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Old 10th April 2019, 08:13 AM   #281
Dave Rogers
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
UBI is literally "writing the paychecks".
No, it isn't. The government exercises no control over who gets what from their employment. In fact, it would need no such control, as there would be no need in the long run for any concept of a minimum fair wage.

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Old 10th April 2019, 08:28 AM   #282
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
No, it isn't. The government exercises no control over who gets what from their employment. In fact, it would need no such control, as there would be no need in the long run for any concept of a minimum fair wage.
Oh for Pete's sake... here. To make you happy.

*Takes the hair, splits into two for you. Acknowledges the technical linguistic distinction between 'paycheck' and money provided from the government. Hands the two split hairs back to you.*

There I have now fully and of my own free will acknowledged the split hair.

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Old 10th April 2019, 08:32 AM   #283
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Oh for Pete's sake... here. To make you happy.

*Takes the hair, splits into two for you. Acknowledges the technical linguistic distinction between 'paycheck' and money provided from the government. Hands the two split hairs back to you.*

There I have now fully and of my own free will acknowledged the split hair.

"It's only Socialism if it comes from a specific region of France. Otherwise you have to call it Sparkling Communism."
You seem to be objecting to government control over wages, in a system where the government exercises less control over wages than it does at the moment. The fact that you choose to call that socialism is not indicative that it is in any way socialist; in fact, it's quite popular with Libertarians, who I suspect you would have to strain a little bit hard to group under your oversized umbrella definition of socialism.

Dave

ETA:

Originally Posted by wikipedia
A poisoned-well "argument" can also be in this form:
1. Unfavorable definitions (be it true or false) which prevent disagreement (or enforce affirmative position)
2. Any claims without first agreeing with above definitions are automatically dismissed.
You're presenting a textbook case here.
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Old 10th April 2019, 08:55 AM   #284
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From my very limited understanding of economics, the point of UBI is neither to "solve" the issue of poverty nor to incentivize people to use the extra money in "smart" economic decisions (it is stated that the government doesn't care what you do with the money)

From what I understood from Andrew Yang's, the mere fact that you're using the money is already the point, since by paying for stuff (whether it's an investment or just buying useless products at the mall), you're stimulating the economy. Even if you're making "bad decisions" with the way you're using the money, by simply using the money, you're giving work to other people. Also, the money would clearly help people who could really use the extra help to pay their basic bills. That includes poor people all the way to people like me, who are not poor, but who right now having only part time jobs, could use the help.

The way I understand it, the only argument against UBI would be if there were reasons to believe that most people wouldn't be using the money, and just putting it in their savings. But I doubt most people would do that. I think most people would either use the money "smartly" or compulsively. And again, that's part of the point: To stimulate the economy.
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Old 10th April 2019, 09:19 AM   #285
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Right.

Yang's dividend is just a mechanism to keep money in circulation in a manner that can't easily be undone by pro-rich tax policies.

And economic cycles would become more stable if people increased savings.
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Old 10th April 2019, 09:22 AM   #286
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Right.

Yang's dividend is just a mechanism to keep money in circulation in a manner that can't easily be undone by pro-rich tax policies.

And economic cycles would become more stable if people increased savings.
The money is already in circulation. It's not like the rich are sticking it under their mattresses.
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Old 10th April 2019, 09:25 AM   #287
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The money is already in circulation. It's not like the rich are sticking it under their mattresses.
true, but if you want some, you have to pay interst on it.
So in effect, it does stay under the mattress, and becomes more and more.

For the economy, it is much better to give 100 million people $10 than one person $1 billion.
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Old 10th April 2019, 11:28 AM   #288
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The money is already in circulation. It's not like the rich are sticking it under their mattresses.
Money is continually created and destroyed. Making sure that the right amount of money is in cirulation is what the central bank does.

That's why CBs have done quantitative easing in recent decades: A desperate attempt to get more money flowing.
It would have advantages giving it directly to people.
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Old 10th April 2019, 11:45 AM   #289
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
The same way as rises in prices. Seriously, can you imagine a company not taking UBI as an opportunity to cut its wage bill in any way it could get away with?

Dave
I suppose it's possible, but it's hard to imagine this as a selling point for UBI.
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Old 10th April 2019, 11:48 AM   #290
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
The same way as rises in prices. Seriously, can you imagine a company not taking UBI as an opportunity to cut its wage bill in any way it could get away with?

Dave
What ways could they get away with that they aren't already doing?
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Old 10th April 2019, 12:01 PM   #291
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Originally Posted by GnaGnaMan View Post
The USA is the only industrialized country without a VAT. Can you explain why it would experience runaway inflation when none of the others did?
Read again. I was pointing out that the UBI without the VAT would lead to runaway inflation. VATs are only mildly inflationary on their own.

Quote:
I understood you to say that some people work for less than the market wage now because they fear some negative consequence. IE they are being forced.

If that's not what you are saying then please explain.
I do not think that many people work for less than the market wage. Some may, because of lack of negotiating skills or because they took the job in a bad economy and have not realized that wage growth has picked up.

Quote:
Wait... what? Just a bit higher up you asserted nothing would change except for people quitting their jobs. Please clarify that.
Could you point out to me where I said that nothing would change except for people quitting their jobs?

Quote:
The usual way. Competition. "The invisible hand".
As I said to Dave, this is a curious argument for those in favor of UBI to be making.
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Old 10th April 2019, 01:32 PM   #292
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
I suppose it's possible, but it's hard to imagine this as a selling point for UBI.
People on a minimum wage get a 50% pay rise while the company pays them 50% less? Seems like quite an attractive deal for me, on the face of it. Of course it's not that simple; but often voters are.

Dave
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Old 10th April 2019, 01:58 PM   #293
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Read again. I was pointing out that the UBI without the VAT would lead to runaway inflation. VATs are only mildly inflationary on their own.
Sorry, my bad.
Why would a UBI without a VAT lead to runaway inflation?

Quote:
Could you point out to me where I said that nothing would change except for people quitting their jobs?
Increased demand and stable supply means that prices will increase.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...&postcount=202

Quote:
As I said to Dave, this is a curious argument for those in favor of UBI to be making.
1)I never said I am in favor of a UBI.
2)Why?
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Old 10th April 2019, 02:02 PM   #294
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
As I said to Dave, this is a curious argument for those in favor of UBI to be making.
Why? UBI depends on a market economy. Sure, it acts a buffer at the lower end, but almost all modern market economies have some sort of safety net. UBI is just a simplified version that reduces overhead and stigma.
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Old 10th April 2019, 02:22 PM   #295
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Originally Posted by GnaGnaMan View Post
Sorry, my bad.
Why would a UBI without a VAT lead to runaway inflation?
Because it would mean that the government is just printing money, and not collecting the same amount elsewhere (unless there is some other tax proposed). See the Vietnam War spending and the inflation we experienced in the 1970s for an example of the government just printing money and the resultant inflation.

Quote:
Increased demand and stable supply means that prices will increase.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...&postcount=202
Hmmm, you seem to have picked the wrong post for that quote, because I did not say those words in that particular post. I did say that in another post, but there I was referring to increased demand for and stable supply of goods. Rather than go round and round about this, let me just stipulate that I believe there would be many, many effects of a UBI, not just reduced employment.

Quote:
1)I never said I am in favor of a UBI.
2)Why?
1. Okay.
2. Do you think that "We'll give you $12,000 a year but your employer will probably reduce your pay at the same time," is a good selling point for UBI?
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Old 10th April 2019, 02:47 PM   #296
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Because it would mean that the government is just printing money, and not collecting the same amount elsewhere (unless there is some other tax proposed). See the Vietnam War spending and the inflation we experienced in the 1970s for an example of the government just printing money and the resultant inflation.
I see. If the government increases the money supply excessively, then that will cause runaway inflation.
If the government does that to finance, eg, a war then that war can be said to have caused runaway inflation.
Similarly, if the government does so to build roads then roads can be said to cause runaway inflation.
I agree that, in that sense, a UBI may cause runaway inflation.

I feel it is a very odd argument to make but I concede that it is correct.

Quote:
Hmmm, you seem to have picked the wrong post for that quote, because I did not say those words in that particular post. I did say that in another post, but there I was referring to increased demand for and stable supply of goods. Rather than go round and round about this, let me just stipulate that I believe there would be many, many effects of a UBI, not just reduced employment.
It's the right post when I click the link.

Quote:
2. Do you think that "We'll give you $12,000 a year but your employer will probably reduce your pay at the same time," is a good selling point for UBI?
No, probably not.
I see, what you mean. I just don't think it is curious for someone to honest. Just because someone is in favor of something doesn't mean they will lie for it.
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Old 10th April 2019, 03:19 PM   #297
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Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins View Post
From my very limited understanding of economics, the point of UBI is neither to "solve" the issue of poverty nor to incentivize people to use the extra money in "smart" economic decisions (it is stated that the government doesn't care what you do with the money)

From what I understood from Andrew Yang's, the mere fact that you're using the money is already the point, since by paying for stuff (whether it's an investment or just buying useless products at the mall), you're stimulating the economy. Even if you're making "bad decisions" with the way you're using the money, by simply using the money, you're giving work to other people. Also, the money would clearly help people who could really use the extra help to pay their basic bills. That includes poor people all the way to people like me, who are not poor, but who right now having only part time jobs, could use the help.

The way I understand it, the only argument against UBI would be if there were reasons to believe that most people wouldn't be using the money, and just putting it in their savings. But I doubt most people would do that. I think most people would either use the money "smartly" or compulsively. And again, that's part of the point: To stimulate the economy.
I really hate it when government tries to stimulate the economy, with the possible exception of when the economy is truly messed up, like in 2009.


UBI would take money from one set of people and give it to another set of people. How does that stimulate the economy? Do the people who are earning lots of it not spend it? Those boats look mighty expensive to me. I'm pretty sure they had to stimulate the economy a bunch to get those babies built.

Of course, people who have lots of money do tend to invest it......which stimulates the economy by funding business, or construction, or whatever.


All of these macroeconomic effects of what people would do with more money in their pocket neglect the fact that a whole bunch of people will have less money in their pocket.

Meanwhile, a bunch of people who are working now, and building stuff, would stop working.
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Old 10th April 2019, 04:53 PM   #298
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Originally Posted by GnaGnaMan View Post
I see. If the government increases the money supply excessively, then that will cause runaway inflation.
If the government does that to finance, eg, a war then that war can be said to have caused runaway inflation.
Similarly, if the government does so to build roads then roads can be said to cause runaway inflation.
I agree that, in that sense, a UBI may cause runaway inflation.
Wars are certainly inflationary, unless they are paid for out of current taxation (which governments are hesitant to do, since it may undermine support for the war effort). Roads, not so much, assuming they are not paving them with gold. As for UBI, a lot depends on the scale. If we go with $1000 a month for everybody over 18, which is what Andrew Yang is proposing, then the total pricetag is approximately $3 trillion. The current US government spending is approximately 4.8 trillion. That's a massive increase.

Quote:
It's the right post when I click the link.
Sorry, you are correct, I skimmed the bullet points I made and didn't see it. Still, I was talking about prices for goods increasing in that bullet point.

Quote:
No, probably not.
I see, what you mean. I just don't think it is curious for someone to honest. Just because someone is in favor of something doesn't mean they will lie for it.
Aside from denying it will be inflationary, I suppose.
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Old 10th April 2019, 08:30 PM   #299
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
I was pointing out that the UBI without the VAT would lead to runaway inflation.
The original idea as proposed by Milton Friedman was a "Negative Income Tax". The UBI would be financed by having everybody pay the same marginal rate of income tax (say 30% - 50%) on every dollar earned. If the same rate applied to all businesses/companies/trusts etc then the opportunities for tax avoidance would be minimized.

A VAT would be a reasonable alternative but I still prefer the NIT.
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Old 10th April 2019, 09:31 PM   #300
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How would the amount of UBI paid be determined? Living in San Francisco costs many times more than living in the central areas of California only an hour away.

I see $1000 a month mentioned a lot here. That is not a livable amount of money anywhere in the country. I pay $1600/month rent and maybe 500 in bills including electric, garbage, water cell phone and car insurance. That's $2100 minimum right there.

Will the gov assume people will rent rooms so they can pay less? $1000 a room in San Jose, much more in SF. Where I live about $700.

Should the government have a say in where you live in order to save money? What if I want to live in Beverly Hills just because?

What type of food will the gov "use" to calculate the amount paid for that? Beans and rice? Going out to eat? Food banks? Shouldn't the gov be able to guarantee a healthy diet for all? Three hundred a month bare minimum.

Car repairs, dentist, gasoline (over $3.50/gallon here right now).

What are the chances that the gov allotted amount will not be enough? It's an almost certainty.

You want to give our government that much control? Not me.

Aside from all that, no way am I okay with healthy able-bodied people getting paid to sit on their asses and I'll bet there are way more than a few others out there who feel this way.

Idea!
Maybe the UBI folks should be forced to mow lawns, do dishes and clean toilets for their neighbors so they can earn it! I'm being forced to pay them, why is it wrong to make them work? That would make me feel better about giving them free money. California is a dirty state. Pick up trash! Man the border!
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Old 10th April 2019, 09:45 PM   #301
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
How would the amount of UBI paid be determined? Living in San Francisco costs many times more than living in the central areas of California only an hour away.
Who cares? If the UBI isn't enough to satisfy your wants then get a job to supplement that income.

The important thing is that you have the option to knock back a job that is unsuitable without starving for that principle.

Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Idea!
Maybe the UBI folks should be forced to mow lawns, do dishes and clean toilets for their neighbors so they can earn it! I'm being forced to pay them, why is it wrong to make them work? That would make me feel better about giving them free money. California is a dirty state. Pick up trash! Man the border!
And that is the crux of the matter. You would rather kick those who are less fortunate than yourself than give them a handout - even if by doing so, you would be better off.
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Old 10th April 2019, 09:46 PM   #302
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
How would the amount of UBI paid be determined? Living in San Francisco costs many times more than living in the central areas of California only an hour away.
Obviously, the amount of UBI will be determined by a complex set of calculations which take into account many factors. The $1k figure is being used as a representative example, not as a specific proposal.
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Old 10th April 2019, 09:59 PM   #303
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The level of UBI is a question of desired political outcome.
But I consider it essential that it is universal all over the country.
States or even cities might decide to add bonuses or provide subsidies, but one major policy goal of UBI is to reduce the need to move because of work and incentivise moving because of living standards.
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Old 10th April 2019, 10:48 PM   #304
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Obviously, the amount of UBI will be determined by a complex set of calculations which take into account many factors. The $1k figure is being used as a representative example, not as a specific proposal.
I don't think it's obvious that UBI should be based on the cost of living in the place where a person lives. I think it makes sense to keep it as simple as possible, which means that for some people UBI still won't make living in San Fransisco a reasonable option. I don't really see a problem with that.
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Old 10th April 2019, 10:54 PM   #305
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
I don't think it's obvious that UBI should be based on the cost of living in the place where a person lives. I think it makes sense to keep it as simple as possible, which means that for some people UBI still won't make living in San Fransisco a reasonable option. I don't really see a problem with that.
Right, and I never said that it will vary according to location. Just that many factors will determine how much it is.
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Old 11th April 2019, 01:44 AM   #306
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Aside from denying it will be inflationary, I suppose.
I did concede that a UBI is inflationary in the same way as roads.
You don't need to worry about that, though, since the US government is not financed through printing money.
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Old 11th April 2019, 02:07 AM   #307
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
As for UBI, a lot depends on the scale. If we go with $1000 a month for everybody over 18, which is what Andrew Yang is proposing, then the total pricetag is approximately $3 trillion. The current US government spending is approximately 4.8 trillion. That's a massive increase.
Have you accounted for the withdrawal of many forms of welfare payments? Have you accounted for the massive reduction in bureaucracies needed to administer this system?

Is there any reason why you think that think that the government should print money to finance a UBI instead of making changes to the taxation system?
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Old 11th April 2019, 02:57 AM   #308
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I really hate it when government tries to stimulate the economy, with the possible exception of when the economy is truly messed up, like in 2009.
A UBI would provide an automatic stabilization mechanism, like joblessness benefits now.
A recession hits. People lose their jobs. Tax revenue goes down. The government goes automatically into deficit.
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Old 11th April 2019, 03:58 AM   #309
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
I too am interested by the idea, but . . .

If we try it and it fails, will we be able to go back?



I think that really depends on the person. I recently watched the documentary Seattle is Dying (it's on youtube) and it left me pretty pessimistic about a certain segment of the populace.
When housed, people are a lot more likely to kick drug habits on their own eventually. The torturous living conditions fuel the addiction, in part. Meth isn't even addictive in the "doing through withdrawal upon cessation of use" sort of way, from what I understand. With heroin, it's different. When they get arrested, they should be kept in jail for a week and medically monitored through detox, get a counseling session, and then given a housing voucher for a furnished room in a rooming house, or something like that.
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Old 11th April 2019, 04:07 AM   #310
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I don't see how it wouldn't be inflationary, either. The math seems off to me. Can someone who understand it and endorses it explain how it would not be inflationary? Is it because demand is still so low?
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Old 11th April 2019, 04:31 AM   #311
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
I don't see how it wouldn't be inflationary, either. The math seems off to me. Can someone who understand it and endorses it explain how it would not be inflationary? Is it because demand is still so low?

Ask Andrew Yang:

Originally Posted by yang2020
Wouldn’t that cause rampant inflation?

The federal government recently printed $4 trillion for the bank bailouts in its quantitative easing program with no inflation. Our plan for a Universal Basic Income uses mostly money already in the economy. In monetary economics, leading theory states that inflation is based on changes in the supply of money. Our UBI plan has minimal changes in the supply of money because it is funded by a Value-added Tax.

It is likely that some companies will increase their prices in response to people having more buying power, and a VAT would also increase prices marginally. However, there will still be competition between firms that will keep prices in check. Over time, technology will continue to decrease the prices of most goods where it is allowed to do so (e.g., clothing, media, consumer electronics, etc.). The main inflation we currently experience is in sectors where automation has not been applied due to government regulation or inapplicability – primarily housing, education, and healthcare. The real issue isn’t Universal Basic Income, it’s whether technology and automation will be allowed to reduce prices in different sectors.
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Old 11th April 2019, 04:43 AM   #312
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Have you accounted for the withdrawal of many forms of welfare payments? Have you accounted for the massive reduction in bureaucracies needed to administer this system?

Is there any reason why you think that think that the government should print money to finance a UBI instead of making changes to the taxation system?
From the first hit that I got from googling "US Welfare Spending":
Quote:
What is the spending on Welfare? In FY 2019 total US government spending on welfare — federal, state, and local — is “guesstimated” to be $1,132 billion, including $650 billion for Medicaid, and $482 billion in other welfare.
I'm assuming that Mr. Yang isn't proposing cuts in Medicaid, unless of course it is to be replaced by Universal Basic Medical Care. It seems to me that someone is going to have to pony up the money to make up the difference between the 482 billion versus the future 3 trillion.


I suspect that the 482 billion figure above doesn't include Social Security, whose average payment is 1400 dollars a month now. Does Yang intend his 1000 dollar per month replace the 1400 dollars they are getting now, or..well, somebody can explain it.

(Note: That 482 billion is not the amount of money paid out. It's the budget for the various programs. In other words it includes the massive bureaucracy payments.)



I came of age at the beginning of the Reagan era, during the age of voodoo economics. Sadly, the concept of magic money creation has so permeated our culture that now we have been reduced to arguing over which flavor of voodoo is more effective.


The non-voodoo form is that if the government gives away money, including "giving it away" by paying people to do things or purchase stuff, that money has to be taken from somebody else, and no magic money creation scheme can change that.
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Old 11th April 2019, 05:06 AM   #313
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I'm assuming that Mr. Yang

Why don't you ask him?

Originally Posted by yang2020
How would we pay for Universal Basic Income?

[...] The means to pay for a Universal Basic Income will come from 4 sources:

1. Current spending. We currently spend between $500 and $600 billion a year on welfare programs, food stamps, disability and the like. This reduces the cost of Universal Basic Income because people already receiving benefits would have a choice but would be ineligible to receive the full $1,000 in addition to current benefits.

2. A VAT. Our economy is now incredibly vast at $19 trillion, up $4 trillion in the last 10 years alone. A VAT at half the European level would generate $800 billion in new revenue. A VAT will become more and more important as technology improves because you cannot collect income tax from robots or software.

3. New revenue. Putting money into the hands of American consumers would grow the economy. The Roosevelt Institute projected that the economy would grow by approximately $2.5 trillion and create 4.6 million new jobs. This would generate approximately $500 – 600 billion in new revenue from economic growth and activity.

4. We currently spend over one trillion dollars on health care, incarceration, homelessness services and the like. We would save $100 – 200 billion as people would take better care of themselves and avoid the emergency room, jail, and the street and would generally be more functional. Universal Basic Income would pay for itself by helping people avoid our institutions, which is when our costs shoot up. Some studies have shown that $1 to a poor parent will result in as much as $7 in cost-savings and economic growth.
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Old 11th April 2019, 05:12 AM   #314
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Quote:
The federal government recently printed $4 trillion for the bank bailouts in its quantitative easing program with no inflation.
The QE money basically never touched "the real economy", but rather spilled out almost directly into currency speculation markets and things like that.

Bummer. I was hoping he'd have a better argument.

Quote:
it is funded by a Value-added Tax.
I'm skeptical of the notion of getting trillions a year out of a VAT. That sounds completely mathematically implausible. I'd need to see his math.
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Old 11th April 2019, 05:21 AM   #315
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
The QE money basically never touched "the real economy", but rather spilled out almost directly into currency speculation markets and things like that.

Bummer. I was hoping he'd have a better argument.

Pity you missed the rest of the paragraph.
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Old 11th April 2019, 07:06 AM   #316
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
How would the amount of UBI paid be determined? Living in San Francisco costs many times more than living in the central areas of California only an hour away.

I see $1000 a month mentioned a lot here. That is not a livable amount of money anywhere in the country. I pay $1600/month rent and maybe 500 in bills including electric, garbage, water cell phone and car insurance. That's $2100 minimum right there.

Will the gov assume people will rent rooms so they can pay less? $1000 a room in San Jose, much more in SF. Where I live about $700.

Should the government have a say in where you live in order to save money? What if I want to live in Beverly Hills just because?
The answer to the last question there is no, one of the selling points of UBI is that it would less paternalistic than traditional welfare programs. That then answers the rest of the questions. $#### dollars everywhere to everyone, then they can decide. Do I want a crappy one room in SF or a spacious manse in the central valley? Do I want to just sit live on this bear minimum or get a job for a larger apartment etc. And it is absolutely a livable amount of money in a lot of places. I lived on less than that while paying my way through college not that long ago. It sucks but it can be done and those folks will also have plenty of time to find extra income.
Quote:
What type of food will the gov "use" to calculate the amount paid for that? Beans and rice? Going out to eat? Food banks? Shouldn't the gov be able to guarantee a healthy diet for all? Three hundred a month bare minimum.

Car repairs, dentist, gasoline (over $3.50/gallon here right now).

What are the chances that the gov allotted amount will not be enough? It's an almost certainty.

You want to give our government that much control? Not me.

Aside from all that, no way am I okay with healthy able-bodied people getting paid to sit on their asses and I'll bet there are way more than a few others out there who feel this way.

Idea!
Maybe the UBI folks should be forced to mow lawns, do dishes and clean toilets for their neighbors so they can earn it! I'm being forced to pay them, why is it wrong to make them work? That would make me feel better about giving them free money. California is a dirty state. Pick up trash! Man the border!
Another selling point for the UBI is we may not have much choice soon, it may not matter how healthy bodied you are, there just may not be any jobs for you because robots are doing them. You'll be paying those healthy bodied folks to do something or they will make life ******** for the rest of us, why not let them decide what to do with their time? That's a lot better than some central planner doing it. Not to mention the vast new bureacracies that would be need to administer the works program you seem to prefer.


@Childempress, thanks for the thinks and information.
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Old 11th April 2019, 07:44 AM   #317
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Have you accounted for the withdrawal of many forms of welfare payments? Have you accounted for the massive reduction in bureaucracies needed to administer this system?
I won't account for any of those things until Yang does. When his plan spells out exactly which welfare programs he would cancel, and exactly which bureaucracies he'd massively reduce, then we can talk.
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Old 11th April 2019, 01:02 PM   #318
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
The answer to the last question there is no, one of the selling points of UBI is that it would less paternalistic than traditional welfare programs. That then answers the rest of the questions. $#### dollars everywhere to everyone, then they can decide. Do I want a crappy one room in SF or a spacious manse in the central valley? Do I want to just sit live on this bear minimum or get a job for a larger apartment etc. And it is absolutely a livable amount of money in a lot of places. I lived on less than that while paying my way through college not that long ago. It sucks but it can be done and those folks will also have plenty of time to find extra income.
It would be a flat rate to all Americans (thus avoiding all that means testing garbage that conservatives use to slash programs that help people), so you would probably see a significant outflow from places with high costs of living to places with low costs of living. Heck, companies will probably sprout up like mushrooms in relatively inexpensive rural areas that would provide cheap housing options. If they can build a dormitory style setup with private rooms, communal living areas, three square meals a day, a small library, etc. (think private prison that you can walk away from at will) for say $800 a month, while the monthly stipend is $1000, you have a significant business potential.
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Old 11th April 2019, 01:37 PM   #319
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Pity you missed the rest of the paragraph.
It's just not good when you start your explanation with a sentence indicating a lack of understanding of the topic of macroeconomics, increases in the money supply, and inflation. I'm a MMT person, and we'd love to do a UBI, but we have a whole team of economists and economics professors who've looked at it, and nobody can figure out how to do a one that size without triggering inflation, and a VAT won't help enough to even mention.

Do you know who his economic adviser is?
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Old 11th April 2019, 02:20 PM   #320
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Do you know who his economic adviser is?

No, but I would guess he is his own economic adviser.
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