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Old 24th March 2019, 03:45 PM   #1561
cullennz
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Originally Posted by banquetbear View Post
...great rebuttal there mate. Excellent work. 10 out of 10. Well done, go straight to the head of the class.
Well it is

I work in a place with a load of women.

At one stage I was the only bloke

A lot of them wore scarves on Friday and it was by far and away zero to do with fear.

I should know.

I had listen to them blabbing on about it for about 4 days
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Old 24th March 2019, 03:48 PM   #1562
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Well it is

I work in a place with a load of women.

At one stage I was the only bloke

A lot of them wore scarves on Friday and it was by far and away zero to do with fear.

I should know.

I had listen to them blabbing on about it for about 4 days
...you worked in a place with a load of Muslim women?

Really? What was it that they "blabbed on about" for the last 4 days?
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Old 24th March 2019, 03:49 PM   #1563
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Originally Posted by banquetbear View Post
...you worked in a place with a load of Muslim women?

Really? What was it that they "blabbed on about" for the last 4 days?

No I don't

Try re-reading my post
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Old 24th March 2019, 03:54 PM   #1564
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
No I don't

Try re-reading my post
...I don't need to re-read your post.

Perhaps you need to re-read mine.

I know what you said.

If you haven't been listening to Muslim women over the last 4 days then what the **** are you talking about and how does it relate to what I said? I'm absolutely sure that the non-Muslim women you've been listening too over the last 4 days have not told you what it is like to live and exist as a Muslim in New Zealand society. So your anecdote is mildly interesting, but not related to anything I wrote in my post.
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Old 24th March 2019, 04:10 PM   #1565
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
...ETA It is another example of women treated as inferior by the religion because head coverings are obviously optional for males.
While visiting a monastery in Greece, men were required to cover their bare legs. Light trousers were provided if you only had shorts.
Women were required to cover bare shoulders.

This was not optional.

I guess the Greeks are more progressive and feel both sexes as inferior.
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Old 24th March 2019, 04:10 PM   #1566
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Originally Posted by banquetbear View Post
...I don't need to re-read your post.

Perhaps you need to re-read mine.

I know what you said.

If you haven't been listening to Muslim women over the last 4 days then what the **** are you talking about and how does it relate to what I said? I'm absolutely sure that the non-Muslim women you've been listening too over the last 4 days have not told you what it is like to live and exist as a Muslim in New Zealand society. So your anecdote is mildly interesting, but not related to anything I wrote in my post.
I was talking about the highlighted bit

Which is why I highlighted it

You are claiming many of the non- Muslim wore it out of fear.

a) What evidence do you have that non-Muslim women wore it out of fear
b) Fear of what exactly?
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Old 24th March 2019, 04:14 PM   #1567
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
I was talking about the highlighted bit

Which is why I highlighted it

You are claiming many of the non- Muslim wore it out of fear.

a) What evidence do you have that non-Muslim women wore it out of fear
b) Fear of what exactly?
...that isn't what I said.

For context, read the rest of the post. You know, the bit that you didn't highlight. The bit where I talked about "who was in fear." The bit where I explained of what they were "in fear of."
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Old 24th March 2019, 04:23 PM   #1568
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Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
While visiting a monastery in Greece, men were required to cover their bare legs. Light trousers were provided if you only had shorts.
Women were required to cover bare shoulders.

This was not optional.

I guess the Greeks are more progressive and feel both sexes as inferior.
If the men were also required to have covered shoulders and the women to cover their legs then I would consider this to be a good example of a religion treating everyone as equals. No inferiority at all.

This is an example of the requirements of a certain monastery. It has nothing to do with "the Greeks" who asks understand to be a fairly progressive society.
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Old 24th March 2019, 04:28 PM   #1569
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Are local customs largely secular or do they predominantly exist because of religion?

Are local customs local, or do they apply to the entire area identified as Persia? An area that predominantly follows the tenets and customs of Islam?

I provided some possible answers to the question you asked. I think there is some truth to all the answers, and it will vary between individual women.

Does your friend ask everyone to cover their heads or just the women? From the pictures you posted it appears that all the women use the same type of traditional head covering while the men who do cover their heads use a variety of head covering that are in no way connected to local customs. Playing baseball is not a Persian custom.

Women are treated as second class in most major religions, Islam included. To call this "bollocks" regarding Islam is denial of reality. The primary reason the women in your photos are wearing head coverings in deference to religion. A religion that does not consider them equal to men.
If you look at local non Islamic religions e.g. Judaism many of the customs are similar. Historically ancient Greece was part of Asia-minor, and in pre-christian Greece women were not allowed out of the house unescorted and were pretty well restricted to the house. I think that what is seen as religious is perpetuation of local pre-Islamic customs. Religions have a way of freezing time. Orthodox Jews wear fashions related to the 19 century Eastern Europe, the Amish take technology from the 18 century. Catholic church vestments are mediaeval. What the Q'ran says about these things is relatively little, most is tradition. What is decent and modest to wear does vary, I don't know if it is really true that a glimpse of a ladies ankle was once shocking and that covers were put on table legs but all societies enforce 'decency', anthropologists right books on this stuff (e.g. Mary Douglas), often societal norms are clothed in religious terms. A few years ago it would have been unacceptable for any woman to enter a christian church bare headed.
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Old 24th March 2019, 04:39 PM   #1570
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Originally Posted by banquetbear View Post
...what is "bollocks" is the claim that "it is another example of women treated as inferior by the religion because head coverings are obviously optional for males". In New Zealand head covering for woman are obviously optional as well. In New Zealand you cannot be compelled to cover your head. And in New Zealand many woman choose to cover their heads, and many choose to not do this. Women have agency, and if they choose to cover their head why do you have a problem with that?



Women are treated as second class not just in religion: but everywhere. Everywhere you look. In America women routinely get thrown in jail for having consensual (paid) sex with somebody else. Don't you find that ****** up?

The decision made by many women in New Zealand (including our Prime Minister) to wear a head covering was not just about respect. It wasn't just about solidarity.

It was about fear.

This last week we've had many Muslim women come forward and tell their stories about fear. Not fear of what would happen if they "didn't cover their heads." But the fear of simply walking down the street. They shared their experiences of abuse, of hatred. Because of the clothes that they wear, and often because of the colour of their skin.

I was cynical at first when I heard about the plans to "#wearahijab" for a day. But on reflection I got it wrong. The clear message we got from most of the Muslim community was that this is helping them heal. It is helping them feel more safe. And this close to the shootings I don't think that there is anything more important to worry about right now.

I won't pretend that as a religion Islam doesn't have to make a lot of changes in the way they treat women. But the changes (in New Zealand) that have to be made in a way echo the way women are (generally) treated on the Marae. I know of many young, progressive Muslim women who will be fighting for those changes, and by shining a spotlight on the religion in the way that New Zealand has embraced this week we have made the job easier for them. Its a problem. But it isn't a problem that will get fixed by "pointing at them and screeching." Its a problem that will get fixed by rejecting the culture of hate that prompted the shooting in the first place, that pushes the religion "into hiding" so we don't really understand or know what is happening. It will be fixed by empowering those that are in the position to make that change.

So you can keep on "pointing and screeching" all you like. Its all just noise to me now. It makes me sad in a way, but then I remember that I live in a country that collectively reacted in a way to this tragedy that supported and cared for the people that were most vulnerable, I remember how lucky I am to have been born in this country, and I feel just a little bit less sad.
I had written a fairly detailed reply to this. Then it occurred to me that it was not worth the effort to respond to a person who completely misunderstood my posts and my position to the point of calling it "pointing and screeching".

For the rest of NZ including all your Muslim residents, I repeat what I posted above:

I am truly sorry that this awful event occurred. You all have my complete and utter sympathy. I sincerely hope that this terrible type of event never happens again in your country or any other country, and to adherents of the Muslim religion, any other religion, and even to a group of nonreligious. Violence is atrocious in all its forms.

The one thing I will NOT do to show support for your country and the affected families is display the symbols of any religion.
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Old 24th March 2019, 04:41 PM   #1571
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Amazing how we've had 50 people killed because they were Muslims yet we need to discuss in this thread how terrible Islam is. You'd almost think some people supported the killing of the Muslims or that because other Muslims are bad we shouldn't be condemning these killings....
Facts can be inconvenient sometimes, and it's sad you use that as a basis for the huge pathetic strawman you posit here.

If you haven't noticed, we are not at a funeral for a victim of this horrible event. We are on a niche, obscure internet message board supposedly dedicated to critical thinking. I would expect all aspects being fair game for discussion here as long as they are factual.
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Old 24th March 2019, 05:12 PM   #1572
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
If you look at local non Islamic religions e.g. Judaism many of the customs are similar. Historically ancient Greece was part of Asia-minor, and in pre-christian Greece women were not allowed out of the house unescorted and were pretty well restricted to the house. I think that what is seen as religious is perpetuation of local pre-Islamic customs. Religions have a way of freezing time. Orthodox Jews wear fashions related to the 19 century Eastern Europe, the Amish take technology from the 18 century. Catholic church vestments are mediaeval. What the Q'ran says about these things is relatively little, most is tradition. What is decent and modest to wear does vary, I don't know if it is really true that a glimpse of a ladies ankle was once shocking and that covers were put on table legs but all societies enforce 'decency', anthropologists right books on this stuff (e.g. Mary Douglas), often societal norms are clothed in religious terms. A few years ago it would have been unacceptable for any woman to enter a christian church bare headed.
There is a lot of truth to this and I generally agree. However my question that you responded to was largely rhetorical. Smartcooky's post was making a connection with non-muslim women wearing headscarfs. I was trying to get him to clarify his point.
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Old 24th March 2019, 05:13 PM   #1573
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Originally Posted by banquetbear View Post
...what is "bollocks" is the claim that "it is another example of women treated as inferior by the religion because head coverings are obviously optional for males". In New Zealand head covering for woman are obviously optional as well. In New Zealand you cannot be compelled to cover your head. And in New Zealand many woman choose to cover their heads, and many choose to not do this. Women have agency, and if they choose to cover their head why do you have a problem with that?



Women are treated as second class not just in religion: but everywhere. Everywhere you look. In America women routinely get thrown in jail for having consensual (paid) sex with somebody else. Don't you find that ****** up?

The decision made by many women in New Zealand (including our Prime Minister) to wear a head covering was not just about respect. It wasn't just about solidarity.

It was about fear.

This last week we've had many Muslim women come forward and tell their stories about fear. Not fear of what would happen if they "didn't cover their heads." But the fear of simply walking down the street. They shared their experiences of abuse, of hatred. Because of the clothes that they wear, and often because of the colour of their skin.

I was cynical at first when I heard about the plans to "#wearahijab" for a day. But on reflection I got it wrong. The clear message we got from most of the Muslim community was that this is helping them heal. It is helping them feel more safe. And this close to the shootings I don't think that there is anything more important to worry about right now.


I won't pretend that as a religion Islam doesn't have to make a lot of changes in the way they treat women. But the changes (in New Zealand) that have to be made in a way echo the way women are (generally) treated on the Marae. I know of many young, progressive Muslim women who will be fighting for those changes, and by shining a spotlight on the religion in the way that New Zealand has embraced this week we have made the job easier for them. Its a problem. But it isn't a problem that will get fixed by "pointing at them and screeching." Its a problem that will get fixed by rejecting the culture of hate that prompted the shooting in the first place, that pushes the religion "into hiding" so we don't really understand or know what is happening. It will be fixed by empowering those that are in the position to make that change.

So you can keep on "pointing and screeching" all you like. Its all just noise to me now. It makes me sad in a way, but then I remember that I live in a country that collectively reacted in a way to this tragedy that supported and cared for the people that were most vulnerable, I remember how lucky I am to have been born in this country, and I feel just a little bit less sad.
This is very true.

I do wear a headscarf at times (I know hypocritical given my post above). I would always wear it if going to the Mosque with my parents. (As an atheist, I would never go myself.) There has always been racist comments but recently some comments are more pointed to what you wear than they used to be.

Men feel justified in commenting on women appearance. Big boobs, no boobs, hairy arm pits, head scarves, hairstyle, short skirts.

I appreciate the political symbolism and solidarity, but I chose not to wear a headscarf, because I don't want to be defined by an article of clothing.
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Old 24th March 2019, 06:09 PM   #1574
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What a drag

That bit about covering table legs for modesty turns out to be an urban myth.

If that were true, it would be funny af.
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Old 24th March 2019, 06:12 PM   #1575
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Originally Posted by banquetbear View Post
...what is "bollocks" is the claim that "it is another example of women treated as inferior by the religion because head coverings are obviously optional for males". In New Zealand head covering for woman are obviously optional as well. In New Zealand you cannot be compelled to cover your head. And in New Zealand many woman choose to cover their heads, and many choose to not do this. Women have agency, and if they choose to cover their head why do you have a problem with that?



Women are treated as second class not just in religion: but everywhere. Everywhere you look. In America women routinely get thrown in jail for having consensual (paid) sex with somebody else. Don't you find that ****** up?

The decision made by many women in New Zealand (including our Prime Minister) to wear a head covering was not just about respect. It wasn't just about solidarity.

It was about fear.

This last week we've had many Muslim women come forward and tell their stories about fear. Not fear of what would happen if they "didn't cover their heads." But the fear of simply walking down the street. They shared their experiences of abuse, of hatred. Because of the clothes that they wear, and often because of the colour of their skin.

I was cynical at first when I heard about the plans to "#wearahijab" for a day. But on reflection I got it wrong. The clear message we got from most of the Muslim community was that this is helping them heal. It is helping them feel more safe. And this close to the shootings I don't think that there is anything more important to worry about right now.

I won't pretend that as a religion Islam doesn't have to make a lot of changes in the way they treat women. But the changes (in New Zealand) that have to be made in a way echo the way women are (generally) treated on the Marae. I know of many young, progressive Muslim women who will be fighting for those changes, and by shining a spotlight on the religion in the way that New Zealand has embraced this week we have made the job easier for them. Its a problem. But it isn't a problem that will get fixed by "pointing at them and screeching." Its a problem that will get fixed by rejecting the culture of hate that prompted the shooting in the first place, that pushes the religion "into hiding" so we don't really understand or know what is happening. It will be fixed by empowering those that are in the position to make that change.

So you can keep on "pointing and screeching" all you like. Its all just noise to me now. It makes me sad in a way, but then I remember that I live in a country that collectively reacted in a way to this tragedy that supported and cared for the people that were most vulnerable, I remember how lucky I am to have been born in this country, and I feel just a little bit less sad.
This is an outstanding post that nails all the points squarely on the head, and from a poster that I don't always agree with.

Most New Zealanders responded to the mass murder of 50 of its citizens with kindness, understanding, compassion and solidarity with the victims' families. Their government reacts by taking steps to minimize the chances of it happening again.

Most Americans respond the same way, but unfortunately there is a large minority that respond with platitudes such as "thoughts and prayers" and then do exactly nothing about it, and react angrily at any thought that their government might take some of their precious toys away.

Memo to President Trump: Watch what our Prime Minister has done and learn from it. THAT is how a national leader is supposed to act in the face of a tragedy.
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Old 24th March 2019, 06:26 PM   #1576
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Originally Posted by banquetbear View Post

The decision made by many women in New Zealand (including our Prime Minister) to wear a head covering was not just about respect. It wasn't just about solidarity.

It was about fear.
It was about submission. White women are growing tired of the effeminate bugmen that permeate the West. It's only natural they start showing affinity to men who at least have some conviction.
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Old 24th March 2019, 06:31 PM   #1577
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Memo to President Trump: Watch what our Prime Minister has done and learn from it. THAT is how a national leader is supposed to act in the face of a tragedy.
Lol. I love these "look at this breast feeding woman wearing a hijab that's what a real leader looks like" posts. Sure, a small island nation less populace than Cook County is totally comparable to a global hegemony with a population of 330,000,000.
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Old 24th March 2019, 06:40 PM   #1578
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So two things.

1) I have worked with a number of Muslim women here in New Zealand, women that came here from across the Muslim world. Some wore a head scarf, others didn't, it seems to be a personal thing in countries such as New Zealand. I have also worked with Exclusive Brethren, and some the women wore head scarves all the time, others didn't. I have also been in a number of churches where many of the women were hats or coverings, and many didn't. The same thing seems to apply to them all, it's a choice that some follow and some don't.

2) I'm going to point put that by tradition in Maori society, that when they are meeting together the women sit at the back while the men sit at the front. Sop all this hand whinging over the Muslim population doing the same, especially by people outside of NZ, I seriously, and politely, suggest you go stick your head in a bucket, then go and fix your own countries before telling us what to do in ours.
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Old 24th March 2019, 06:42 PM   #1579
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Sop all this hand whinging over the Muslim population doing the same, especially by people outside of NZ, I seriously, and politely, suggest you go stick your head in a bucket, then go and fix your own countries before telling us what to do in ours.
The most ironic comment I've read on this forum.
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Old 24th March 2019, 06:58 PM   #1580
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
So two things.

1) I have worked with a number of Muslim women here in New Zealand, women that came here from across the Muslim world. Some wore a head scarf, others didn't, it seems to be a personal thing in countries such as New Zealand. I have also worked with Exclusive Brethren, and some the women wore head scarves all the time, others didn't. I have also been in a number of churches where many of the women were hats or coverings, and many didn't. The same thing seems to apply to them all, it's a choice that some follow and some don't.

2) I'm going to point put that by tradition in Maori society, that when they are meeting together the women sit at the back while the men sit at the front. Sop all this hand whinging over the Muslim population doing the same, especially by people outside of NZ, I seriously, and politely, suggest you go stick your head in a bucket, then go and fix your own countries before telling us what to do in ours.
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Old 24th March 2019, 07:06 PM   #1581
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
So two things.

1) I have worked with a number of Muslim women here in New Zealand, women that came here from across the Muslim world. Some wore a head scarf, others didn't, it seems to be a personal thing in countries such as New Zealand. I have also worked with Exclusive Brethren, and some the women wore head scarves all the time, others didn't. I have also been in a number of churches where many of the women were hats or coverings, and many didn't. The same thing seems to apply to them all, it's a choice that some follow and some don't.

2) I'm going to point put that by tradition in Maori society, that when they are meeting together the women sit at the back while the men sit at the front. Sop all this hand whinging over the Muslim population doing the same, especially by people outside of NZ, I seriously, and politely, suggest you go stick your head in a bucket, then go and fix your own countries before telling us what to do in ours.
In NZ it is OK for Muslims to treat their women as second class citizens because Maoris did it first. Is that really the argument you want to make?

In this regard I really don't give a flying **** about your country. I am against women being treated as second class citizens in any country and by any group of people. Choosing to show support for the shooting victims by wearing a symbol of the oppression of women is jot something I support under any circumstances. And I will continue to say so to anyone who argues otherwise.
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Old 24th March 2019, 07:46 PM   #1582
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
In NZ it is OK for Muslims to treat their women as second class citizens because Maoris did it first. Is that really the argument you want to make?

In this regard I really don't give a flying **** about your country. I am against women being treated as second class citizens in any country and by any group of people. Choosing to show support for the shooting victims by wearing a symbol of the oppression of women is jot something I support under any circumstances. And I will continue to say so to anyone who argues otherwise.
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Old 24th March 2019, 07:58 PM   #1583
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
In NZ it is OK for Muslims to treat their women as second class citizens because Maoris did it first. Is that really the argument you want to make?

In this regard I really don't give a flying **** about your country. I am against women being treated as second class citizens in any country and by any group of people. Choosing to show support for the shooting victims by wearing a symbol of the oppression of women is jot something I support under any circumstances. And I will continue to say so to anyone who argues otherwise.
The motivation was good, but the means were poorly chosen. Shoulda worn crescent brooches, or something green, carried placards etc, but not a symbol of oppression or subservience.
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Old 24th March 2019, 08:15 PM   #1584
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
The motivation was good, but the means were poorly chosen. Shoulda worn crescent brooches, or something green, carried placards etc, but not a symbol of oppression or subservience.
That's a good point.
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Old 24th March 2019, 08:20 PM   #1585
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
The motivation was good, but the means were poorly chosen. Shoulda worn crescent brooches, or something green, carried placards etc, but not a symbol of oppression or subservience.
I agree that the motivation was good. The support for the Muslim community was and is a wonderful thing.
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Old 24th March 2019, 08:54 PM   #1586
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
In NZ it is OK for Muslims to treat their women as second class citizens because Maoris did it first. Is that really the argument you want to make?
That is just a complete and intentional misrepresentation what PW said, and you know it.

What the hell is this obsession you have trying to dictate how other cultures function? Just because they do things differently from how YOUR culture does things, or how YOU think they should be doing things, does not mean they are wrong and you are right.

In school assembly, kids are often made to girls on one side of the centre aisle, boys on the other side - OMG!!!!!! SEGREGATION!!!!!!!!!!!! They also have to sit seniors at the front and juniors at the back. OMG!!!!! AGE DISCRIMINATION!!!!!!!!!!

Did it ever occur to you that perhaps many of the women in Islam choose to do what they do? Even in our culture, some women choose to stay at home and be home-makers and child raisers; are they oppressed or second class citizens because they choose to do this? Others choose to have careers - THESE ARE THEIR RIGHTS!

Like Phantom Wolf, I personally know a number of Muslim families. The women are not at all how you seem to imagine them to be. They are not oppressed or downtrodden. Without exception, all the ones I have met are proud of the life they lead.
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Old 24th March 2019, 08:56 PM   #1587
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Choosing to show support for the shooting victims by wearing a symbol of the oppression of women is jot something I support under any circumstances.
You do realise we're talking about head scarves and not the burqa here?

The burqa, I agree, is a symbol of oppression. Head scarves, not so much. Lots of cultures use them, and I think it was already mentioned, several christian sects do as well. Christ, my mum used to wear one in the '60s and she was sure as hell not oppressed.

I love your attempt by any means at all to cast something that might appease your faux outrage.

Maybe a nice hot cup of tea will help? (since Douglas Adams was mentioned)
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Old 24th March 2019, 09:00 PM   #1588
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Meanwhile, getting back to the actual subject, the Tarrant's murder spree, I think I mentioned on about Page 1 that there would be an official inquiry into how our Keystone Cops Intelligence Agencies missed him.

Indeed there is, with a Royal Commission announced today.

(Has anyone noticed that every official announcement on the subject is accompanied by a proper sign language speaker, who signs simultaneously? Anyone know if any other countries do that? Inclusive, you see.)

And one for the conspiracy theorists, with every cop in the country currently being armed for an indefinite period.
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Old 24th March 2019, 09:19 PM   #1589
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post

In school assembly, kids are often made to girls on one side of the centre aisle, boys on the other side - OMG!!!!!! SEGREGATION!!!!!!!!!!!! They also have to sit seniors at the front and juniors at the back. OMG!!!!! AGE DISCRIMINATION!!!!!!!!!!
The amount of straw in your bluster in stupefying.

Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Did it ever occur to you that perhaps many of the women in Islam choose to do what they do?
Does it ever occur to you that many don't and that's the problem? And not having a choice isn't as black/white and easily identifiable as it may seem. (Though sometimes it is, see link below)

Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Like Phantom Wolf, I personally know a number of Muslim families. The women are not at all how you seem to imagine them to be. They are not oppressed or downtrodden. Without exception, all the ones I have met are proud of the life they lead.
Cool story. Here's another one:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...=.a6547aae7e4a
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Old 24th March 2019, 09:29 PM   #1590
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
The motivation was good, but the means were poorly chosen. Shoulda worn crescent brooches, or something green, carried placards etc, but not a symbol of oppression or subservience.
What a load of sanctimonious, ignorant claptrap!

I offer you the chance to educate yourself by reading this. I doubt you will; most people with your attitude don't have the courage to attempt to learn about "the other"... they just want to "point and screech"

https://unu.edu/publications/article...-the-west.html

"...veils such as the hijab and burqa increasingly have been (deliberately) the subject of political debates, security concerns and media coverage. In this political discourse, it is Muslim women’s bodies that are subjected to regulation and political actions within Western societies in the name of national security, preserved national identities and gender equality (for example, France bans wearing a burqa or niqab in public spaces).

It is as if there is a hidden global consensus on a critical need to regulate Muslim women’s bodies either because these women are seemingly unable to distinguish what is good for themselves, or because they have been somehow brainwashed and cannot see their own suffering. In short, they are denying Muslim women’s agency — their ability to think and act independently.
"
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Old 24th March 2019, 09:40 PM   #1591
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Originally Posted by Max_mang View Post
So what?

That is Iran, it has nothing to do with this country, but if you want to go that way

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ights-activist

I would advise y'all to read past the headline... FOUR of those facing execution are men!
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Old 24th March 2019, 09:46 PM   #1592
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
You do realise we're talking about head scarves and not the burqa here?
From how he describes it, I would say he doesn't know the difference, but I'll bet as soon as he reads your post, he will have scurried off to Google it, then will come back claiming he knew all along.
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Old 24th March 2019, 09:52 PM   #1593
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
I am against women being treated as second class citizens in any country and by any group of people.
...I look forward to you joining myself and other Social Justice Warriors while we unite to fight the patriarchy.

Quote:
Choosing to show support for the shooting victims by wearing a symbol of the oppression of women is jot something I support under any circumstances.
Here's the thing about symbols though. Symbols aren't an objective thing. They are entirely up to your personal interpretation. They are dependent on (among many other things) your life experiences, on your personal biases, what media you consume and what your parents taught you.

What you saw in New Zealand was a symbol of "oppression": but what I saw (and I live here, so I saw the whole thing go down much closer than you) was a symbol of love, of compassion, of hope, it was a symbol of everything I want our society to be. I've never seen the country more united. And I've lived through the Springbok tour, the Rainbow Warrior, Moutoa Gardens. What happened here had the potential to divide the nation. But we have gotten stronger.

Symbols only have power if you give them that power.

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And I will continue to say so to anyone who argues otherwise.
And we are free to listen to your arguments, examine them with a critical eye, and disregard them.
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Old 24th March 2019, 10:15 PM   #1594
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
What a load of sanctimonious, ignorant claptrap!

I offer you the chance to educate yourself by reading this. I doubt you will; most people with your attitude don't have the courage to attempt to learn about "the other"... they just want to "point and screech"

https://unu.edu/publications/article...-the-west.html

"...veils such as the hijab and burqa increasingly have been (deliberately) the subject of political debates, security concerns and media coverage. In this political discourse, it is Muslim women’s bodies that are subjected to regulation and political actions within Western societies in the name of national security, preserved national identities and gender equality (for example, France bans wearing a burqa or niqab in public spaces).

It is as if there is a hidden global consensus on a critical need to regulate Muslim women’s bodies either because these women are seemingly unable to distinguish what is good for themselves, or because they have been somehow brainwashed and cannot see their own suffering. In short, they are denying Muslim women’s agency — their ability to think and act independently.
"
To treat your knee jerk name calling with respect it doesn’t deserve... there is a genuine debate to be had over whether Muslim women are best served by having burkas banned or not, with good points on both sides. What seems foolish, is for non-Muslim women to cosplay a subservient garb (even a more mild one like a headscarf).
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Old 24th March 2019, 10:28 PM   #1595
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
To treat your knee jerk name calling with respect it doesn’t deserve... there is a genuine debate to be had over whether Muslim women are best served by having burkas banned or not, with good points on both sides. What seems foolish, is for non-Muslim women to cosplay a subservient garb (even a more mild one like a headscarf).

Translation: You have no interest in educating yourself.

Your loss.
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Old 24th March 2019, 10:32 PM   #1596
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Translation: You have no interest in educating yourself.

Your loss.
You realize that is projection, right? I offered a nuanced, balanced point of view and you (multiple times) just respond with name calling.

Maybe try skeptical debate sometime. Maybe on a forum or something?
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Old 24th March 2019, 10:43 PM   #1597
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
Originally Posted by dann View Post
I don't know. I don’t need a ban on criticizing Islam. Why do you think that we need a ban on criticizing Islam?
That question was largely rhetorical and part of a larger idea but to answer it directly. We don't. Hopefully we don't but given the reactions in this thread to ideas like wearing a garment that identifies someone as a member of a religion as a symbol of that religion probably isn't the best idea ( see post 1524 for an example ) it's worth exploring the idea at least.

It's worth exploring what idea?! That nobody at all in this thread has suggested a ban on criticizing any religion? That's really not open for debate. All you need to do is realize that it's a fact.

Quote:
Sure criticizing Islam is bigoted, duh, so is criticizing Christianity. Criticizing Christianity is "old hat" for us atheists but this criticizing Islam, now that seems to light people on fire and there's an awflu lot of willingness to toss those western progressive values under the but in order to not be seen as a "racist"

Why do you think that criticizing Islam is bigoted? Or that criticizing Christianity is? I don't see you guys actually criticizing Islam as a religion. For some reason you all seem to have grown quite fond of Christianity in recent years. Otherwise you wouldn't always use it in comparison to Islam to prove that the latter is not simply a religion, but a (or the) bad religion. No wonder you think that "criticizing Christianity is "old hat"". Old and forgotten. Nowadays, the old atheists resort to criticizing the Muslim infidels - not because they believe in a religion but because they've chosen the wrong religion, the one that suddenly seems to have achieved a monopoly on repressing women according to you guys.

All I see you do is 1) pretend that the rest of us want to ban your right to criticize religion and 2) pretend that we do what you pretend that we do in order "to not be seen as a "racist"". (As if you all didn't already sound like copies of Baylor ...)

Why are you so obsessed with what other people allegedly want to be seen as? Is it because you're afraid of not being seen as racists? Or is it because the anti-Muslim terrorist attack in New Zealand has made it so obvious what all your talk of "western progressive values" is actually about? (Apparently, Breivik didn't make that clear enough for you.)

By the way, the idea of wearing something that represents a persecuted group of people in order to show your solidarity with them isn't new at all. Not even when the symbol has religious connotations:

Quote:
When the Germans ordered Jews in occupied Denmark to identify themselves by wearing armbands with yellow stars during World War II, King Christian X of Denmark and non-Jewish Danes thwarted the order by donning the armbands themselves.
A Star Is Borne (Snopes)

In many ways a beautiful story. "I'm Spartacus!" (But unfortunately just a myth.)
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Old 24th March 2019, 10:46 PM   #1598
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
What seems foolish, is for non-Muslim women to cosplay a subservient garb (even a more mild one like a headscarf).

When did headscarves become "a subservient garb"? When Christian women stopped wearing them? And is it because Christian women used to wear them that you consider them to be only mildly subservient?
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 24th March 2019 at 10:49 PM.
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Old 24th March 2019, 11:39 PM   #1599
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
You realize that is projection, right? I offered a nuanced, balanced point of view and you (multiple times) just respond with name calling.
Your point of view is about as balanced and nuanced as a brick thrown through a lounge window.


If its nuanced and balanced you're looking for, try reading dann's last two posts; its another potential learning opportuntity for y'all !
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Last edited by smartcooky; 24th March 2019 at 11:47 PM.
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Old 24th March 2019, 11:51 PM   #1600
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Your point of view is about as balanced and nuanced as a brick thrown through a lounge window.


If its nuanced and balanced you're looking for, try reading dann's last two posts; its another potential learning opportuntity for y'all !
I'm not seeing the point of this post. The assertion doesn't really help the conversation. Maybe if you explained in what way his view is lacking in nuance or balance that would be more helpful.
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