ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 10th April 2019, 03:26 AM   #241
Matthew Best
Philosopher
 
Matthew Best's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Leicester Square, London
Posts: 6,805
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
It's like when I'm told Universal Health Care won't lead to people being less worried about their health. If people aren't health concerned in a society where they have to deal with both the health and financial consequences of poor health decision, the idea that if we take away the financial consequences they going to magically start being more health conscious is.... off to me.
I guess by that logic Americans must be the healthiest people in the world as they are so worried about the financial and health consequences of, for example, eating too much.
Matthew Best is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th April 2019, 03:46 AM   #242
Dave Rogers
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles
 
Dave Rogers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD
Posts: 29,450
Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
3. Others have pointed out that people will be free to turn down crappy jobs and crappy wages. Ergo, wages must rise for those crappy jobs (after all, they still have to be done) must rise, ergo prices for the goods and services those jobs provide must increase.
Not necessarily. Suppose there's a crappy job that currently pays $1000 a month. Now introduce a $1000/month UBI. Some people will still be prepared to do crappy jobs for $1500/month, for example because they don't have the skills or training or motivation to do anything more well-paid. But since they're already getting $1000/month without doing the crappy job, the employer can pay $500 a month over and above UBI.

I would imagine one immediate consequence of UBI, just as inevitable as prices rising, would be that a lot of wages would fall, probably by roughly the amount of UBI. If you don't factor that in, you're not making a fair comparison.

Dave
__________________
Inspiring discussion of Sharknado is not a good sign for the audience expectations of your new high-concept SF movie sequel.

- Myriad
Dave Rogers is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th April 2019, 03:50 AM   #243
Dave Rogers
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles
 
Dave Rogers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD
Posts: 29,450
Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Exactly how would this occur?
The same way as rises in prices. Seriously, can you imagine a company not taking UBI as an opportunity to cut its wage bill in any way it could get away with?

Dave
__________________
Inspiring discussion of Sharknado is not a good sign for the audience expectations of your new high-concept SF movie sequel.

- Myriad
Dave Rogers is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th April 2019, 03:54 AM   #244
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 9,041
Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
The same way as rises in prices. Seriously, can you imagine a company not taking UBI as an opportunity to cut its wage bill in any way it could get away with?

Dave
I can.
I think UBI will make wages rise, since people have a much easier time saying "screw you guys, I'm going home".

Companies will have to work hard to create a sense of loyalty.
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th April 2019, 04:26 AM   #245
Arcade22
Philosopher
 
Arcade22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sweden
Posts: 5,500
Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Is that right? No wonder so many people are claiming asylum these days.
How did you expect asylum seekers to survive? They are not legally allowed to work and it's quite likely they have little if any cash to spend. Hence why they are given accommodation and money to cover their expenses.

Note: there's a difference between an "asylum seeker" and someone that has had their status as a refugee confirmed or has been given some other type of residency status.
__________________
We would be a lot safer if the Government would take its money out of science and put it into astrology and the reading of palms. Only in superstition is there hope. - Kurt Vonnegut Jr

Last edited by Arcade22; 10th April 2019 at 04:33 AM.
Arcade22 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th April 2019, 05:17 AM   #246
Beelzebuddy
Philosopher
 
Beelzebuddy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 6,933
Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
I would imagine one immediate consequence of UBI, just as inevitable as prices rising, would be that a lot of wages would fall, probably by roughly the amount of UBI.
Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
I think UBI will make wages rise, since people have a much easier time saying "screw you guys, I'm going home".
Why not both? In fact I think we'll see a little of everything people have foretold in this thread. Overall wages would fall a bit, overall cost of living would rise a bit, most people's overall situation will not change all that much. Ten grand or so, divvied up a hundred different ways over the course of a year, is not that much money for most of America.

But for some people it is a HUGE amount. These are the people who are currently in wage slavery conditions, kept from bettering themselves because they have to work their asses off just to make ends meet. These are people who are already surrounded by predatory lenders and other sharks. These are people who are probably already receiving some kind of government assistance, on which we are already spending a good chunk of what UBI would cost constantly checking whether they are still poor enough to have to jump through hoops for the payments. These are the people who will see a significantly better standard of living, whom companies will suddenly have to compete for to staff their cleaning services, their crappy part time retail jobs and "gig economy" you're-a-contractor-so-no-benefits-too-bad-sucker positions.

Last edited by Beelzebuddy; 10th April 2019 at 05:21 AM.
Beelzebuddy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th April 2019, 05:26 AM   #247
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 19,878
Okay here's the problem.

We're being sold an "add-on" that is reality would require a totally new system. It seems most everybody is making at least some tacit admissions that UBI would require some other major reforms to effectively work; some forms of price control, maybe some forms of salary control to work, etc. So don't call it UBI and act like that concept exists in a vacuum. Don't sell me a Michelin Pilot Super Sport ZP 245/40-18 Tire without mentioning I need to buy the rest of the Corvette to make it work and keep insisting we're only talking about whether or not to buy the tire. If other systems have to be put in place to make this system work, it's one big system you're advocating for.

And if the system has the government setting prices and wages, that system has a name and I'm not a fan of it.
__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset
- "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th April 2019, 05:30 AM   #248
3point14
Pi
 
3point14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 18,067
Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
I can.
I think UBI will make wages rise, since people have a much easier time saying "screw you guys, I'm going home".

Companies will have to work hard to create a sense of loyalty.

Yes, the choice changes from "Leave this horrid place I hate and starve to death" to "Leave this horrid place and not have that new computer I wanted".
__________________
Up the River!

Anyone that wraps themselves in the Union Flag and also lives in tax exile is a [redacted]
3point14 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th April 2019, 05:40 AM   #249
Oystein
Penultimate Amazing
 
Oystein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 16,649
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Okay here's the problem.

We're being sold an "add-on" that is reality would require a totally new system. It seems most everybody is making at least some tacit admissions that UBI would require some other major reforms to effectively work; some forms of price control, maybe some forms of salary control to work, etc. So don't call it UBI and act like that concept exists in a vacuum. Don't sell me a Michelin Pilot Super Sport ZP 245/40-18 Tire without mentioning I need to buy the rest of the Corvette to make it work and keep insisting we're only talking about whether or not to buy the tire. If other systems have to be put in place to make this system work, it's one big system you're advocating for.

And if the system has the government setting prices and wages, that system has a name and I'm not a fan of it.
Your first good post in this thread, with novel insight!

Yes, of course all laws, rules and regulations, that exist on the presumption that targeted people would NOT have a steady, above poverty line income, would have to be scrurinized, many adapted, some abandoned.

I disagree with the suspicion that UBI would require increased government oversight and regulations, and believe the opposite is true. But we are far away yet from quantufying that: too many variables are unsolved, many not even on the exam sheet yet.
__________________
Thermodynamics hates conspiracy theorists. (Foster Zygote)
Oystein is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th April 2019, 05:49 AM   #250
Beelzebuddy
Philosopher
 
Beelzebuddy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 6,933
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Okay here's the problem.

We're being sold an "add-on" that is reality would require a totally new system. It seems most everybody is making at least some tacit admissions that UBI would require some other major reforms to effectively work; some forms of price control, maybe some forms of salary control to work, etc.
I think everyone is saying the opposite. We should end up with a market that's freer than before, because more participation will be voluntary. We may not even need things like a minimum wage anymore, although I'd want the system in place and working before seriously considering that.
Beelzebuddy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th April 2019, 05:51 AM   #251
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 9,041
...but we might need stronger protection against scammers and grifters.
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th April 2019, 05:54 AM   #252
Beelzebuddy
Philosopher
 
Beelzebuddy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 6,933
Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
...but we might need stronger protection against scammers and grifters.
We need that now. Have you ever read a payday loan contract? It'll make you want to disinfect your scrollwheel.
Beelzebuddy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th April 2019, 05:58 AM   #253
Dave Rogers
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles
 
Dave Rogers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD
Posts: 29,450
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Okay here's the problem.

We're being sold an "add-on" that is reality would require a totally new system. It seems most everybody is making at least some tacit admissions that UBI would require some other major reforms to effectively work; some forms of price control, maybe some forms of salary control to work, etc.
Quite the reverse, actually. There would no longer be any concept of a minimum wage, because everybody wouild already be getting it. Price controls aren't part of the system; it's expected that prices would rise, but that's actually a feature, not a bug.

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
And if the system has the government setting prices and wages, that system has a name and I'm not a fan of it.
But you seem to be insisting UBI should be named that even if it involves neither. The whole idea is to have less government involvement, not more.

Dave
__________________
Inspiring discussion of Sharknado is not a good sign for the audience expectations of your new high-concept SF movie sequel.

- Myriad
Dave Rogers is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th April 2019, 05:59 AM   #254
Thermal
Philosopher
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Currently Dismembered
Posts: 7,974
It is being assumed that the market will raise prices if consumers have more cash, but I'm not sure that old-school thinking is still the case. The Wal-Mart economic theory has been getting a powerhouse foothold in decades of late. Services might not necessarily increase their prices, but simply be working full time instead of part time, so no guaranteed increase.
__________________
"Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th April 2019, 06:00 AM   #255
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
 
psionl0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 14,784
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
It seems most everybody is making at least some tacit admissions that UBI would require some other major reforms to effectively work; some forms of price control, maybe some forms of salary control to work, etc.
That is some mighty selective reading you have done it this is your conclusion.

Most have pointed out that there would no longer be any need for a minimum wage since people would have a genuine choice to refuse a job that they considered unsuitable. I haven't seen any calls for price controls (with the exception of Manhattan rents).
__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975
psionl0 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th April 2019, 06:06 AM   #256
GnaGnaMan
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,707
Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Not necessarily. Suppose there's a crappy job that currently pays $1000 a month. Now introduce a $1000/month UBI. Some people will still be prepared to do crappy jobs for $1500/month, for example because they don't have the skills or training or motivation to do anything more well-paid. But since they're already getting $1000/month without doing the crappy job, the employer can pay $500 a month over and above UBI.

I would imagine one immediate consequence of UBI, just as inevitable as prices rising, would be that a lot of wages would fall, probably by roughly the amount of UBI. If you don't factor that in, you're not making a fair comparison.

Dave
That reasoning is doubtful.
In theory it's like this: Suppose someone pays someone $500 per month but makes $1000 off of their labor (ie net, once other expenses are paid). Then someone else could come along and say: "My good man, I shall pay you $750" and still make good money.
Eventually the wage should equal the marginal productivity. We know that the US is not the ideal market economy of theory but it can't be that far off.

I would expect what you describe to happen but only for jobs that people are passionate about. EG photography.
If people are willing to subsidize their wage with their UBI then it will fall.
__________________
It makes no difference whatever whether they laugh at us or revile us, whether they represent us as clowns or criminals; the main thing is that they mention us, that they concern themselves with us again and again. -Hitler
GnaGnaMan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th April 2019, 06:13 AM   #257
GnaGnaMan
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,707
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Okay here's the problem.

We're being sold an "add-on" that is reality would require a totally new system. It seems most everybody is making at least some tacit admissions that UBI would require some other major reforms to effectively work; some forms of price control, maybe some forms of salary control to work, etc. So don't call it UBI and act like that concept exists in a vacuum. Don't sell me a Michelin Pilot Super Sport ZP 245/40-18 Tire without mentioning I need to buy the rest of the Corvette to make it work and keep insisting we're only talking about whether or not to buy the tire. If other systems have to be put in place to make this system work, it's one big system you're advocating for.

And if the system has the government setting prices and wages, that system has a name and I'm not a fan of it.
How did you get that idea? Who's saying that?
__________________
It makes no difference whatever whether they laugh at us or revile us, whether they represent us as clowns or criminals; the main thing is that they mention us, that they concern themselves with us again and again. -Hitler
GnaGnaMan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th April 2019, 06:14 AM   #258
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 19,878
Originally Posted by GnaGnaMan View Post
How did you get that idea? Who's saying that?
A lot of people, read the thread, I'm not spoon feeding it to you to accommodate your stalling tactic.
__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset
- "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th April 2019, 06:14 AM   #259
Dave Rogers
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles
 
Dave Rogers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD
Posts: 29,450
Originally Posted by GnaGnaMan View Post
We know that the US is not the ideal market economy of theory but it can't be that far off.
Unless JoeMorgue is right and it's basically a network of effective monopolies.

Dave
__________________
Inspiring discussion of Sharknado is not a good sign for the audience expectations of your new high-concept SF movie sequel.

- Myriad
Dave Rogers is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th April 2019, 06:16 AM   #260
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 19,878
Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Unless JoeMorgue is right and it's basically a network of effective monopolies.
The entire economy? No.
Some industries? Absolutely.
Some industries that we could, quibbles and pedantics aside, call "essential?" Yes.
__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset
- "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th April 2019, 06:17 AM   #261
Thermal
Philosopher
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Currently Dismembered
Posts: 7,974
Originally Posted by GnaGnaMan View Post
That reasoning is doubtful.
In theory it's like this: Suppose someone pays someone $500 per month but makes $1000 off of their labor (ie net, once other expenses are paid). Then someone else could come along and say: "My good man, I shall pay you $750" and still make good money.
Eventually the wage should equal the marginal productivity. We know that the US is not the ideal market economy of theory but it can't be that far off.

I would expect what you describe to happen but only for jobs that people are passionate about. EG photography.
If people are willing to subsidize their wage with their UBI then it will fall.
Do, say, lawyers do that? 'My good man, I will represent you for 30% less than my associate across the way', and still make heavy coin?

Well-off brothers de facto price-fix. The low guy has little negotiating power, as he is more replaceable for the same jingle.
__________________
"Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th April 2019, 06:19 AM   #262
Dave Rogers
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles
 
Dave Rogers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD
Posts: 29,450
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
A lot of people, read the thread,
I've read the thread and I can't see anyone saying that UBI requires price controls and salary controls; I can only see people arguing more or less the opposite. Please point out to us what we're all missing and only you can see.

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I'm not spoon feeding it to you to accommodate your stalling tactic.
You've made a claim on a skeptics' forum, and now you're refusing to provide evidence for it even though it would be trivially simple. That doesn't look good.

Dave
__________________
Inspiring discussion of Sharknado is not a good sign for the audience expectations of your new high-concept SF movie sequel.

- Myriad
Dave Rogers is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th April 2019, 06:20 AM   #263
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 19,878
Again our options are:

1. The government tells business they can't charge more.
2. We just trust business to not be greedy.
__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset
- "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th April 2019, 06:20 AM   #264
GnaGnaMan
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,707
Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
I can.
I think UBI will make wages rise, since people have a much easier time saying "screw you guys, I'm going home".

Companies will have to work hard to create a sense of loyalty.
I doubt that. Suppose you got a job that pays 1000 per month in addition to your UBI of 1000. When you walk away from that job you lose half your income. Losing half one's income is not something the ordinary person can put up with. You'd have to slash half your expenses; move to a cheaper place and so on...
__________________
It makes no difference whatever whether they laugh at us or revile us, whether they represent us as clowns or criminals; the main thing is that they mention us, that they concern themselves with us again and again. -Hitler
GnaGnaMan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th April 2019, 06:22 AM   #265
GnaGnaMan
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,707
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
A lot of people, read the thread, I'm not spoon feeding it to you to accommodate your stalling tactic.
That's wrong.
__________________
It makes no difference whatever whether they laugh at us or revile us, whether they represent us as clowns or criminals; the main thing is that they mention us, that they concern themselves with us again and again. -Hitler
GnaGnaMan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th April 2019, 06:24 AM   #266
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 19,878
Originally Posted by GnaGnaMan View Post
I doubt that. Suppose you got a job that pays 1000 per month in addition to your UBI of 1000. When you walk away from that job you lose half your income. Losing half one's income is not something the ordinary person can put up with. You'd have to slash half your expenses; move to a cheaper place and so on...
Ironically I think that means UBI would be an easier transition from a period of high economic strength, a peak if you will. The populace would be used to a higher standard of living.

Right now we have an entire generation for whom living in your parents basement until you're 40 and working two minimum wage jobs to afford the interest on your student loan payment and have enough left over for Raman is the norm. You give those people a UBI and... that might be enough to make them happy, at lest for some time period.
__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset
- "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th April 2019, 06:24 AM   #267
ahhell
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 2,497
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Okay here's the problem.

We're being sold an "add-on" that is reality would require a totally new system. It seems most everybody is making at least some tacit admissions that UBI would require some other major reforms to effectively work; some forms of price control, maybe some forms of salary control to work, etc. So don't call it UBI and act like that concept exists in a vacuum.
Don't sell me a Michelin Pilot Super Sport ZP 245/40-18 Tire without mentioning I need to buy the rest of the Corvette to make it work and keep insisting we're only talking about whether or not to buy the tire. If other systems have to be put in place to make this system work, it's one big system you're advocating for.

And if the system has the government setting prices and wages, that system has a name and I'm not a fan of it.
Those that are saying that wage and price controls are necessary for a UBI are wrong. Price controls are a bad idea regardless of UBI, see the discussion of rent control. I'm not sure UBI is a great idea but I don't see any reason why we need to change anything in order to try it nor for it to be successful. All we need to do is find a way to pay for it.

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
...but we might need stronger protection against scammers and grifters.
Why? Sounds like paternalistic nonsense to me. Poor people aren't smart enough to handle money?
ahhell is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th April 2019, 06:25 AM   #268
Dave Rogers
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles
 
Dave Rogers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD
Posts: 29,450
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Again our options are:

1. The government tells business they can't charge more.
2. We just trust business to not be greedy.
3. Businesses charge more, but the system is already designed to accommodate that.
4. Businesses don't suddenly forget that they can attract custom by charging less than the store across the street.

Dave
__________________
Inspiring discussion of Sharknado is not a good sign for the audience expectations of your new high-concept SF movie sequel.

- Myriad
Dave Rogers is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th April 2019, 06:26 AM   #269
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 19,878
Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
3. Businesses charge more, but the system is already designed to accommodate that.
4. Businesses don't suddenly forget that they can attract custom by charging less than the store across the street.
You're argument for socialism can't be "The invisible hand of the market will magically fix the problems with it." That's a little counter-intuitive.
__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset
- "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th April 2019, 06:28 AM   #270
Thermal
Philosopher
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Currently Dismembered
Posts: 7,974
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Ironically I think that means UBI would be an easier transition from a period of high economic strength, a peak if you will. The populace would be used to a higher standard of living.

Right now we have an entire generation for whom living in your parents basement until you're 40 and working two minimum wage jobs to afford the interest on your student loan payment and have enough left over for Raman is the norm. You give those people a UBI and... that might be enough to make them happy, at lest for some time period.
Or they can buy better headphones and eat at trendier restaurants while still bitching that they cant find a good job or afford a house.

Then again, the President became quite the respectable man through handouts. Character building, that.
__________________
"Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th April 2019, 06:29 AM   #271
Dave Rogers
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles
 
Dave Rogers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD
Posts: 29,450
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
You're argument for socialism can't be "The invisible hand of the market will magically fix the problems with it." That's a little counter-intuitive.
Yes, it would be, if I were arguing for socialism.

Dave

ETA:

Originally Posted by Wikipedia
A poisoned-well "argument" can also be in this form:
1. Unfavorable definitions (be it true or false) which prevent disagreement (or enforce affirmative position)
2. Any claims without first agreeing with above definitions are automatically dismissed.
__________________
Inspiring discussion of Sharknado is not a good sign for the audience expectations of your new high-concept SF movie sequel.

- Myriad

Last edited by Dave Rogers; 10th April 2019 at 07:11 AM.
Dave Rogers is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th April 2019, 06:58 AM   #272
Oystein
Penultimate Amazing
 
Oystein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 16,649
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Again our options are:

1. The government tells business they can't charge more.
2. We just trust business to not be greedy.
No.
__________________
Thermodynamics hates conspiracy theorists. (Foster Zygote)
Oystein is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th April 2019, 07:20 AM   #273
BobTheCoward
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 17,438
There is a huge range between 2% inflation and run away inflation. If I had to bet, I would bet it settled somewhere in between.

And considering the fed pulled the 2% target out of it's butt without deliberation or research, I wouldn't be committed to that number.

Last edited by BobTheCoward; 10th April 2019 at 07:22 AM.
BobTheCoward is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th April 2019, 07:32 AM   #274
angrysoba
Philosophile
 
angrysoba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 25,461
Originally Posted by GnaGnaMan View Post
How did you get that idea? Who's saying that?
As far as I can see JoeMorgue is saying it. He insisted UBI needs price controls and if not it can’t work. And if that happens it is socialism. You have to agree to his strawman!
__________________
"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before."

"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
angrysoba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th April 2019, 07:34 AM   #275
angrysoba
Philosophile
 
angrysoba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 25,461
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
You're argument for socialism can't be "The invisible hand of the market will magically fix the problems with it." That's a little counter-intuitive.
Stop it! You keep misrepresenting what people are saying and going off on breathless rants about the Soshalizm and the rent controls when you are the only one who has come close to advocating these things!
__________________
"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before."

"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
angrysoba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th April 2019, 07:40 AM   #276
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 19,878
Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Stop it! You keep misrepresenting what people are saying and going off on breathless rants about the Soshalizm and the rent controls when you are the only one who has come close to advocating these things!
You know I'm convinced that the Right turning socialism into a boogeyman they screamed at every noise in the night is the best thing to actually ever happen to proponents of it since now every time you criticize socialism at all it's "OH SO UR JUST ONE OF THOSE EVERY THIGN IS SOCIALISM PEOPLE!"

No not everything is socialism. Socialism is still socialism though. And when the government is both writing paychecks and providing the services, I don't what else to call it.
__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset
- "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th April 2019, 07:59 AM   #277
Beelzebuddy
Philosopher
 
Beelzebuddy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 6,933
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
You know I'm convinced that the Right turning socialism into a boogeyman they screamed at every noise in the night is the best thing to actually ever happen to proponents of it since now every time you criticize socialism at all it's "OH SO UR JUST ONE OF THOSE EVERY THIGN IS SOCIALISM PEOPLE!"

No not everything is socialism. Socialism is still socialism though. And when the government is both writing paychecks and providing the services, I don't what else to call it.
You know, if you'd just read peoples' posts instead of knocking down ALL CAPS STRAWMANS, you might be less frustrated at them. Also less wrong, but that'll come later.
Beelzebuddy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th April 2019, 08:00 AM   #278
ahhell
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 2,497
There is something that occurs to me. Business would not immediately raise all their prices on account of UBI they way it occurs in the rents around a military base example.

In the military base/rent example the market is small and inelastic. I never ran into that nor heard of anything like in my military experience, likely because I was based in large metropolitan areas with dynamic economies that were not entirely focused on the base. I also tended to rent away from the base to avoid contact with my fellow sailors.

Any rate, with a UBI there isn't some captured market. A grocery can't just raise prices so that the aver cost of food for the month increases by $1000. Demand for food will not increase because folks have more money, demand for some kind of food might and the grocers will have to wait and see which those are. There are still other grocers they have to consider too, and folks may decide they want to buy new close instead of more expensive food or spend the money on a better apartment in a nicer area or maybe quit there job and find a new one. Labor may get cheaper because as noted before, folks don't need as much money to work or it might get more expensive because folks would rather not work at grocers if they don't have to.

Joe's objection to UBI should also be applied to every other social welfare program. SS gives more money to a lot of people so we must need price controls to make sure Denny's doesn't raise the price of the early bird special. Foodstamps, therefore price controls are needed on food.......

Last edited by ahhell; 10th April 2019 at 08:05 AM.
ahhell is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th April 2019, 08:06 AM   #279
Dave Rogers
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles
 
Dave Rogers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD
Posts: 29,450
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
And when the government is both writing paychecks and providing the services, I don't what else to call it.
Given that with UBI the government is doing neither, maybe you could try a bit harder.

Dave
__________________
Inspiring discussion of Sharknado is not a good sign for the audience expectations of your new high-concept SF movie sequel.

- Myriad
Dave Rogers is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th April 2019, 08:09 AM   #280
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 37,140
Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Given that with UBI the government is doing neither, maybe you could try a bit harder.
UBI is literally "writing the paychecks".
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:54 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.