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Old 11th April 2019, 08:50 AM   #201
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Originally Posted by pharphis View Post


I feel like MRA keeps being used when it shouldn't. Manosphere subsets? Sure.
The boundary between pro-men MRA's and anti-feminism subsets is extremely porous. I would consider much of the redpill and MGTOW movement as anti-feminist and openly misogynistic, but many of these types would self-identify as both or some combination of MGTOW and MRA.

Generally speaking, I support pro-men reform movements. My problem with the MRA movement is the co-mingling with these less desirable elements. To my eye, a poor job of demarcation is a red flag.

There is no reason for a pro-men's group to be antifeminist, but antifeminism is alive and well in these circles.
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Old 11th April 2019, 09:00 AM   #202
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
If you believe that equality has to be justified and inequality doesn't then you simply don't believe in equality.
You know that what you wrote isn't what I was saying.

You've clearly bought into the idea that "equality" means parity. It doesn't. My wife makes half of my earnings. Is that a 'problem', or a result of our choices? Why doesn't that apply to the larger population? Do you think it's reasonable to conclude that women and men might possibly make different choices, and that these choices might have nothing to do with anything one would identify as problematic?

My issue with your line of thinking is that, assuming for the sake of argument that, even absent social pressures, discrimination and the like are removed from the equation, there'd still be imbalances in a number of fields, you'd still conclude that there's a problem even though we've just stipulated that there aren't any.

ETA: In other words, you need to eliminate this possibility in order to be able to claim that you know that there's a problem behind the disparity, and you haven't done that.
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Old 11th April 2019, 09:04 AM   #203
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
I think it is. Not to go too much into a tangent, one place I agree with some MRAs is in noticing that young boys aren't statistically doing great in our early educational system.

One facet of this is that behavioral expectations tend to be easier for girls between 5-18 or so to fit into than boys in the same age group.

The cause of the divergence in behavior may be whatever mix of biology and expectations but the result is there. I do think the divergence makes itself more felt in students with fewer resources. Students who don't have great examples of good school habits or support at home. And that correlates often to lower income students and to students of color who get a double whammy because their teachers are more likely than the population percentages to be white even in schools with predominantly people of color. Which means young black boys are especially less likely to have a student who gets them and builds a classroom where their most effective ways of learning and working and communicating are rewarded. That's part of how we end up with an epidemic of "oppositional defiant disorder". In my opinion.

While it isn't impossible for a particular female teacher to understand boys well and create a system in which they thrive, across a whole system we see that a school ecosystem of mostly women creates broadly a lot of environments where boys fail to thrive.

So we get young boys turned off to education at an early age.

Now you may say "We've always had mostly female teachers, why is this a problem now?". I would guess that so much of the rest of culture slanted in favor of boys success that it's been masking these issues until attempts to level those playing fields revealed the issue. Until relatively recently, boys had a massive advantage in role models, educational toys and activities pitched to them and not to girls, a job market that actively or culturally excluded women and, importantly in the US, a manufacturing industry providing stable employment for men who weren't great at formal education.

All of these things shifting reveals an underlying issue.

That's just one way in which the lack of male teachers (as well as the lack of teachers of color) is a problem. There are related issues of the importance of role models, social ideas of men as caregivers and a whole bunch of other things as well.
As a curiosity, do you think we would be better off segregating boys and girls in school so they could be taught by people of their sex? Or do you think just having a healthy mix is fine?
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Old 11th April 2019, 09:06 AM   #204
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
We're not in those times where women were considered second-class citizens. Bringing up those times is just a distraction. I'm talking about now, not then.
That's a bit like saying that black Americans should stop whining about the fact that their families could not accumulate wealth over the last 200 years in the same way white families could.

It is not that distant in the past, and the effects are still with us.

My mother was just lamenting about how she had to get my dad to sign off on her first business loan as well as her choice to have tubal ligation after I was born. Both of those were just a few decades ago. When they went to sell their house the mortgage company would not talk to her on the phone without my dad giving them permission to talk to her. That was just five years ago.

It is nice that my wife doesn't have to put with some of the ******** that my mom put up with, but that doesn't mean that ******** didn't effect my life in numerous negative ways.
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Old 11th April 2019, 09:06 AM   #205
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
I don't want to get too hung up on that particular term.

While I do have some issues with the way those groups in the manosphere use the term and what they believe it implies, it was just one among many examples I could give of shared concepts, language and ideology among these groups.

My argument here is that MRAs, Incels, MGTOW, Redpillers and PUAs share some baseline language and worldviews.
Sure, that's fair.

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
The boundary between pro-men MRA's and anti-feminism subsets is extremely porous. I would consider much of the redpill and MGTOW movement as anti-feminist and openly misogynistic, but many of these types would self-identify as both or some combination of MGTOW and MRA.

Generally speaking, I support pro-men reform movements. My problem with the MRA movement is the co-mingling with these less desirable elements. To my eye, a poor job of demarcation is a red flag.

There is no reason for a pro-men's group to be antifeminist, but antifeminism is alive and well in these circles.
I agree with everything except the last line. Like it or not, Feminism and feminists actively oppose men's rights and acknowledging or addressing male issues. No, not just the radicals but the mainstream feminists who have lobbying and political power and mainstream acceptance.

Look at WhiteRibbon.org for example number 1. (domestic violence being framed as exclusively "gender based violence" ie male perpetrators against female)

Look at NOW and Warren Farrel's departure from them. He's summarized his experience many times (he was former president of I believe the NY group) but the gist is this: When he realized fatherlessness among children was a major issue, NOW and associated feminists told him that their focus was on women's interests (not children's) in divorce, and his speaking engagements and influence dried up.

Look at the heart of patriarchy theory and how it is used both to demonize men and to dismiss their issues as "will be solved when women's issues are solved".

I believe the OP opened up with more examples.

Now, I don't think you HAVE to be an anti-feminist to be an MRA, I just think it's very difficult to be one without eventually realizing the problem is often (but not exclusively) feminist activism. It seems half of feminists believe that feminism tackles all gender equality issues, and therefore the MRM is not needed (or should frame their discussions solely within feminist frameworks), and yet the other half believes that feminism has no responsibility to men's issues as it is specifically a women's movement. This dichotomy in feminist thinking continues on and puts MRAs in a no-win situation.
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Old 11th April 2019, 09:06 AM   #206
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Originally Posted by pharphis View Post
No one ever seems to care about this. They seem to think that a decade or two of rich people voting (or land-owning, or whatever) is somehow indicative of unique oppression of women. There seems to be this image that men had centuries of voting before women did.
And although it's clear that women were, as a rule, definitely not treated as equals, an overwhelming criterion for power was class. See how much power men had over women if a male serf insulted a princess to her face.
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Old 11th April 2019, 09:08 AM   #207
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Generally speaking, I support pro-men reform movements. My problem with the MRA movement is the co-mingling with these less desirable elements. To my eye, a poor job of demarcation is a red flag.
Not to bring politics into it, but I feel the same way about MAGA followers: I know they are not all racist, but they seem happy to not alienate the racists in their midsts.
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Old 11th April 2019, 09:09 AM   #208
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
That's a bit like saying that black Americans should stop whining about the fact that their families could not accumulate wealth over the last 200 years in the same way white families could.

It is not that distant in the past, and the effects are still with us.

My mother was just lamenting about how she had to get my dad to sign off on her first business loan as well as her choice to have tubal ligation after I was born. Both of those were just a few decades ago. When they went to sell their house the mortgage company would not talk to her on the phone without my dad giving them permission to talk to her. That was just five years ago.

It is nice that my wife doesn't have to put with some of the ******** that my mom put up with, but that doesn't mean that ******** didn't effect my life in numerous negative ways.
TBH this seems on the surface quite surprising and terrible. But my suspicion is this has more to do with how we view married couples (or common law, in some places) as a single entity requiring both to agree to certain things ie not just one person can make all the decisions (without the other agreeing in advance). Is this in the US?
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Old 11th April 2019, 09:10 AM   #209
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
That's a bit like saying that black Americans should stop whining about the fact that their families could not accumulate wealth over the last 200 years in the same way white families could.
That's a terrible analogy. I didn't say women should stop whining, and the plight of black people is quite a different beast from that of women. Conflating the two only serves to muddle the separate causes for their respective treatment.

It's clear that the relative poverty of black people in the US is a direct consequence, at least partly, from slavery and segregation because it affected entire communities whose descendants still struggle to rise above their situation. That's completely dissimilar to women.
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Old 11th April 2019, 09:11 AM   #210
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
And although it's clear that women were, as a rule, definitely not treated as equals, an overwhelming criterion for power was class. See how much power men had over women if a male serf insulted a princess to her face.
About the same as if a male serf insulted the King's horse. The King's property is to be respected at all times.
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Old 11th April 2019, 09:12 AM   #211
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
I would never want to marry someone who made more money than me. I know anecdotes don't disprove generalities, and I know that since I'm currently a starving student my income level is laughable anyway, but it's true. I would feel very uncomfortable with a stark socioeconomic difference. I'd prefer a fairly even split, though I wouldn't have any problem being the breadwinner either. But I've never fantasized about getting myself a "provider," because that sounds creepy. I'm my own provider. I want a friend.

I basically agree with everything kelly said, except I don't personally identify as feminist. But it's definitely true that the extreme radfems and the extreme Redpillers are both insufferable. It makes me feel sick some days that there are groups out there who hate me so much purely for existing, but that's life. I try not to think about it. It does get me down sometimes. And yes, sometimes it scares me. I would worry about it more if i were active in the dating scene.
I feel the same way, but also feel compelled to commit what is probably some form of whataboutism:

Consider men for a moment. I think you'll find men (rather than women) are hated by people with actual power: Such as academics, or lobbying groups. I think you'd be hard-pressed to find any such example that hates women.

On the other hand, I'm sure other smaller populations such as homosexuals and trans folk are even worse in this regard.
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Old 11th April 2019, 09:12 AM   #212
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
As a curiosity, do you think we would be better off segregating boys and girls in school so they could be taught by people of their sex? Or do you think just having a healthy mix is fine?
I think that's a complex question. I'm familiar with research that shows girls learn better in an environment without male peers. And like I wrote in my post it's very possible that boys may learn better in an environment designed for their learning style.

On the other side, we as a society have rejected "separate but equal" in public services so it would be legally likely unworkable in public schools, and there is reason to be wary of the sort of disparities that caused the initial "separate but equal" case.

And I think there is a pressing need for people of any gender to socialize with each other. K-12 students do the lion's share of their socializing in school and with their classmates. And they do even more of their socializing outside their immediate comfort zone in school. Meaning a system of gender segregated schools might result in men and women with even less ability to understand and communicate with each other.

I think a teaching force that more closely matched the general population distribution would go a long way.
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Old 11th April 2019, 09:15 AM   #213
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
That's a terrible analogy. I didn't say women should stop whining, and the plight of black people is quite a different beast from that of women. Conflating the two only serves to muddle the separate causes for their respective treatment.

It's clear that the relative poverty of black people in the US is a direct consequence, at least partly, from slavery and segregation because it affected entire communities whose descendants still struggle to rise above their situation. That's completely dissimilar to women.
I didn't say it was the same, I said a bit similar.

I think that I, as a son of a woman who had to raise me in the south, suffered from the way she was discriminated against as a woman. I gave some general examples, because I value my anonymity. But, if that were not a concern I could point to actual family wealth being decreased because my mother and father were not treated as equals by financial institutions.
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Old 11th April 2019, 09:17 AM   #214
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
About the same as if a male serf insulted the King's horse. The King's property is to be respected at all times.
Keith, I have a good amount of respect for you but that was a very stupid response. As it happens, I had a nagging feeling you'd use it, because that's always what happens on this topic. It's an automatic, and dare I say thoughtless, reply. It indicates that, in your mind, women had zero power until recently, if at all, and any challenge to that idea must be swatted away, by any means necessary. Think, man!

I specified "to her face" because you know as well as I do that SHE would order her guards to beat the poor sucker up. The King or Prince don't need to be anywhere near the area. She's got plenty of political power on her own.

So since you must be aware of this, why did you go for that response?
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Old 11th April 2019, 09:18 AM   #215
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
I think that's a complex question. I'm familiar with research that shows girls learn better in an environment without male peers. And like I wrote in my post it's very possible that boys may learn better in an environment designed for their learning style.

On the other side, we as a society have rejected "separate but equal" in public services so it would be legally likely unworkable in public schools, and there is reason to be wary of the sort of disparities that caused the initial "separate but equal" case.

And I think there is a pressing need for people of any gender to socialize with each other. K-12 students do the lion's share of their socializing in school and with their classmates. And they do even more of their socializing outside their immediate comfort zone in school. Meaning a system of gender segregated schools might result in men and women with even less ability to understand and communicate with each other.

I think a teaching force that more closely matched the general population distribution would go a long way.
Thanks for your response. I don't know where I stand on this one, myself.

I went to a private high-school with only boys and sometimes I wish it had been mixed because it was a very rough environment for a nerd!
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Old 11th April 2019, 09:19 AM   #216
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Originally Posted by pharphis View Post
TBH this seems on the surface quite surprising and terrible. But my suspicion is this has more to do with how we view married couples (or common law, in some places) as a single entity requiring both to agree to certain things ie not just one person can make all the decisions (without the other agreeing in advance). Is this in the US?
My dad could call the mortgage company without my mom's consent. He was there when we were discussing it and it baffled him, too. They were co-borrowers on the loan.

In the US, but in the south. Sometimes that can matter.
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Old 11th April 2019, 09:20 AM   #217
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
My dad could call the mortgage company without my mom's consent. He was there when we were discussing it and it baffled him, too. They were co-borrowers on the loan.

In the US, but in the south. Sometimes that can matter.
Thanks for clarifying. That's bizarre


edit: I guess we won't be getting non-incel examples of murderers that I as an MRA need to condemn
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Old 11th April 2019, 09:22 AM   #218
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Keith, I have a good amount of respect for you but that was a very stupid response. As it happens, I had a nagging feeling you'd use it, because that's always what happens on this topic. It's an automatic, and dare I say thoughtless, reply. It indicates that, in your mind, women had zero power until recently, if at all, and any challenge to that idea must be swatted away, by any means necessary. Think, man!

I specified "to her face" because you know as well as I do that SHE would order her guards to beat the poor sucker up. The King or Prince don't need to be anywhere near the area. She's got plenty of political power on her own.

So since you must be aware of this, why did you go for that response?
Because her power was not her own. It was her father's. Upon her father's removal from the throne her power would cease to exist. Although nothing about her had changed. Similarly, the former King's horse would be open to gratuitous insult.
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Old 11th April 2019, 09:28 AM   #219
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Because her power was not her own. It was her father's. Upon her father's removal from the throne her power would cease to exist. Although nothing about her had changed. Similarly, the former King's horse would be open to gratuitous insult.
That's not really true. We have plenty of examples of queens who ruled without a king.

A better response might be to point out that the small counterexample of the weirdness of monarchal power does negate the reality of life for the vast majority of women. Class intersects with gender and royalty is the ultimate manifestation of class.
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Old 11th April 2019, 09:31 AM   #220
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Because her power was not her own. It was her father's. Upon her father's removal from the throne her power would cease to exist.
That's true of anyone who serves a particular dynasty, first of all. The Prince's power could also be removed at the same time as his father's head, right?

Second, you're wrong, as evidenced by the number of queen regnants, female regents, and coups and machinations by women, several of them successful.

It is entirely possible, Doctor, that women were not equals by a long shot, and yet did not have zero power of their own. The two are not mutually exclusive, and the alternative is both simplistic and historically incorrect.
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Old 11th April 2019, 09:36 AM   #221
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
You know that what you wrote isn't what I was saying.
It's exactly what you are arguing.

Quote:
You've clearly bought into the idea that "equality" means parity.
If by clearly you mean 'I just made this up' then yes

Quote:
It doesn't. My wife makes half of my earnings. Is that a 'problem', or a result of our choices? Why doesn't that apply to the larger population? Do you think it's reasonable to conclude that women and men might possibly make different choices, and that these choices might have nothing to do with anything one would identify as problematic?
i don't know enough about your wife or you to possibly comment. But yes when it happens across entire societies then it suggests there is a problem.

Quote:
My issue with your line of thinking is that, assuming for the sake of argument that, even absent social pressures, discrimination and the like are removed from the equation, there'd still be imbalances in a number of fields, you'd still conclude that there's a problem even though we've just stipulated that there aren't any.

ETA: In other words, you need to eliminate this possibility in order to be able to claim that you know that there's a problem behind the disparity, and you haven't done that.
Your issue with my line of thinking appears to be that you can't follow it. Because if we eliminate all the reasons why there would be a disparity and there is still a disparity then we have clearly missed something.

if we haven't eliminated all the causes then what is left are either justified or unjustified causes. And in the absence of a justification they are all unjustified.

Your argument tries to turn that on the head by arguing that we should assume the causes are justified unless someone can prove they aren't. And presumably means we can't try to address them to show that they are unjustified?
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Old 11th April 2019, 09:39 AM   #222
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Originally Posted by pharphis View Post
Thanks for clarifying. That's bizarre
It was. If it happened to my wife she would have lost it in an unholy way. My mother was conditioned to being treated as such.


Quote:
edit: I guess we won't be getting non-incel examples of murderers that I as an MRA need to condemn
I have no idea. Sometimes folks come and go from conversations.

As a former Christian I do feel some responsibility for the terrible things done by other Christians, even if they are not of my sect. I condemn them because they are wrong and their atrocities are not consistent with the core teachings I grew up with. I don't condemn them out of a sense of responsibility, though.

From the beginning of this discussion in the other thread I tagged this as a taxonomical discussion. I don't think focussing on the distinctions between incels and other in the men's rights movement does as much to remove them from the men's rights movement as you may hope. Recognizing them as a deranged version of what you see as the true meaning of the men's rights movement may be part of creating that better taxonomical definition of the various parts of the men's rights movement.

Although, religious folks still want to lump atheist in with satanist, so I don't know if it is a exercise that will change how others see you.
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Old 11th April 2019, 09:45 AM   #223
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
It's exactly what you are arguing.
If you really think so then you have not understood my argument at all. The concept of equality isn't "everybody should get the same results", which is how you seem to be defining "inequality". The concept is in allowing everybody to have a fairly equal shot.

Quote:
If by clearly you mean 'I just made this up' then yes
It follows directly from what you said about my argument! You reacted to my suggestion that some disparity may not be problematic with a quip that I was not in favour of equality. This suggests that you indeed think that both are one and the same. Which is it?

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i don't know enough about your wife or you to possibly comment. But yes when it happens across entire societies then it suggests there is a problem.
Why?

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Your issue with my line of thinking appears to be that you can't follow it. Because if we eliminate all the reasons why there would be a disparity and there is still a disparity then we have clearly missed something.
But stop and think about that for a moment: you are assuming that there can't be a completely harmless reason for some of that disparity. You are assuming that disparity is a problem in and of itself. When I ask you why you shift the burden to ask me why it wouldn't be a problem, but that's not a reasonable burden of proof. Why would it be a problem?

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if we haven't eliminated all the causes then what is left are either justified or unjustified causes. And in the absence of a justification they are all unjustified.
Well excuse the pun but that's an unjustified position. Your ignorance, or mine, is no excuse to reach a conclusion. It's not as if we can compare our society to an ideal one and say "oh, see, there's a 6% difference in the male-to-female distribution in truck drivers!" We have to establish that there's a problem to be solved, and simply assuming that the spread should be around 50% is not justified unless we can justify it.

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Your argument tries to turn that on the head by arguing that we should assume the causes are justified unless someone can prove they aren't.
Not assuming that the causes are unjustified is not the same thing as assuming that they are justified. Do you not see the difference?
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Old 11th April 2019, 10:02 AM   #224
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Originally Posted by Georgio View Post
@kellyb
You seem very switched on, reasonable and fair. You say you identify as a feminist; can I ask what you think of the Duluth Model of domestic violence 'treatment', Erin Pizzey and her history with feminism, Earl Silverman and his history with it and so on? I can provide resources but you seem more informed than me anyway
I had never heard of that (the Duluth Model of domestic violence) before, but I just googled it, and it sounds spot on.

I've never heard of Erin Pizzey or Earl Silverman, either. I'm no scholar of feminism! lol Like I said, I try to keep feminist groups at an arm's length because of all the toxic groupthink I've observed. I have a hardcore "skepticism first" personal philosophy with everything from politics to social issues and feminism to parenting. This works for me. I'm better at everything when skepticism guides the rest. Thanks for the compliment, by the way. Is there controversy over the Duluth Model?
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Old 11th April 2019, 10:09 AM   #225
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
That's completely dissimilar to women.
I don't know, man.
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Old 11th April 2019, 10:11 AM   #226
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Originally Posted by pharphis View Post
I feel the same way, but also feel compelled to commit what is probably some form of whataboutism:

Consider men for a moment. I think you'll find men (rather than women) are hated by people with actual power: Such as academics, or lobbying groups. I think you'd be hard-pressed to find any such example that hates women.

On the other hand, I'm sure other smaller populations such as homosexuals and trans folk are even worse in this regard.
On the particular thought tangent on which you commented, I was (personally) thinking more about the types of people who see me at the grocery store and secretly want to hurt me or wish I'd be hurt. Like, the crazy ones from Reddit. Thankfully, I don't think any of them have much lobbying influence. But it still makes me sad. Radfems who explicitly say that men are evil are disgusting make me despair as well. They don't target me in their ideology, so they don't frighten me as much, but they are frightening.

I'll have to put more thought into a proper response to the thoughts you shared above. I am at work, popping in and out. What possessed me to wade into a sexism-issues thread for my light side-reading today is something I'm still trying to figure out . But it's interesting, and I don't regret it.
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Old 11th April 2019, 10:15 AM   #227
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
For ****'s sake... that's messed up.

Yes, that's kind of monstrous, sure. But it's dissimilar because it's not as if women live in communities of women. That's what I meant. A woman's economic situation is not directly related to that of her mom.
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Old 11th April 2019, 10:16 AM   #228
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Question

Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
On the particular thought tangent on which you commented, I was (personally) thinking more about the types of people who see me at the grocery store and secretly want to hurt me or wish I'd be hurt.
Why would they want you hurt?
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Old 11th April 2019, 10:23 AM   #229
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
From the beginning of this discussion in the other thread I tagged this as a taxonomical discussion. I don't think focussing on the distinctions between incels and other in the men's rights movement does as much to remove them from the men's rights movement as you may hope. Recognizing them as a deranged version of what you see as the true meaning of the men's rights movement may be part of creating that better taxonomical definition of the various parts of the men's rights movement.

Although, religious folks still want to lump atheist in with satanist, so I don't know if it is a exercise that will change how others see you.
See, I look at incels from a disease epidemiology perspective, too, in addition to looking at the taxonomy, and I don't think someone like pharphis actually has anything at all in common with the mentally deranged incels, who have a mental health disorder of some sort, which has an etiology possibly shared with the PUAs.
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Old 11th April 2019, 10:31 AM   #230
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Why would they want you hurt?
I guess just because I'm a woman? Reddit and Voat have some "interesting" corners where all these guys (I guess they are technically incels, but I see the redpill term used too) post and bitch about how angry it makes them to see women just walking around. Seeing happy couples is mentioned a lot as well, with equal or worse venom. The underlying thought process seems to be that they are pre-supposing all women would either be cruel to them or try to manipulate them or "play" them. These extremists appear to believe that women have no desire to just love men and be in loving friendships and relationships with them. They think (or SAY they think) that relationships are all transactional to us, all of us, seemingly by evolutionary design. That Elliot Rodger guy made a lot of posts in those kinds of dark fringe arenas, and now is called "St. Elliot" by portions of the community, which is just horrible, even if some are merely trolling.

It just makes me sad. It also makes me feel kind of ashamed, if I'm being perfectly honest. More than kind of. It's hard to explain.

Then, when I pop over to the GenderCritical radfem area or something to see what the other end of the nuttery-spectrum is saying, I find a lot of equally toxic invective and ridiculously over-the-top sentiments of perpetual victimhood and sinister male conspiracies that just don't exist. It gets me really despairing for the hope of a harmonious human society. And then I think about how the two sides are each just gift-wrapping propaganda for the other by making these crazy posts, which are inevitably screenshotted and twitted feverishly around by the other "side." I ******* hate it. Extremism just scares me in a way other things can't.


EDIT: Oh - the eventual point I meant to make was that I understand these guys are not MRAs, but rather incels and extreme anti-feminists. However, I can understand how the general population might get confused. I was able to find many mainstream news sources identifying Elliot Rodger as an "MRA," for example, while others correctly cited the incel communities to which he belonged. But most average people never delve deeply into these definitions, so they might have just seen the MRA-label and now believe MRAs are all misogynists.

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Old 11th April 2019, 10:43 AM   #231
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
I guess just because I'm a woman? Reddit and Voat have some "interesting" corners where all these guys (I guess they are technically incels, but I see the redpill term used too) post and bitch about how angry it makes them to see women just walking around.
Wow, that's both bizarre and frightening. I've never heard anyone say something like that. I guess I don't hang out in the right places!

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It gets me really despairing for the hope of a harmonious human society.
Yeah maybe the far-future is less Star Trek and more Warhammer 40,000.
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Old 11th April 2019, 10:45 AM   #232
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
I guess just because I'm a woman? Reddit and Voat have some "interesting" corners where all these guys (I guess they are technically incels, but I see the redpill term used too) post and bitch about how angry it makes them to see women just walking around. Seeing happy couples is mentioned a lot as well, with equal or worse venom. The underlying thought process seems to be that they are pre-supposing all women would either be cruel to them or try to manipulate them or "play" them. These extremists appear to believe that women have no desire to just love men and be in loving friendships and relationships with them. They think (or SAY they think) that relationships are all transactional to us, all of us, seemingly by evolutionary design. That Elliot Rodger guy made a lot of posts in those kinds of dark fringe arenas, and now is called "St. Elliot" by portions of the community, which is just horrible, even if some are merely trolling.

It just makes me sad. It also makes me feel kind of ashamed, if I'm being perfectly honest. More than kind of. It's hard to explain.

Then, when I pop over to the GenderCritical radfem area or something to see what the other end of the nuttery-spectrum is saying, I find a lot of equally toxic invective and ridiculously over-the-top sentiments of perpetual victimhood and sinister male conspiracies that just don't exist. It gets me really despairing for the hope of a harmonious human society. And then I think about how the two sides are each just gift-wrapping propaganda for the other by making these crazy posts, which are inevitably screenshotted and twitted feverishly around by the other "side." I ******* hate it. Extremism just scares me in a way other things can't.


EDIT: Oh - the eventual point I meant to make was that I understand these guys are not MRAs, but rather incels and extreme anti-feminists. However, I can understand how the general population might get confused. I was able to find many mainstream news sources identifying Elliot Rodger as an "MRA," for example, while others correctly cited the incel communities to which he belonged. But most average people never delve deeply into these definitions, so they might have just seen the MRA-label and now believe MRAs are all misogynists.
I feel your pain!!!!

I suspect when those scary incelpillers (or whatever they are or they can be called) enter the wild, they call themselves MRAs, too, which complicates and confuses things.
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Old 11th April 2019, 10:48 AM   #233
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Wow, that's both bizarre and frightening. I've never heard anyone say something like that. I guess I don't hang out in the right places!
If you're being snarky, allow me to remind you that I did say it was the dark fringe corners of Reddit and Voat, lol. That's like North of the Wall as far as applicability to the real world is typically concerned.

However. The mere existence of such views in anyone, let alone active communities, is just the sort of thing that upsets me. I want to understand their extremism (both sides), so I go to their areas and lurk and read about it. Am I seeking out things that upset me? Yes, but also, the way I work is it's always worse not knowing. So I try to explore the things that scare me and seem like serious wounds in society to me, even though it can leave me shaken and mildly paranoid. This is something I've done going back a long ways, and it's what initially led me to this forum!

Read GenderCritical subreddit sometime. I know you are not a guy whose feelings would be easily hurt, but some of that's got to sting a bit, right? It's just awful.
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Old 11th April 2019, 10:52 AM   #234
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
I feel your pain!!!!

I suspect when those scary incelpillers (or whatever they are or they can be called) enter the wild, they call themselves MRAs, too, which complicates and confuses things.
I do think some of them co-opt the "MRA" label in order to sneak in places and concern troll, and that's really unfortunate for people who just care about and are active around men's issues.
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Old 11th April 2019, 10:53 AM   #235
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
If you're being snarky, allow me to remind you that I did say it was the dark fringe corners of Reddit and Voat, lol. That's like North of the Wall as far as applicability to the real world is typically concerned.

However. The mere existence of such views in anyone, let alone active communities, is just the sort of thing that upsets me. I want to understand their extremism (both sides), so I go to their areas and lurk and read about it. Am I seeking out things that upset me? Yes, but also, the way I work is it's always worse not knowing. So I try to explore the things that scare me and seem like serious wounds in society to me, even though it can leave me shaken and mildly paranoid.
Same here.

I think you should consider reconsider feminism.
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Old 11th April 2019, 10:55 AM   #236
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
If you're being snarky, allow me to remind you that I did say it was the dark fringe corners of Reddit and Voat, lol.
I wasn't being snarky, just slightly sarcastic through the use of "right" when of course I meant "wrong". But you did mention grocery stores. Did some people IRL make those kinds of comments or did you notice these sorts of extreme opinions only online?
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Old 11th April 2019, 10:59 AM   #237
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
If you really think so then you have not understood my argument at all. The concept of equality isn't "everybody should get the same results", which is how you seem to be defining "inequality". The concept is in allowing everybody to have a fairly equal shot.
Nothing I have said implies everyone should get the same results. What I am saying is that you can't just look at inequal results and throw your hands up and say 'that's just the way it is' without some justification that the inequal results are justified


Quote:
It follows directly from what you said about my argument! You reacted to my suggestion that some disparity may not be problematic with a quip that I was not in favour of equality. This suggests that you indeed think that both are one and the same. Which is it?
No, I quite clearly said if you are willing to accept inequality WITHOUT a justification then you are not in favour of equality.

Quote:
Why?
because systemic differences like that don't happen by accident.

[quote]
But stop and think about that for a moment: you are assuming that there can't be a completely harmless reason for some of that disparity. [[quote]

No, I am not. I am saying you don't get to assume there IS a harmless reason for inequality until you show there is. Because until you do the inequality is unjustified.

Quote:
You are assuming that disparity is a problem in and of itself. When I ask you why you shift the burden to ask me why it wouldn't be a problem, but that's not a reasonable burden of proof. Why would it be a problem?
Because if you are in favour of equality you don't accept UNJUSTIFIED inequalities as OK. That is absolutely a reasonable burden of proof if you are in favour of equality.



Quote:
Well excuse the pun but that's an unjustified position. Your ignorance, or mine, is no excuse to reach a conclusion. It's not as if we can compare our society to an ideal one and say "oh, see, there's a 6% difference in the male-to-female distribution in truck drivers!" We have to establish that there's a problem to be solved, and simply assuming that the spread should be around 50% is not justified unless we can justify it.
It's not an unjustified position, its simply a logical application of language. Until something is justified it starts, remains and ends as unjustified. If you are genuinely unsure whether certain inequalities are immutable then the way to demonstrate that is to try, and fail, to alleviate them. But generally when we try to alleviate inequalities we see that these efforts bear fruit.

Quote:
Not assuming that the causes are unjustified is not the same thing as assuming that they are justified. Do you not see the difference?
The causes ARE unjustified until they are justified. That's just how words work.
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Old 11th April 2019, 11:01 AM   #238
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Keep in mind that even among extremists (of any variety) the likelihood that they will be violent towards others is very small, and anonymity leads to even more extreme behavior/thoughts (expressed online) than you'd expect to actually see in public

It is very sad to read, though.

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Old 11th April 2019, 11:02 AM   #239
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the dark fringe corners of Reddit and Voat, lol
I looked at voat. Jews and GMO corn, sports fans are closet gays, anti-vax posts and the Christchurch killer referred to as "Saint Tarrant."

Maybe don't read that stuff?
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Old 11th April 2019, 11:05 AM   #240
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I wasn't being snarky, just slightly sarcastic through the use of "right" when of course I meant "wrong". But you did mention grocery stores. Did some people IRL make those kinds of comments or did you notice these sorts of extreme opinions only online?
No, see, the comments I was reading that were on my mind when I made my post were about how angry seeing women at the grocery store made a bunch of posters. It was somewhere on Reddit. The thread was full of posts where these guys seethed about different angers seeing women at the grocery store caused them. Talking about they know they're teasing people and they're being bitches about it. Or seeing couples kiss and laughing to themselves because "that bitch is cheating on him." Seriously. I was reading it going, WOW, jesus h, what the ****. Ugly this, "Stacy" that. Which grocery stores are these, so I can avoid them? (No way to tell.)

Anger at sighting women other places was mentioned too, of course, but the topic started about grocery stores, and they stayed prevalent because it's a common place to see both women and couples (I guess).

It was nuts. The more I think about it, the more sure I am this occurred in the now-banned incel community on Reddit, but back when it was newer and not quite as balls-out crazy.

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