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Old 12th April 2019, 12:02 PM   #321
kellyb
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
Oh, I thought he meant the difference between jobs like STEM and jobs like teachers, social work, etc. (Or hairdressers, I suppose.) Like, why do we worry more about gender equality in one field than others. I assume it's because one has much higher earning potential. The key word being potential - obviously there are plenty of starving mathematicians and rich celebrity hairdressers. I'm just talking generalities.

I was reading too fast again, multi-tasking and such. My bad.
It might be me who's misreading. Belz and I have major communication issues sometimes. lol
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Old 12th April 2019, 12:21 PM   #322
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
1) "argument by youtube" is considered weaksauce here 2) you cannot seriously expect us to spend 45 minutes of our lives watching "red pill files"
Why on earth not? It's an interview with the person who started the first domestic violence shelter. The only reason it's called 'Red Pill RAW Files' is because they are the full interviews used in the documentary 'The Red Pill'.

Oh well, here's an article written by Pizzey that pretty much goes over the same material that she does in the interview.

https://honest-ribbon.org/mega-featu...stic-violence/

The reason I quoted this in response to SuburbanTurkey's often repeated myth that feminists were responsible for domestic violence even becoming recognised as an issue is because Erin Pizzey started the world's first shelter for abused women. Really let those words sink in; she started the very first shelter in the entire world. It was Pizzey that brought this subject out into the open. It was NOT feminists.

I'm close to tears typing this. It never, ever fails to make me choke up when people say that we wouldn't know about DV if it weren't for feminists because those very feminists were responsible for co-opting this wonderful woman's work as an amplifier for their ideology, as well as initiating a harassment and intimidation campaign that forced her to leave the country. It's the same feeling as seeing someone wearing a Che Guevara T-Shirt as a symbol of peace and equality.

In the interview she discusses how she was able to get funding for a women's shelter but not for a men's shelter, and how it was feminists who picketed and protested the idea of a men's shelter existing simply because the idea of men being capable of being victims of abuse and women being capable of being perpetrators ran contrary to their ideology.

And they're still doing it, and people are still falling for it. The overwhelming scientific consensus is that domestic violence is not a gendered issue http://web.csulb.edu/~mfiebert/assault.htm , yet it is still treated as though it is as a result of this horrifically successful propaganda campaign from feminists.

Did you know that a male child of a female victim staying in a shelter is not allowed to stay there after the age of 11 because he is then too close to being a man and is therefore seen as a threat to people's safety?
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Old 12th April 2019, 12:37 PM   #323
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I think call-out culture is what really gave feminism the bad name it seems to have now. Feminism as an academic discipline isn't really bothering anybody. (Not outside academia, anyway.) Nutters on social media calling everyone out for imagined sexism, on the other hand, are what really drove the stake in for this generation.


EDIT: That and BS like the Rolling Stone article. The overall dialogue declined sharply around that time, and has continued downward, in my opinion.

Last edited by isissxn; 12th April 2019 at 12:40 PM.
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Old 12th April 2019, 12:55 PM   #324
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Well....I just did more reading on incels, including over at the incel forum and although I was hoping for a rich source of lolcows, the whole place was really, really depressing. These are societies rejects, societies losers and they know it. I figure that if these guys ever held a conference, it would feature a suicide room. If feminists want to get there panties in a bunch over these guys well then that's even sadder than the incels.

MGTOW ? Who cares really ? Dudes want to live their own lives, so freakin' what ?

PUAs ? Haven't gone there yet.

MRAs ? All I'm seeing is a bunch of people pointing out double standards, like a judge who told a drunk woman driver that she'd be going to jail if she were a man, or pointing out a piece by Jessica Valenti that says most anti-vaxxers are moms because the medical establishment doesn't always take them seriously. In short, anti-vaxxers ( who are women ) are victims.

The only reason I can see why feminists hate these guys so much is because they dare to question feminist orthodoxy and if there's one thing that feminism hates the most, is having it's dogma questioned.
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Old 12th April 2019, 01:12 PM   #325
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Originally Posted by Georgio View Post
Did you know that a male child of a female victim staying in a shelter is not allowed to stay there after the age of 11 because he is then too close to being a man and is therefore seen as a threat to people's safety?
Yeah, that's how it is with the Salvation Army here, and I'm also working on getting a city run shelter for women and children that won't have that awful rule.
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Old 12th April 2019, 01:13 PM   #326
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
EDIT: That and BS like the Rolling Stone article. The overall dialogue declined sharply around that time, and has continued downward, in my opinion.
Which article?
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Old 12th April 2019, 01:15 PM   #327
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
Well....I just did more reading on incels, including over at the incel forum and although I was hoping for a rich source of lolcows, the whole place was really, really depressing. These are societies rejects, societies losers and they know it. I figure that if these guys ever held a conference, it would feature a suicide room. If feminists want to get there panties in a bunch over these guys well then that's even sadder than the incels.
My opinion exactly. In my view it is so obviously a gigantic cry for help. I've seen quite a few videos where people try to take a 'tough love' approach and I can never believe just how self evidently self defeating that approach is; these are people who are clearly incredibly mentally weak, have been told constantly that they are pretty much worthless and are in a position where they are lashing out and blaming everyone for their problems, and people come along and tell them that they're mentally weak and that they're pretty much worthless and are blaming everyone for their problems and call it 'helping'. These people need a psychiatrist; they do not need a caricature of a 1950s gym teacher, but that's all they tend to get.

I forget who said it but I think this sums it up perfectly: 'Only a feminist could see a man with nothing and try to take it away from him'.
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Old 12th April 2019, 01:18 PM   #328
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
I'm also working on getting a city run shelter for women and children
What's the problem with just setting up a shelter?
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Old 12th April 2019, 01:24 PM   #329
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Originally Posted by Georgio View Post
What's the problem with just setting up a shelter?
Myself personally? As a private charity? I'm not that much above the poverty line myself, for starters.
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Old 12th April 2019, 01:27 PM   #330
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You want men to be hairdressers? Pay them more.

See also: veterinarians
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Old 12th April 2019, 01:44 PM   #331
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Myself personally? As a private charity? I'm not that much above the poverty line myself, for starters.
Sorry, I realised how unclear that was after I'd written it. I meant why don't you want to set up a shelter for everyone? Why limit it to women and children?
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Old 12th April 2019, 01:49 PM   #332
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Originally Posted by Georgio View Post
Sorry, I realised how unclear that was after I'd written it. I meant why don't you want to set up a shelter for everyone? Why limit it to women and children?
It would be too tough a sell, politically. I'm in the Bible Belt. Getting a men's shelter is the most urgent need, and the one I'm focusing on first.
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Old 12th April 2019, 01:51 PM   #333
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Originally Posted by Georgio View Post
My opinion exactly. In my view it is so obviously a gigantic cry for help. I've seen quite a few videos where people try to take a 'tough love' approach and I can never believe just how self evidently self defeating that approach is; these are people who are clearly incredibly mentally weak, have been told constantly that they are pretty much worthless and are in a position where they are lashing out and blaming everyone for their problems, and people come along and tell them that they're mentally weak and that they're pretty much worthless and are blaming everyone for their problems and call it 'helping'. These people need a psychiatrist; they do not need a caricature of a 1950s gym teacher, but that's all they tend to get.

I forget who said it but I think this sums it up perfectly: 'Only a feminist could see a man with nothing and try to take it away from him'.
Mentally weak, socially awkward, however you want to characterize them I'm sure we've all know a couple of these guys in our lifetimes. The guys that never get invited to parties, always picked last for the team. those guys.

I don't know what anyone can do for them ( outside of a mercy **** that is ) but a psychiatric intervention in probably one avenue. The funny thing is, over at the incel forum there's a big banner ad for sex dolls. It came right past my adblocker so it must be part of the actual website.

Bur if I were an MRA, I wouldn't want these guys associated with my movement.

Last edited by Stout; 12th April 2019 at 01:51 PM. Reason: spelling
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Old 12th April 2019, 01:55 PM   #334
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Jesus. The only way you are going to know if there are ways to increase the participation rates is to act and see if they work! People didn't get more women into STEM by sitting around studying biology and trying to work out the precisely correct participation rates they got off their asses and did things to promote the topic amongst women. And hallelujah it turns out that can help!
You are muddying the clear waters here. A trend in education to get more women into STEM has been on since the early 1980s. There have been some really bad results for everyone. First, boys have been left behind from the earliest grades. Second, the focus is now on those areas that women show little to no interest in. More valuable resources are being poured in with no return on investment.

The trouble here is that you want equality of outcomes which is impossible. The correct course of action is to ensure equality of opportunity. For example, were the people who achieved a certain standard on an entrance exam, all given a space regardless of gender/race/sexual orientation/etc.? That's equality. Equality of outcome is impossible because it fails to address individual choice. We know why women aren't in certain areas of STEM and it is the work environment they tend not to like but males tend to thrive in. It is an environment that leads to the highest return on investment because it is so competitive. If you can figure out how to get rid of the competitive aspect without negatively affecting the return on investment, more women will join in. The issue is how when you are competing against other companies for millions, or billions, of dollars?

Outside of that, the only possible equality measurement is "Is everyone doing this job getting the same pay?"

We talked about hair dressers/barbers but let's talk about something more relevant. Most GPs graduating today are female. Why isn't anyone discussing the need to address why males aren't going into that field at an equal rate? The only reason is that we aren't interested in equality, we are interested in furthering a particular agenda.
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Old 12th April 2019, 02:08 PM   #335
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
Bur if I were an MRA, I wouldn't want these guys associated with my movement.
That's the thing; they're not associated with it. Their views are in absolute opposition to the MRA talking points on self worth and the traditional way that that has been linked to sexual and social prowess in men (in a similar way to how not having had lots of sex is linked to self worth in women). The only people who associate incels with the men's rights movement are people who don't know anything about incels, MRAs or both, or who are deliberately conflating them.

After the Alek Minassian shooting, quite a few MRAs made videos on incels, but they were all, without exception, saying that being an incel is wrong because a man's self worth should not be in direct proportion to the amount of sex he has had or is having. They were all trying to help incels realise that not having lots of sex doesn't make you less worthy as a human being, just how having lots of sex doesn't make women less worthy as human beings.
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Old 12th April 2019, 02:10 PM   #336
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
It would be too tough a sell, politically. I'm in the Bible Belt. Getting a men's shelter is the most urgent need, and the one I'm focusing on first.
Have I read that correctly? You're trying to set up a men's shelter?
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Old 12th April 2019, 02:27 PM   #337
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Originally Posted by Georgio View Post
Have I read that correctly? You're trying to set up a men's shelter?
Yes. There is no free men's shelter in my city. I let homeless dudes camp in my backyard and sleep on my front porch all the time. Memphis need a free, city-run men's shelter desperately.
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Old 12th April 2019, 02:28 PM   #338
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Originally Posted by Georgio View Post
The reason I quoted this in response to SuburbanTurkey's often repeated myth that feminists were responsible for domestic violence even becoming recognised as an issue is because Erin Pizzey started the world's first shelter for abused women. Really let those words sink in; she started the very first shelter in the entire world. It was Pizzey that brought this subject out into the open. It was NOT feminists.
I know Pizzey does not see herself as a feminist, but that seems to start from her early negative experience with the British Women's Liberation Movement. So, she was attracted to the movement and put off by the people who were running it. Then attacked by the radical elements within the movements.

Sounds like she was a women's rights activist who got on the wrong side of the radical feminists.

She also seems to share your definition of feminist, while also recognizing that it was radical feminist who she had a problem with.
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Old 12th April 2019, 02:47 PM   #339
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Yes. There is no free men's shelter in my city. I let homeless dudes camp in my backyard and sleep on my front porch all the time. Memphis need a free, city-run men's shelter desperately.
Absolutely fantastic. Thank you!
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Old 12th April 2019, 03:00 PM   #340
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
She also seems to share your definition of feminist, while also recognizing that it was radical feminist who she had a problem with.
In Pizzey's words what she was trying to do was 'hijacked by the women's movement'. I don't really know what to say about this apparent distinction between 'radical feminist' and 'feminist'. Feminism is based on an idea that is provably false (patriarchy theory), and if you accept patriarchy theory there's no reason to reject much of what radical feminists say.

The thing is, as we've seen, pretty much everyone is a feminist if we stop at the dictionary definition. Every anti-feminist I know is a feminist by that definition.

I often think of the idea that 'Feminism is about equality between the sexes' is a sort of colloquial 'Reset' button. People use it because, for some reason, they are so attached to the label 'feminist' that they want to retain it even if they can't find a feminist organisation that they agree with, and even if every feminist who has read something on the subject other than the dictionary definition disagrees with egalitarianism.
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Old 12th April 2019, 03:07 PM   #341
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Originally Posted by Georgio View Post
In Pizzey's words what she was trying to do was 'hijacked by the women's movement'. I don't really know what to say about this apparent distinction between 'radical feminist' and 'feminist'. Feminism is based on an idea that is provably false (patriarchy theory), and if you accept patriarchy theory there's no reason to reject much of what radical feminists say.

The thing is, as we've seen, pretty much everyone is a feminist if we stop at the dictionary definition. Every anti-feminist I know is a feminist by that definition.

I often think of the idea that 'Feminism is about equality between the sexes' is a sort of colloquial 'Reset' button. People use it because, for some reason, they are so attached to the label 'feminist' that they want to retain it even if they can't find a feminist organisation that they agree with, and even if every feminist who has read something on the subject other than the dictionary definition disagrees with egalitarianism.
I think it has more to do with the fact that there were some glaring and historical inequalities that held society back and the people who worked to change those inequalities were all called feminists. Some small subset were anti-men radical feminist, but I think that most were not. Most people who supported changing laws over the last 100 years to bring women closer to men on most legal issues were not doing so out of a hatred of men, but out of a hatred of inequality.

I wonder how MRAs could harness that hatred of inequality to their own causes? I think not attacking "feminism" would be a start. Because lots of egalitarian people who would be very open to helping your fight consider themselves to be feminists. Blame "radical feminism" all you want, but I would have a hard time supporting an organization whose headlining philosophy is "anti-feminist". Even after this discussion.
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Old 12th April 2019, 03:17 PM   #342
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
and the people who worked to change those inequalities were all called feminists.
Who are you talking about?
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Old 12th April 2019, 03:26 PM   #343
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Which article?
The one where the reporter covered a really dramatic story of a gang-rape and its systemic brush-off at a college. The story turned out to be fabricated, and a bunch of people really flipped out. The dialogue got nasty.

Come to think of it, wasn't "gamergate" happening around the same time? That was a wild year.
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Old 12th April 2019, 03:27 PM   #344
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Originally Posted by Georgio View Post
Who are you talking about?
One hundred years ago it was considered radical to advocate for women's equality. The people who did so were often called feminists.

Feminist was used to describe those fighting for women's suffrage, for example.
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Old 12th April 2019, 03:41 PM   #345
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
There are both dirt cheap and really expensive barbers and hairdressers, alike.
Sorry, the answer was "because those other jobs are prestigious. No one wants women to do coal mining."

Quote:
Belz and I have major communication issues sometimes.
That's because I haven't updated my communication protocols in ages.
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Old 12th April 2019, 03:51 PM   #346
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Feminist was used to describe those fighting for women's suffrage, for example.
Was it?
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Old 12th April 2019, 04:12 PM   #347
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Yes, it was:

Quote:
If it’s pro-equality, why is it “feminism” and not “equalism” or “humanism” ?
Because historically, “feminism” the idea and “feminism” the word rose in popularity together during the U.S. women’s suffrage movement of the late 1800’s andearly 1900’s, which was focused on getting women the right to vote. Since this was a problem only hurting women, the name made sense. As time has gone on, the goals have evolved but the name has stuck.
The Etymology Of “Feminism” (medium.com, May 6, 2017)
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Old 12th April 2019, 04:42 PM   #348
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Yes, it was:
Have you got anything first hand? A newspaper article maybe? The thing is there were a few different groups trying to get votes for women at the time, not all of them feminist. There were the suffragettes (feminist and only interested in votes for women, not votes for everyone regardless of class or race), but there were also the suffragists who were trying to get universal suffrage.

The claim being made is that everyone who wanted votes for women was called a feminist; your quote doesn't demonstrate that.
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Old 12th April 2019, 04:59 PM   #349
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Well. All this "MRA" really thinks is this: As long as abortions of convenience are legal, men should be able to unilaterally opt out of fatherhood.
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Old 12th April 2019, 05:02 PM   #350
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A real man wouldn't opt out of being a father to his child regardless
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Old 12th April 2019, 05:39 PM   #351
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Well. All this "MRA" really thinks is this: As long as abortions of convenience are legal, men should be able to unilaterally opt out of fatherhood.
How do you figure? The two situations are not quite the same.
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Old 12th April 2019, 05:49 PM   #352
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They aren't in terms of a baby existing and needing care. A better analogue would be "safe haven" abandonment of children that mothers can do.
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Old 12th April 2019, 06:30 PM   #353
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Originally Posted by Georgio View Post
Have you got anything first hand? A newspaper article maybe? The thing is there were a few different groups trying to get votes for women at the time, not all of them feminist. There were the suffragettes (feminist and only interested in votes for women, not votes for everyone regardless of class or race), but there were also the suffragists who were trying to get universal suffrage.

The claim being made is that everyone who wanted votes for women was called a feminist; your quote doesn't demonstrate that.
https://www.rte.ie/centuryireland/im...m_May_1913.pdf
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Old 12th April 2019, 06:44 PM   #354
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Well. All this "MRA" really thinks is this: As long as abortions of convenience are legal, men should be able to unilaterally opt out of fatherhood.
But I'm assuming you're opposed to the state providing financial support for the mother and child in place of the father, as well? If you're not opposed to that, then perhaps a compromise could be made here.

If you are opposed to the state stepping in to provide the financial support the father would give, what's your moral justification?
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Last edited by kellyb; 12th April 2019 at 06:48 PM.
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Old 12th April 2019, 06:47 PM   #355
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
A real man wouldn't opt out of being a father to his child regardless
Honestly, people who are woefully unprepared for the burden of parenthood and truly wish to not be parents, tend to be terrible parents.
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Old 12th April 2019, 07:00 PM   #356
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Originally Posted by Georgio View Post
Have you got anything first hand? A newspaper article maybe? The thing is there were a few different groups trying to get votes for women at the time, not all of them feminist. There were the suffragettes (feminist and only interested in votes for women, not votes for everyone regardless of class or race), but there were also the suffragists who were trying to get universal suffrage.

The claim being made is that everyone who wanted votes for women was called a feminist; your quote doesn't demonstrate that.
I guess it depends on whether you include males in the sufferagetes or as feminists at the time

I mean it might have been a lot of work from both sexes to fight for it, but in the end it was a vote by a bunch of dudes who let it happen.
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Old 12th April 2019, 07:13 PM   #357
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
I guess it depends on whether you include males in the sufferagetes or as feminists at the time

I mean it might have been a lot of work from both sexes to fight for it, but in the end it was a vote by a bunch of dudes who let it happen.
In the UK, the sufferagetes began burning government buildings down to get the right to vote, and judges started getting spooked by all the little old lady sufferagetes coming in to get a gun license to remain armed at all times. That's actually where the UK gun control laws started.

They also learned jiu-jitsu to fight the police: https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-34425615
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Old 12th April 2019, 07:22 PM   #358
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
In the UK, the sufferagetes began burning government buildings down to get the right to vote, and judges started getting spooked by all the little old lady sufferagetes coming in to get a gun license to remain armed at all times. That's actually where the UK gun control laws started.

They also learned jiu-jitsu to fight the police: https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-34425615

That is actually quite awesome
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Old 12th April 2019, 07:27 PM   #359
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I wouldn't refer to terrorism as quite awesome. Or was that regarding jiu-jitsu?
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Old 12th April 2019, 07:40 PM   #360
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Originally Posted by pharphis View Post
I wouldn't refer to terrorism as quite awesome. Or was that regarding jiu-jitsu?
I dunno. If the most radical, kookiest version of feminists took over your country and stripped all men of the right to vote, and sicked the police on you violently if you just tried to protest, I wouldn't blame you for setting buildings on fire if you went that way in an attempt to regain an equal right to vote.
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