ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags voting , voting machines , voting systems

Reply
Old 13th April 2019, 07:55 PM   #1
Orphia Nay
Penguilicious Spodmaster.
Tagger
 
Orphia Nay's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Ponylandistan Presidential Palace (above the Spods' stables).
Posts: 36,649
Rigged or Hacked Voting Machines

This is going to be coming up at some point, so to set things off, a few links:

Jennifer Cohn on Diebold/Premier/Global/E&S/Dominion white collar crime & computer tampering, and current types of voting machines used in the USA:

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1...710072325.html

(Note, Georgia is currently debating what machines to get.)


Harpers, "How to rig an election":

https://harpers.org/archive/2012/11/...g-an-election/


And somewhat of a counterpoint (compulsory voting and paper ballots in Australia):

A history of compulsory voting in Australia (and why we are so good at elections)


Discuss voting machines and the 2020 US election.
__________________
Challenge your thoughts.
Don't believe everything you think.
Orphia Nay is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th April 2019, 08:28 PM   #2
shemp
a flimsy character...perfidious and despised
 
shemp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: People's Democratic Republic of Planet X
Posts: 31,741
Voting machines: no.

Compulsory voting: yes.

End of discussion.
__________________
"Shemp, you are the one fixed point in an ever-changing universe." - Beady
"I don't want to live in a world without shemp." - Quarky
"Real name? Xavier Jorge Gladdius Horatio McShrimp. No wonder he goes by shemp." - wasapi
"...just as a magnet attracts iron filings, Trump shemp attracts, and is attracted to, louts." - George Will
shemp is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th April 2019, 08:40 PM   #3
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 76,060
I should dig up all my old posts about Ohio's Ken Blackburn using Diebold voting machines when the owner said outright he supported GW.

I don't understand how the citizens of Ohio and these other states don't scream bloody murder about their proven-hackable voting machines.
__________________
That new avatar is cuteness overload.
Restore checks and balances no matter your party affiliation.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th April 2019, 02:48 AM   #4
Planigale
Illuminator
 
Planigale's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 3,210
Originally Posted by shemp View Post
Voting machines: no.

Compulsory voting: yes.

End of discussion.
Planigale is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th April 2019, 04:20 AM   #5
Upchurch
Papa Funkosophy
 
Upchurch's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 31,767
Originally Posted by shemp View Post
Voting machines: no.

Compulsory voting: yes.

End of discussion.
This with a side of implied automatic registration, please.
__________________
"There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -- Sherlock Holmes.
"Itís easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." -- Mark Twain, maybe.
Upchurch is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th April 2019, 04:43 AM   #6
Craig4
Penultimate Amazing
 
Craig4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Alexandria, VA Home to the Deep State.
Posts: 18,822
I'm given to understand voting comes with a sausage breakfast in Australia. Is this true?
Craig4 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th April 2019, 05:09 AM   #7
Upchurch
Papa Funkosophy
 
Upchurch's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 31,767
Since weíre going crazy with the voting practices, Iím going to throw in ranked choice voting in there, too.
__________________
"There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -- Sherlock Holmes.
"Itís easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." -- Mark Twain, maybe.
Upchurch is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th April 2019, 06:03 AM   #8
Norman Alexander
Philosopher
 
Norman Alexander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 6,203
Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
I'm given to understand voting comes with a sausage breakfast in Australia. Is this true?
We hold barbecues at polling places. You can get a sausage there. Some polling places are public schools, so they make a day of it - a school fundraising fete. Not only sausages but lots of other yummy stuff.
__________________
...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornetsí nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015
Norman Alexander is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th April 2019, 07:41 AM   #9
Kestrel
Philosopher
 
Kestrel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Colorado
Posts: 5,975
Paper ballots that can be counted by hand are a good start. Real election security requires one additional step.

Require a statistical audit of the election results. If the margin of victory in a statewide race was 10%, a hand count of 100 randomly selected ballots would be enough to confirm the winner. A race with a margin of 3% would require a hand count of about 2,000 randomly selected ballots.
Kestrel is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th April 2019, 07:47 AM   #10
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
 
TragicMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 51,283
Random voting: 100 people are randomly selected by a computer, and they alone get to vote. A great saving of time and money.
__________________
You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.
TragicMonkey is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th April 2019, 08:54 AM   #11
crescent
Illuminator
 
crescent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 3,151
Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
We hold barbecues at polling places.
Originally Posted by Kestrel View Post
Paper ballots... are a good start.
There are many politicians who would like that sort of barbecue.
crescent is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th April 2019, 10:15 AM   #12
catsmate
No longer the 1
 
catsmate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 21,080
Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
Machines are acceptable iff there is a clearly printed paper ballot in addition, and this has precedence.
__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
catsmate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th April 2019, 11:54 AM   #13
shemp
a flimsy character...perfidious and despised
 
shemp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: People's Democratic Republic of Planet X
Posts: 31,741
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Random voting: 100 people are randomly selected by a computer, and they alone get to vote. A great saving of time and money.
Even better:

Random voting: Each voter flips a coin or rolls a die to determine who they vote for!
__________________
"Shemp, you are the one fixed point in an ever-changing universe." - Beady
"I don't want to live in a world without shemp." - Quarky
"Real name? Xavier Jorge Gladdius Horatio McShrimp. No wonder he goes by shemp." - wasapi
"...just as a magnet attracts iron filings, Trump shemp attracts, and is attracted to, louts." - George Will
shemp is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th April 2019, 12:10 PM   #14
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
 
TragicMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 51,283
Originally Posted by shemp View Post
Even better:

Random voting: Each voter flips a coin or rolls a die to determine who they vote for!
They already do that.
__________________
You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.
TragicMonkey is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th April 2019, 12:16 PM   #15
Senex
Philosopher
 
Senex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: School for Rumpology, CT
Posts: 5,834
This is what happened last time.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
Senex is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th April 2019, 12:56 PM   #16
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 38,342
Originally Posted by Kestrel View Post
Paper ballots that can be counted by hand are a good start. Real election security requires one additional step.

Require a statistical audit of the election results. If the margin of victory in a statewide race was 10%, a hand count of 100 randomly selected ballots would be enough to confirm the winner. A race with a margin of 3% would require a hand count of about 2,000 randomly selected ballots.
Statistical audit?

There's three kinds of lies, isn't there? Lies, damn lies, and statistics? Something like that?

Government should not reduce to statistical shenanigans.
theprestige is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th April 2019, 04:16 PM   #17
Norman Alexander
Philosopher
 
Norman Alexander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 6,203
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Statistical audit?

There's three kinds of lies, isn't there? Lies, damn lies, and statistics? Something like that?

Government should not reduce to statistical shenanigans.
I would hardly think that basic 1+1 counting is "statistical shenanigans".
__________________
...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornetsí nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015
Norman Alexander is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th April 2019, 08:04 AM   #18
Donal
Illuminator
 
Donal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,872
Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
I would hardly think that basic 1+1 counting is "statistical shenanigans".
Don't go trying to bring math into that. Its the Devil's language.
Donal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th April 2019, 08:11 AM   #19
ahhell
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 2,584
Voting machines, ok so long as there is a paper back up.

Compulsory voting, no.

Automatic registration, hell no, though it pretty much exists everywhere I've lived.

Rank choice voting, I like that idea a lot.
ahhell is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th April 2019, 08:17 AM   #20
Jack by the hedge
Safely Ignored
 
Jack by the hedge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 9,701
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Random voting: 100 people are randomly selected by a computer, and they alone get to vote. A great saving of time and money.
Anybody want to buy a rigged random selection computer?
Jack by the hedge is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th April 2019, 08:18 AM   #21
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 38,342
Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
I would hardly think that basic 1+1 counting is "statistical shenanigans". : rolleyes :
Kestrel isn't describing simple arithmetic. He literally proposed a statistical audit. "Rolleyes" indeed.
theprestige is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th April 2019, 08:23 AM   #22
Donal
Illuminator
 
Donal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,872
Make Election Day a federal Holiday on the first Monday of November

Automatic registration of everyone over 18

Voting Machines that produce a paper receipt and are audited before and immediately after every election. And a few randomly selected during the election (I know that will slow some things down, but I'd say maintaining the integrity of the vote is worth it).

Recounts for any margin under 5%

Rank choice voting with automatic run off

No indication of party on the ballot. Randomly change the order candidates appear on each ballot so people just can't go straight down the ticket without knowing who they are selecting

No announcing totals until the polls have closed

Free BBQ for all

Last edited by Donal; 15th April 2019 at 08:25 AM.
Donal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th April 2019, 08:32 AM   #23
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 38,342
Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Machines are acceptable iff there is a clearly printed paper ballot in addition, and this has precedence.
Double effort, double cost. Which kind of defeats the purpose.

The real problem with hackable voting machines is that you get what you pay for. No voting district is going to pay Diebold top-dollar for a truly secure voting machine. The way people talk about voting machines, they probably should be as secure as ATMs. But the fact is, they're not, because no voting district has the money to pay for ATM-tier voting machines.

What they have instead is a system of custody and oversight at the polls, which they assure us is sufficient to secure paper ballots, and which they assure us is similarly sufficient to secure voting machines. This is what allows them to buy voting machines they can actually afford.

And maybe they're not wrong.

Winning an election by hacking voting machines requires certain things:
- You have to know which district(s) you need to hack.
- You have to know how to hack the machine(s) in those districts.
- You have to have undetected access to the machine(s) in those districts.
- You have to be able to change the vote count(s) in a way that's both plausible and decisive.*

*You can omit the "decisive" requirement, as long as you're prepared to weather the recounts, the suspicions, the audits, etc. But this requires that you be very confident that your hacking won't be detected, even under heightened scrutiny.

I could see a corrupt mayor or state legislator, needing to flip only the machines in a single district, maybe seeing value in "hacking the vote". But for nationwide - or even statewide - races, there's probably too many voting districts and too much variance between them, for a direct hack of voting machines to be worth the effort.

Even if Rahm Emmanuel had gone to Hillary Clinton in 2016 and told her, "I can guarantee you Illinois", it still wouldn't have solved her problem in other states, and wouldn't have been worth owing a favor to Emmanuel.

That's why both the GOP and the DNC are experimenting with Russian troll-style social media campaigns, for the larger races. For the smaller races, I assume it's the same local machine politics and corruption it's always been. Just with more chrome highlights.
theprestige is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th April 2019, 08:34 AM   #24
ahhell
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 2,584
Originally Posted by Donal View Post
Make Election Day a federal Holiday on the first Monday of November

Automatic registration of everyone over 18

Voting Machines that produce a paper receipt and are audited before and immediately after every election. And a few randomly selected during the election (I know that will slow some things down, but I'd say maintaining the integrity of the vote is worth it).

Recounts for any margin under 5%

Rank choice voting with automatic run off

No indication of party on the ballot. Randomly change the order candidates appear on each ballot so people just can't go straight down the ticket without knowing who they are selecting

No announcing totals until the polls have closed

Free BBQ for all
Mostly no to hell no but this is interesting and I've never heard someone suggest it before:
Originally Posted by Donal View Post
No indication of party on the ballot. Randomly change the order candidates appear on each ballot so people just can't go straight down the ticket without knowing who they are selecting
I kind of like it.
ahhell is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th April 2019, 08:37 AM   #25
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 38,342
Originally Posted by Donal View Post
Make Election Day a federal Holiday on the first Monday of November
Yes.

Quote:
Automatic registration of everyone over 18
No.

Quote:
Voting Machines that produce a paper receipt and are audited before and immediately after every election. And a few randomly selected during the election (I know that will slow some things down, but I'd say maintaining the integrity of the vote is worth it).
Slow things down and increase cost, but I agree it's worth it.

Quote:
Recounts for any margin under 5%
Automatic recounts under a certain margin? Yes. That specific margin? Maybe.

Quote:
Rank choice voting with automatic run off
No.

Quote:
No indication of party on the ballot.
No.

Quote:
Randomly change the order candidates appear on each ballot so people just can't go straight down the ticket without knowing who they are selecting
No.

Quote:
No announcing totals until the polls have closed
Yes.

Quote:
Free BBQ for all
There's no such thing as "free". Figure out who's paying for it, and why, and then we'll talk.
theprestige is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th April 2019, 08:46 AM   #26
Upchurch
Papa Funkosophy
 
Upchurch's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 31,767
Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Machines are acceptable iff there is a clearly printed paper ballot in addition, and this has precedence.
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Double effort, double cost. Which kind of defeats the purpose.
This is commonly known as "building the world's most expensive pencil."
__________________
"There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -- Sherlock Holmes.
"Itís easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." -- Mark Twain, maybe.
Upchurch is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th April 2019, 08:59 AM   #27
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 38,342
Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
This is commonly known as "building the world's most expensive pencil."
Pretty much.

The thing is, every school child is trained to fill in bubbles on a Scan-Tron form. Paper ballots with machine counting and human oversight seems like a about as cromulent a system as is needed.
theprestige is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th April 2019, 09:11 AM   #28
Trebuchet
Penultimate Amazing
 
Trebuchet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: The Great Northwet
Posts: 22,893
Originally Posted by Donal View Post
Make Election Day a federal Holiday on the first Monday of November.
No. Everyone will leave town for the long weekend and not vote.
__________________
Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant.
Trebuchet is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th April 2019, 09:20 AM   #29
ahhell
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 2,584
Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
No. Everyone will leave town for the long weekend and not vote.
Hm, this has convinced me to reconsider. The the crowd that really doesn't give a damn select themselves out of voting. I could buy into that. This would have tendency to skew the actual voters to be poorer. So, sort of a progressive voting scheme.
ahhell is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th April 2019, 09:21 AM   #30
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 38,342
Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
No. Everyone will leave town for the long weekend and not vote.
A Tuesday holiday makes more sense. Or a Saturday voting day.

But I'm one of those people who thinks that it's a perfectly cromulent use of your voting privilege, to look at the situation and decide that abstention (and spending the day doing something more important) is sufficient.
theprestige is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th April 2019, 09:22 AM   #31
Donal
Illuminator
 
Donal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,872
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Yes.


No.


Slow things down and increase cost, but I agree it's worth it.


Automatic recounts under a certain margin? Yes. That specific margin? Maybe.


No.


No.


No.


Yes.


There's no such thing as "free". Figure out who's paying for it, and why, and then we'll talk.
So an informed electorate with more choices is bad?
Donal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th April 2019, 09:37 AM   #32
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 38,342
Originally Posted by Donal View Post
So an informed electorate with more choices is bad?
Nothing on that list has to do with increasing voter information. Maybe one thing on that list has anything to do with more choices.

And neither "informed electorate" nor "more choices" have anything to do with voting machine security, which is the actual topic of the thread.

Rule of So in full effect!

---

ETA: I'm also switching my first "yes" to a "no". Instead of a Monday holiday, either a Tuesday holiday or a Saturday voting day.

Last edited by theprestige; 15th April 2019 at 09:38 AM.
theprestige is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th April 2019, 09:47 AM   #33
Donal
Illuminator
 
Donal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,872
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Nothing on that list has to do with increasing voter information. Maybe one thing on that list has anything to do with more choices.

And neither "informed electorate" nor "more choices" have anything to do with voting machine security, which is the actual topic of the thread.

Rule of So in full effect!

---

ETA: I'm also switching my first "yes" to a "no". Instead of a Monday holiday, either a Tuesday holiday or a Saturday voting day.
Except more voters makes vote rigging a more expensive and less efficient proposition. So either you have to try another way than jacking a bunch of voting machines/ballot boxes, or you have to employ a lot more people to do it.
Donal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th April 2019, 09:59 AM   #34
ServiceSoon
Graduate Poster
 
ServiceSoon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,493
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Random voting: 100 people are randomly selected by a computer, and they alone get to vote. A great saving of time and money.
Sortition: random representation.
ServiceSoon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th April 2019, 10:01 AM   #35
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 38,342
Originally Posted by Donal View Post
Except more voters makes vote rigging a more expensive and less efficient proposition.
How so?
theprestige is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th April 2019, 10:06 AM   #36
ahhell
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 2,584
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
A Tuesday holiday makes more sense. Or a Saturday voting day.

But I'm one of those people who thinks that it's a perfectly cromulent use of your voting privilege, to look at the situation and decide that abstention (and spending the day doing something more important) is sufficient.
Its occasionally your duty as citizen to not vote. If you are especially ignorant or unconcerned about the outcome, you shouldn't vote.

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
How so?
More voters means you have to fake more votes to shift an election. Not really true if you can actually hack machines but still.

Also, I could be convinced that a lottery would be the best way to pick representatives or maybe candidates.

Last edited by ahhell; 15th April 2019 at 10:09 AM.
ahhell is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th April 2019, 10:13 AM   #37
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 85,062
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The real problem with hackable voting machines is that you get what you pay for. No voting district is going to pay Diebold top-dollar for a truly secure voting machine. The way people talk about voting machines, they probably should be as secure as ATMs. But the fact is, they're not, because no voting district has the money to pay for ATM-tier voting machines.
Then go back to paper.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th April 2019, 10:14 AM   #38
Donal
Illuminator
 
Donal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,872
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
How so?
It makes each vote less consequential. The significant each vote is, the less value there is in warping individual ballots/boxes. So, either you expand your operation, which carries a world of security risks, or you move on to another method. Something crazy like "use policies that appeal to the majority of voters".
Donal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th April 2019, 10:15 AM   #39
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 38,342
Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
Its occasionally your duty as citizen to not vote. If you are especially ignorant or unconcerned about the outcome, you shouldn't vote.
I agree with the principle, but find the pejorative tone repugnant.

Quote:
More voters means you have to fake more votes to shift an election.
It depends if you're worried about a recount. If you can fake the vote counts without having to worry about the ballots, then flipping 100k votes is no more difficult than flipping 100 votes.

Quote:
Not really true if you can actually hack machines but still.
True.

Quote:
Also, I could be convinced that a lottery would be the best way to pick representatives or maybe candidates.
So could I.
theprestige is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th April 2019, 10:43 AM   #40
ahhell
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 2,584
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I agree with the principle, but find the pejorative tone repugnant.
Wasn't meant pejoratively, I have been especially ignorant and especially unconcerned with the outcome of elections in my life. Chose not to vote in several elections as a student entirely because I knew I wasn't going to be in the same town come graduation and just didn't care enough about the long term future of that particular city while also not really knowing enough about my former home to cast an informed vote.

Last edited by ahhell; 15th April 2019 at 10:44 AM.
ahhell is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:17 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.