dave
Are we talking about Value Added Tax here?
That tax is highly regressive. People with high incomes pay proportionately less.

What I understood the quote to mean is that VAT would cause companies to leave the jurisdiction. I'm now quite confused as to what it really is supposed to mean.
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Old 8th April 2019, 07:02 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by GnaGnaMan View Post
Are we talking about Value Added Tax here?
That tax is highly regressive. People with high incomes pay proportionately less.
How, exactly? A flat rate value added tax should result in payment being proportional to spend, hence neither progressive nor regressive.

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Old 8th April 2019, 07:06 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Perhaps those who don't actually need a UBI could do a trade. Like how if you delay taking SS payments they go up, because the government profits on that deal because more people die off before. But those who don't die off benefit from increased payments. It's a gamble. Perhaps they could do that with the UBI scheme: those who don't need it could waive it, in exchange for getting higher SS payments in retirement.
Deferring government payment obligations to a later date tends to be a bad deal for taxpayers. It makes it easier for government to increase total spending by kicking the can down the road. If you've got extra income you don't need, invest it yourself. If that feels insufficiently patriotic, invest it in government bonds.

Not that this makes UBI a good idea, mind you.
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Old 8th April 2019, 07:07 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
How, exactly? A flat rate value added tax should result in payment being proportional to spend, hence neither progressive nor regressive.

Dave
The more income someone has, the less they spend. More money goes into savings/investments.
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Old 8th April 2019, 07:16 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by GnaGnaMan View Post
The more income someone has, the less they spend. More money goes into savings/investments.
Yes. That's exactly what happens. That's why all lottery winners go on to have successful financial lives.
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Old 8th April 2019, 08:01 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Yes. That's exactly what happens. That's why all lottery winners go on to have successful financial lives.
I am not sure if you are trying to make a point here or just a stupid joke.
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Old 8th April 2019, 08:07 AM   #62
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My opinion on this matter is that the state should at least attempt to provide each long-term resident with an acceptable standard of living, including access to healthcare and other basic public services.

Just about every single developed western country is rich enough that it can afford this.
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Old 8th April 2019, 08:10 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Yes. That's exactly what happens. That's why all lottery winners go on to have successful financial lives.
I've always considered the dreadful fates of lottery winners to be an example of selected sample: people who are clever about money tend not to play the lottery to begin with, so of course the winners are disproportionately bad at money.
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Old 8th April 2019, 08:16 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I've always considered the dreadful fates of lottery winners to be an example of selected sample: people who are clever about money tend not to play the lottery to begin with, so of course the winners are disproportionately bad at money.
“Lottery: A tax on people who are bad at math.”
― Ambrose Bierce, The Unabridged Devil's Dictionary

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Old 8th April 2019, 09:11 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Probably not. And I expect failure. The gods of the copybook heading cannot be denied their say.
Is that a large or a small pantheon?
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Old 8th April 2019, 12:21 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by GnaGnaMan View Post
The more income someone has, the less they spend. More money goes into savings/investments.

Huh? You're talking percentage, not absolute, if there's any sense to that statement. If you tax consumption, not labour, it is also quite easy to put an extra price tag on luxury goods while leaving the goods everyone needs with low tax. This is even the case in Germany and comparable countries, but it can get quite extreme in countries like Norway, and I recently learned that Indians who want a Ferrari have to pay 250%(!) tax on it. On the seller side tax haven trickery gets much more difficult as well. The payment goes to where they sell.
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Old 8th April 2019, 12:44 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Is that a large or a small pantheon?
I case you aren't familiar with the reference:
http://www.kiplingsociety.co.uk/poems_copybook.htm
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Old 8th April 2019, 12:58 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I've always considered the dreadful fates of lottery winners to be an example of selected sample: people who are clever about money tend not to play the lottery to begin with, so of course the winners are disproportionately bad at money.

These are the same people who need the UBI.
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Old 8th April 2019, 01:15 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I've literally seen this happen. The military will announce the new BAH* rates for Zipcode Whatever will raise from 400 to 450 bucks on Friday and on Monday morning every rent property in the zipcode that has a measurable military presence will raise the rent by 50 bucks. It's unapologetic, they don't have it or why they are doing it. They'll literally say that's why they are doing it.

*Basic Allowance for Housing, essentially how much extra money the military gives you to live off base if you are authorized to do so
Happens all the time

For some reason some people can't get it that it will obviously happen

An example

Our new govt raised the student housing supplement by 50 dollars a week when they got in.

This happened

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/pol...or-rent-spikes
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 8th April 2019, 01:20 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by GnaGnaMan View Post
I am attracted by UBI schemes for moral reasons. People should work for a reward, not to avoid punishment.
Denying food, shelter and clothing to someone is cruel and - in an industrialized society - needlessly so.
There are lots of things that making working worthwhile: Luxuries, status, fulfillment. Fear of destitution should not be one of them.
Every time I have had this discussion in real life it has been with someone of about my own financial class. They always say: why would anyone work if they get paid for nothing?

The only response I can think of is: Why do you work?

They could easily afford an annuity that would pay them $1,000 per month for the rest of their lives and quit their jobs. But they don't. For the same reason anybody who has secured enough money to secure a meager living continues to go back to work: for a better life.
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Old 8th April 2019, 01:21 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
These are the same people who need the UBI.
It almost seems like you are saying that poor people are stupid. I'm sure you didn't mean to say that, but I thought I would point it out in case you got some negative responses. I'd hate for you to be caught unaware.
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Old 8th April 2019, 01:26 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Every time I have had this discussion in real life it has been with someone of about my own financial class. They always say: why would anyone work if they get paid for nothing?

The only response I can think of is: Why do you work?

They could easily afford an annuity that would pay them $1,000 per month for the rest of their lives and quit their jobs. But they don't. For the same reason anybody who has secured enough money to secure a meager living continues to go back to work: for a better life.
The problem is that for some people, that's not enough incentive. Some people would just rather not work, and aren't interested in bettering their lives. We know that these people exist, because we have some of them even without UBI. The open question is how many people would stop working, or work less, if they didn't have to. If it's a small enough group, then it's manageable. If it's a sufficiently large group (and a majority isn't required), that can wreck the whole project.
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Old 8th April 2019, 01:27 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
It almost seems like you are saying that poor people are stupid.
I wouldn't say that. But generally, stupid people are poor.
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Old 8th April 2019, 01:31 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Every time I have had this discussion in real life it has been with someone of about my own financial class. They always say: why would anyone work if they get paid for nothing?

The only response I can think of is: Why do you work?

They could easily afford an annuity that would pay them $1,000 per month for the rest of their lives and quit their jobs. But they don't. For the same reason anybody who has secured enough money to secure a meager living continues to go back to work: for a better life.
From David Wong's: Why the Future Will Be Ruled By B.S.

Quote:
If you want to know what the future looks like, there it is. The future is going to hang on whether or not businesses will be able to convince you to pay money for things you can otherwise get for free.

Some of you think I'm about to talk about file sharing and DRM and the evil record labels. But that's just a teaser of what's coming. The world has changed. All the rules we were trained to believe about society from birth until now are about to go out the window.

Futurists and sci-fi writers talk about a "post-scarcity" society, meaning it's like Star Trek, where matter replicators and fusion reactors have ended all shortages. On one hand, that now looks like a ridiculous pipe dream, but in a lot of areas of our life, we're already there. Think about the porn. There's more porn than air now. Literally -- air is limited, but we have machines that can convert energy into .jpegs of titties from now until the heat death of the universe. Titties are post-scarcity.

Now think about how many people you know who live in apartments or trailers barely big enough to host a game of Twister but who don't care because they spend every waking moment at home either playing World of Warcraft or surfing the Internet. They're not looking for a two-story house with a swimming pool and a white picket fence. With a $300 netbook and a $20-a-month Internet connection they can connect with friends, meet girls, get their entertainment, pursue their hobbies and stay in contact with family or co-workers. They may even work from home.
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Last edited by JoeMorgue; 8th April 2019 at 01:34 PM.
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Old 8th April 2019, 01:31 PM   #75
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Ideally, every citizen would be productive enough to provide for their own survival needs, plus four "surpluses":

After a citizen provides for own their food and shelter, they should -
- provide a surplus to fund their immediate enjoyment of life, and
- provide a surplus to find their ultimate retirement from work, and
- provide a surplus to fund the operating costs of the government

In reality, not all citizens can be so productive, so a fourth surplus is also necessary:
- provide a surplus to fund the shortfall suffered by citizens who are not so productive.

Now, many people are unable to be completely productive, according to my formula above. That's legitimate, and we should definitely help those people - and we do help those people.

There are other people who are able to be productive, but choose not to be. If the plan is to siphon off additional "surplus" productivity from those who have it, and distribute it to those who need it, then I would like to have a clear understanding and agreement about who gets it, and why. For the truly disabled, a Perpetual Basic Income makes sense. For the abled-but-underproductive, a Temporary Basic Income makes sense. Right? A paraplegic always gets a helping hand from us. A callow youth gets a leg up, and is then expected to pull their own weight once they get going.

Universal basic income doesn't make much sense. What problem is it supposed to solve? The problem of people having to put in a lot of effort to survive? Somebody has to put in that effort, otherwise where does the money for the UBI come from?

The basic premise of society is that everyone who is able to work hard and provide their own basic income, should do so. Those that are not, should get help from those who are. The idea of giving help to those who are able to do the work to provide for themselves, seems perverse to me.
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Old 8th April 2019, 01:41 PM   #76
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I've been pro universal basic income (or similar schemes) for most of my adult life. But I recently read Douglas Rushkoff's critical essay, and now I'm not so sure. If the Uber creeps are pro-, I have to assume there's some problem with it that I haven't considered yet.
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Old 8th April 2019, 01:54 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
I've been pro universal basic income (or similar schemes) for most of my adult life. But I recently read Douglas Rushkoff's critical essay, and now I'm not so sure. If the Uber creeps are pro-, I have to assume there's some problem with it that I haven't considered yet.
What problems have you considered, and how does your preferred version of UBI address them?
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Old 8th April 2019, 01:56 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
The problem is that for some people, that's not enough incentive. Some people would just rather not work, and aren't interested in bettering their lives. We know that these people exist, because we have some of them even without UBI. The open question is how many people would stop working, or work less, if they didn't have to. If it's a small enough group, then it's manageable. If it's a sufficiently large group (and a majority isn't required), that can wreck the whole project.
And do you want those people working for you? Even in the mail room?

I don't.

Do you want to pay people to manage these people and have them dig holes that could be more cheaply dug by a guy who wants to buy a house and can operate a backhoe?

I don't.

I don't think UBI is a slam dunk, but I do think most of that arguments against it are about as simplistic and misleading as the arguments against gay marriage or legalization of pot. Get past the platitudes.
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Old 8th April 2019, 01:59 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I wouldn't say that. But generally, stupid people are poor.
And yet, when the poor are given any modicum of support we find that there are some very smart folks amongst their ranks. Why should we deprive our future of those smart people? Do we not lose out when a smart kids has to skip high school to hold onto a bad part-time job so that his siblings are fed and clothed?
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Old 8th April 2019, 02:03 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
From David Wong's: Why the Future Will Be Ruled By B.S.
Quote:
Now think about how many people you know who live in apartments or trailers barely big enough to host a game of Twister but who don't care because they spend every waking moment at home either playing World of Warcraft or surfing the Internet. They're not looking for a two-story house with a swimming pool and a white picket fence. With a $300 netbook and a $20-a-month Internet connection they can connect with friends, meet girls, get their entertainment, pursue their hobbies and stay in contact with family or co-workers. They may even work from home.
I don't know any.

But, if they are happy with that life I'd rather they stay in their apartment than drive my kid's bus.
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