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Old 25th March 2019, 08:47 PM   #1681
sadhatter
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
I don't really like to point this out because on this site it's so cliche, but correlation doesn't equal causation. Does religiosity cause the unequal treatment of women, or is it just correlated with it? I think there's certainly a valid argument to made that there is at least some causative effect, but you haven't made that argument, and the correlation on it's own isn't convincing.
I think you are being wilfully obtuse when every Abrahamic religion and most others have rules that are damaging to women. As well as the fact that these rules get worse the more fundamentalist the religion and in regions in which said religions hold political power, fundamentalism is the norm rather than the exception.

These are not some out there philosophical concepts, but obvious trends. And ones that were obvious to most posters not that long ago. When the site was about combating the influence of those peddling falsehoods to get people to commit atrocities.
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Old 25th March 2019, 09:17 PM   #1682
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It is now stark that the women left behind after the tragedy are unable to access cash from the bank accounts, or drive, or in many cases speak English.
They were in many ways deprived of the freedoms Jacinda Ardern enjoys.
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Old 25th March 2019, 09:35 PM   #1683
smartcooky
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
Order the societies that treat women the worst.

Notice how all the worst offenders are the most religious.

Do the math.
Promotion in the military?
Class ceilings in business?
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Old 25th March 2019, 10:08 PM   #1684
dann
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Problem I have is that some people here do seem to cut Islam some slack they do not cut other religions.

Who? Where? How?
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 25th March 2019, 10:32 PM   #1685
dann
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Its a general observation. There are levels of bigotry and racism;

The "hard racist/bigot". They are the haters, they aggressively support white supremacists and say that people who support the victims or who would allow brown people to live and work in the country are race traitors. They blame immigrants for their own victimization, and are the most likely to become terrorists.

The "open racist/bigot". They don't like "others" (defined as anyone who is "other" w.r.t. themselves). When when asked they will say so. They think there nothing wrong with racist and religious jokes and memes that rely on bigotry. "....the Jews will not replace us"

The "soft racist/bigot". These are the "fine people on both sides" lot. Intellectual cowards who will never come out and say exactly what they think, because they don't want to actually be pegged as racists even if that is what they, and everyone else knows, they are.

The "covert racist/bigot". These are the dog-whistlers. They try to pretend they are not racists or bigots, and will do and say things that you cannot quite pin down as racism or bigotry, such as being critical of the way one group acts in support of another, victimised group. These are by far the most prevalent ones. Most of them don't even realise that what they are doing is racist or bigoted. I've even caught myself saying things that would put me in this group, particularly when I get into a discussion about the existence gods and deities.

Satisfied?

I think they meant by "Please show where anyone has said such despicable things"

"Please show where anyone has said such despicable things" on this forum

Rather than posting a bunch of your personal broad classifications

But then I could be wrong

No, I think you're right. That's probably what they wanted. However, you are not right about smartcooky's post being his "personal broad classifications". They may be broad, but they aren't so personal that many of us don't recognize them immediately.

And if you want to see where someone has said "such despicable things", I can recommend Baylor's thread Visiting Morocco while being daft, naÔve European girls - and in particular some of the posts that ended up in AAH. (At this point in time they're on p. 2.)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 25th March 2019 at 11:00 PM.
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Old 25th March 2019, 10:55 PM   #1686
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Thanks for the plug. I did make some thought-provoking arguments in that thread.
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Old 25th March 2019, 10:58 PM   #1687
dann
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Thanks for the plug. I did make some thought-provoking arguments in that thread.

Do you need more confirmation than that, cullennz?!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 25th March 2019, 11:10 PM   #1688
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
No, I think you're right. That's probably what they wanted. However, you are not right about smartcooky's post being his "personal broad classifications". They may be broad, but they aren't so personal that many of us don't recognize them immediately.

And if you want to see where someone has said "such despicable things", I can recommend Baylor's thread Visiting Morocco while being daft, naÔve European girls - and in particular some of the posts that ended up in AAH. (At this point in time they're on p. 2.)
I agree with his classifications

Never said I didn't.

But the point was he hasn't given any evidence of his claims in a direct answer post to a post asking if he could give evidence of his claims the place is full racists

Edit: Apologies

His exact claim was "That's what bigots and racists do (and there are probably a lot more of them on this forum than you think). They want to side track the discussion about the evils of white supremacy into a tirade of victim blaming"
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Old 25th March 2019, 11:32 PM   #1689
dann
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Baylor's thread excelled by blaming the victims in the title - and the victims weren't even brown, black or Muslims. The two Scandinavian women were blamed for not being anti-Muslims. And for the same reason I was accused of sympathizing with Islamic terrorists.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 26th March 2019, 12:28 AM   #1690
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
My upbringing was similar to yours to yours. I was born in the 1950s and spent my early years not far from where you did (Cheshunt, Herts is less than 50 miles away). I never saw a dark skinned man until we moved to NZ in the 1960s, he was the school janitor. In those days, Nelson was a virtual enclave of white, middle-class people - it has become the 3rd most diverse city in NZ, and for the better IMO
Given my experience was the opposite of yours, I'm not surprised by your naivete and histrionics regarding race. The attitudes you hold only come from media conditioning and not hard-earned experience.

Last edited by Baylor; 26th March 2019 at 12:29 AM.
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Old 26th March 2019, 12:50 AM   #1691
dann
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So Baylor's experience trumps everybody else's experience.
Could we now get back to what the Muslims experienced in New Zealand at the hands of a white supremacist?
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 26th March 2019 at 02:09 AM.
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Old 26th March 2019, 12:55 AM   #1692
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People with experience are more knowledgeable than those with no experience.
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Old 26th March 2019, 01:16 AM   #1693
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Problem I have is that some people here do seem to cut Islam some slack they do not cut other religions.
Which religions have been criticized other than Islam?
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Old 26th March 2019, 01:33 AM   #1694
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
So Baylor's experience trumps everybody's else's experience.
Could we now get back to what the Muslims experienced in New Zealand at the hands of a white supremacist?
Forgive me if mentioned already

Interesting side note from Aus

Sco' Mo' is threatening jail to social media exec's with things like the video

Election coming up though, so trying to do butch I think, like our friend in Jordan with the Lord of the Rings handle

https://www.cnet.com/news/australia-...ch-executives/
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Last edited by cullennz; 26th March 2019 at 01:34 AM.
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Old 26th March 2019, 02:08 AM   #1695
dann
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Which religions have been criticized other than Islam?

It's just dudalb's attempt to stay 'in the middle', in this case between the Islamophobes and their accusations against their opponents, instead of somewhere between the Islamophobes and the actual critics of Islamophobia. When the Islamophobes accuse their critics of Islamophilia, dudalb is convinced that the middleground is somewhere between the Islamophobes and their delusional ideas about their critics.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 26th March 2019, 02:11 AM   #1696
dann
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Forgive me if mentioned already

Forgive me for correcting my spelling mistake in my own post!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 26th March 2019, 02:19 AM   #1697
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Does it really matter? The inequality exists and it should not.
It matters to questions about how to go about changing that situation.

If the main causative factor is religious belief, then the most effective way to change the situation may be to attempt to lower religiosity (how to do that is another question, but we could look at what factors led to it's decline elsewhere).

If the two are just correlated on the other hand, then the most effective way to decrease that inequality will be an entirely different strategy.
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Old 26th March 2019, 02:25 AM   #1698
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
I think you are being wilfully obtuse when every Abrahamic religion and most others have rules that are damaging to women. As well as the fact that these rules get worse the more fundamentalist the religion and in regions in which said religions hold political power, fundamentalism is the norm rather than the exception.

These are not some out there philosophical concepts, but obvious trends. And ones that were obvious to most posters not that long ago. When the site was about combating the influence of those peddling falsehoods to get people to commit atrocities.
I think to a large extent that these religions have these attributes because they exist within misogynistic cultures, rather than the other way around. People don't actually get their morality from religion, they only use it as a framework from which to justify a morality that they came to through other means.

But there is a degree of oversimplification there, and ideas do affect people. I suspect that you are right that there is some causative influence from religion to the actions of people, at least in so much as it will bring a little more inertia into the system (it takes time for people to change their minds, and once they've justified their viewpoint through religion, it might take longer than otherwise).

My real point wasn't really that you are wrong (and certainly my view may be wrong), only that the evidence you brought to the table didn't demonstrate that conclusion that you made.
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Old 26th March 2019, 03:44 AM   #1699
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
It is now stark that the women left behind after the tragedy are unable to access cash from the bank accounts, or drive, or in many cases speak English.
They were in many ways deprived of the freedoms Jacinda Ardern enjoys.
To turn this upside down, if the women were killed the men would have access to the bank accounts, be driving, and be speaking English.
But in New Zealand right now this asymmetry is of NO ACCOUNT and will not be for a generation.
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Old 26th March 2019, 03:50 AM   #1700
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
To turn this upside down, if the women were killed the men would have access to the bank accounts, be driving, and be speaking English.
But in New Zealand right now this asymmetry is of NO ACCOUNT and will not be for a generation.
What does this have to do with the fact that a white supremacist and terrorist killed 50 muslims?
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Old 26th March 2019, 03:55 AM   #1701
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He claimed the manager said one of the team members were offended by his comments and that Knight-Wagener didn't fit in with the team.

"Loose lips sink ships. It is a fair reason for dismissing someone, in my opinion, but only if it is an ongoing issue," Knight-Wagener said.

"He said he knew as soon as the words came out of his mouth that he'd said the wrong thing.

"I was just remarking on what I'd heard on the news ... and as I said it, I thought it's just appalling the way it sounds as it's coming out of my mouth and I thought I'm gonna stop talking about it." "

This is an appalling response to an erudite man.

RIP free speech in New Zealand, but no doubt the New Zealand prefects on the thread will call me to account.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/...ectid=12216465
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Old 26th March 2019, 03:58 AM   #1702
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
What does this have to do with the fact that a white supremacist and terrorist killed 50 muslims?
What is the point of ISF?
It is of overriding importance that all things are discussed on this forum, which I have come to view as the most liberal board, and where nuance is not demolished by the thundering finger waggers.
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Old 26th March 2019, 04:36 AM   #1703
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Milo Yiannopoulos Fan Loses Job

You forgot this bit:

Quote:
When questioned whether he was a right-wing radical, Knight-Wagener said he wasn't sure what right or left wing was but he was a supporter of Milo Yiannopoulos - a far-right British speaker who was last week banned from Australia after he blamed the Christchurch terror attack on "extremist leftism and barbaric, alien religious cultures".
He said he liked Yiannopoulus due to his opinion which created debates. However, he said he had no problem with Muslims, didn't condone the attack and said people shouldn't be dying.
Tradie's Muslim comments get him axed from new job (NZ Herald, March 26, 2019)

A very "erudite man", indeed!
Yes, that's all white supremacists do: 'create debates'. Except, of course, when they kill people ...
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 26th March 2019 at 05:04 AM.
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Old 26th March 2019, 04:39 AM   #1704
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
What is the point of ISF?
It is of overriding importance that all things are discussed on this forum, which I have come to view as the most liberal board, and where nuance is not demolished by the thundering finger waggers.
Do we need to discuss everything in a thread about a white supremacist terrorist act?

Do you think it's vital that we discuss your problems with Islam in such a thread?
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Old 26th March 2019, 04:59 AM   #1705
dann
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He obviously does, and you're infringing on his freedom of speech if you question it.
A white supremacist attack on Muslims is obviously an occasion for victim blaming.
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/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 26th March 2019, 12:11 PM   #1706
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Which religions have been criticized other than Islam?
You haven't been to the religion section here, have you?
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Old 26th March 2019, 03:55 PM   #1707
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Let the conspiracy theories begin.

Jews outraged after mosque leader blames Mossad for Christchurch attack

ETA: Apparently all manifestos written by homicidal maniacs are not created equal. The difference you ask ?

Manifesto crosses a line that Mein Kampf didn't - Chief Censor David Shanks

Quote:
While Mein Kampf outlines Hitler's desire to see the Jewish people exterminated, it doesn't say how.
What was I saying about news articles upthread ?

Terrorist Attacks by Vehicle Fast Facts

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Old 26th March 2019, 04:24 PM   #1708
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
Wonder why he waited ten days.

Counter theory - ISIS funded him to shoot up the mosques so they could blame it on Israel
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Old 26th March 2019, 07:05 PM   #1709
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
In NZ it is OK for Muslims to treat their women as second class citizens because Maoris did it first. Is that really the argument you want to make?

In this regard I really don't give a flying **** about your country. I am against women being treated as second class citizens in any country and by any group of people. Choosing to show support for the shooting victims by wearing a symbol of the oppression of women is jot something I support under any circumstances. And I will continue to say so to anyone who argues otherwise.
The problem here is that you have run so far up the "progressive" tree that you are failing to see that you are becoming the very thing you object to.

There is exactly no difference between a man telling a women she has to wear a hijab or sit at the back, and a man telling her that she is not allowed to wear a hijab or sit at the back. Both are talking away the woman's advocacy and replacing it with what they think is right.

True progressiveness is when you accept people and their beliefs, regardless of whether you agree with those beliefs yourself.

Progressiveness is not just forcing a different set of rules on people and thus violating their rights in a whole different way.

If you think that allowing people to conduct their religion in a way that is lawful and traditional to them, and not telling people what clothing they can and can't wear is not progressive, and you think that women being seated to the back of a meeting in one particular religion, is treating them like second class citizens, then I have to say, first I am worried should you ever get a hint of power, and secondly you seem to have rather a lack of 1st world problems to deal with. I am sure that without trying very hard you can find a lot of actual real issues where women are being treated as second class citizens without looking very hard, and many of those things will be in your own country.
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Old 26th March 2019, 07:19 PM   #1710
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
The problem here is that you have run so far up the "progressive" tree that you are failing to see that you are becoming the very thing you object to.

There is exactly no difference between a man telling a women she has to wear a hijab or sit at the back, and a man telling her that she is not allowed to wear a hijab or sit at the back. Both are talking away the woman's advocacy and replacing it with what they think is right.

True progressiveness is when you accept people and their beliefs, regardless of whether you agree with those beliefs yourself.

Progressiveness is not just forcing a different set of rules on people and thus violating their rights in a whole different way.

If you think that allowing people to conduct their religion in a way that is lawful and traditional to them, and not telling people what clothing they can and can't wear is not progressive, and you think that women being seated to the back of a meeting in one particular religion, is treating them like second class citizens, then I have to say, first I am worried should you ever get a hint of power, and secondly you seem to have rather a lack of 1st world problems to deal with. I am sure that without trying very hard you can find a lot of actual real issues where women are being treated as second class citizens without looking very hard, and many of those things will be in your own country.
LOL at "true progressive" and the moronic tripe in this post.

Most religions are bigoted and sexist in some form, as a skeptic with 3 daughters (one who happens to be gay) I despise them.

Islam is one of the worst, Christianity not far behind.

A better world has Muslim woman treated the same as men, the best world has no religion at all.

Stop making excuses for idiotic backward thinking, it's embarrassing to read.
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Old 26th March 2019, 07:39 PM   #1711
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
The problem here is that you have run so far up the "progressive" tree that you are failing to see that you are becoming the very thing you object to.
Quote:
There is exactly no difference between a man telling a women she has to wear a hijab or sit at the back, and a man telling her that she is not allowed to wear a hijab or sit at the back. Both are talking away the woman's advocacy and replacing it with what they think is right.
Of course there is no difference. My point is that women should wear what and sit where they damn well please. Men should not be telling women anything.

Quote:
True progressiveness is when you accept people and their beliefs, regardless of whether you agree with those beliefs yourself.

Progressiveness is not just forcing a different set of rules on people and thus violating their rights in a whole different way.

If you think that allowing people to conduct their religion in a way that is lawful and traditional to them, and not telling people what clothing they can and can't wear is not progressive, and you think that women being seated to the back of a meeting in one particular religion, is treating them like second class citizens, then I have to say, first I am worried should you ever get a hint of power, and secondly you seem to have rather a lack of 1st world problems to deal with. I am sure that without trying very hard you can find a lot of actual real issues where women are being treated as second class citizens without looking very hard, and many of those things will be in your own country.
You seem hung up on that word 'progressive'. It has nothing to do with what I am saying. If you want to use a single word that describes my position I suggest 'equality'.

There is no country in the world where women are treated as completely equal to men. Every country needs to improve in this regard.

This thread is about NZ which I believe is a first world country, Yet there are links upthread to information that some widows of the shooting victims do not know how to function in your society without their husbands. This is a direct result of their religion treating them as second class citizens. This is also not the trivial situation you are implying. If you think such conditions in your country are acceptable and do not need to change you are a part of the problem.

Also, what ProBonoShill said.
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Old 26th March 2019, 07:44 PM   #1712
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Originally Posted by ProBonoShill View Post
LOL at "true progressive" and the moronic tripe in this post.

Most religions are bigoted and sexist in some form, as a skeptic with 3 daughters (one who happens to be gay) I despise them.

Islam is one of the worst, Christianity not far behind.

A better world has Muslim woman treated the same as men, the best world has no religion at all.

Stop making excuses for idiotic backward thinking, it's embarrassing to read.
Wow, the irony is amazing, you apparently read my post with so little understanding that you then went on to prove me exactly right.

Consider this for a moment. How is your hatred for the way Religious extremists live and your desire to make laws to force them to live the way you dictate to be right any different from their hatred of the way you live and their desire to make laws to force you to live the way they dictate to be right?
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Old 26th March 2019, 07:56 PM   #1713
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Wow, the irony is amazing, you apparently read my post with so little understanding that you then went on to prove me exactly right.

Consider this for a moment. How is your hatred for the way Religious extremists live and your desire to make laws to force them to live the way you dictate to be right any different from their hatred of the way you live and their desire to make laws to force you to live the way they dictate to be right?
Your nonsensical post is there for all to see, void of logic and skepticism.

Quote:
Consider this for a moment. How is your hatred for the way Religious extremists live and your desire to make laws to force them to live the way you dictate to be right any different from their hatred of the way you live and their desire to make laws to force you to live the way they dictate to be right?
This is quite possibly the most ignorant thing I've ever read here and that's astonishing.

The difference? I believe in a civilized society with equal rights for women and homosexuals.

Are you a poster boy for Saudi Arabia?
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Old 26th March 2019, 08:56 PM   #1714
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Just for fun and relavent to today's discussion on this thread.

I'm currently downloading this documentary for watching later this week.

https://www.theverge.com/2018/1/21/1...google-twitter
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Old 26th March 2019, 11:15 PM   #1715
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post

There is exactly no difference between a man telling a women she has to wear a hijab or sit at the back, and a man telling her that she is not allowed to wear a hijab or sit at the back. Both are talking away the woman's advocacy and replacing it with what they think is right.
I agree with this 100%, in principle. But there comes an issue when women are being forced by their families and communities to, for instance, wear the hijab. It's no longer a personal choice that they are making, but one imposed on them by those around them. When, or at least if, this is happening in your country, do you think that there's a role for government in preventing that oppression, and if so, how?

It reminds me to some extent of the issue of men having multiple wives. In principle it seems like everyone agreed to the situation, so why should government prevent people from making personal choices? In reality you find for instance fundamentalist Mormon communities, where old men force young girls to marry them, and those girls have no real choice in the matter. How do we prevent that sort of oppression? By outlawing what seems at first inspection to be a simple matter of personal choice, but in reality is more complicated than that.

I'm not sure what the right course of action is with respect to hijab, and certainly when it is actually voluntary I don't have any issues with women who choose to wear it, any more than fundamentalist jews who wear their cultural garb. But doesn't society have a duty to protect those women and girls for whom it is not voluntary?
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Old 27th March 2019, 12:56 AM   #1716
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
If that is the direction you need to take the debate in, go for it, but that is not what is happening.

Their extremists inspired other extremists to attack them. Their extremists also run countries without the checks and balances the extremist in chief has. These are important parts in the discussions.
Whatís that got to do with the people killed in the mosques in New Zealand?
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Old 27th March 2019, 01:04 AM   #1717
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Originally Posted by ProBonoShill View Post
Your nonsensical post is there for all to see, void of logic and skepticism.
I'm entirely happy for people to see my posts, I am quite glad they can see yours too and watch the rage in them when the truth is pointed out to you

Quote:
This is quite possibly the most ignorant thing I've ever read here and that's astonishing.

The difference? I believe in a civilized society with equal rights for women and homosexuals.
I never said that you didn't believe in equal rights for women and homosexuals, I'm saying that your ideas are bigoted because you don't believe in religious people having equal rights in pursuing their religion as they see fit. Well actually I didn't say that, you already said it for me.

Your best argument is "But I'm right!" Well guess what, the extremists on the other side think that they are right too, what grants your form of extremism the right to tell others how to live any more than theirs does? The answer is nothing, you're both in the wrong for trying to demand others live your way and in that, both as bad as each other.

Quote:
Are you a poster boy for Saudi Arabia?
Wow, I don't think I have ever managed to see anyone commit three fallacies in a single short sentence before, but you managed it.

1) Ad Hominem - The best you have is to attack me personally? Not only is that a fallacy, but I believe that attacking the poster and not the argument is against the rules here. Seems to be Strike one on your argument

2) Poisoning the Well. You know full well that Saudi Arabian has absolutely zero to do with this discussion. Bringing it in it nothing more than a clumsy and silly attempt to poison the well. Strike Two for your argument.

3) Strawman - Finally you are trying to make my argument that extremists on both sides are as bad as each other into an case of if I refuse to support your extremest views I have to be a supporter of the other side's extremist views. That is clearly not what I am saying and everyone here but apparently you can read that. I'm saying that your form of tyranny is just as bad as their form of tyranny. That no one has any right to make rules and laws that stop others from living as they will, as long as they do so without harm or to other's rights to live as they will.

Yes, that means I am against both those that make it law to force the wearing of religious garb, and those that make it law to prevent the wearing of religious garb. Both are an infringement on people's right to live and dress as they will, and both are tyrannical, bigoted, and wrong. And with that you have Strike Three.
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Old 27th March 2019, 01:11 AM   #1718
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
I agree with this 100%, in principle. But there comes an issue when women are being forced by their families and communities to, for instance, wear the hijab. It's no longer a personal choice that they are making, but one imposed on them by those around them. When, or at least if, this is happening in your country, do you think that there's a role for government in preventing that oppression, and if so, how?

It reminds me to some extent of the issue of men having multiple wives. In principle it seems like everyone agreed to the situation, so why should government prevent people from making personal choices? In reality you find for instance fundamentalist Mormon communities, where old men force young girls to marry them, and those girls have no real choice in the matter. How do we prevent that sort of oppression? By outlawing what seems at first inspection to be a simple matter of personal choice, but in reality is more complicated than that.

I'm not sure what the right course of action is with respect to hijab, and certainly when it is actually voluntary I don't have any issues with women who choose to wear it, any more than fundamentalist jews who wear their cultural garb. But doesn't society have a duty to protect those women and girls for whom it is not voluntary?
You can't solve oppression with more oppression, you can only do it via education. Teaching those that are forcing their women to wear head coverings, regardless of the religion, that they need to allow those women to make the choice of if they would want to do so on their own. By creating a law like France's, all that is happening is that there is now a new and different oppression from a different source. That is no better then what was happening to start with. Why should a women be made a criminal for her choice to wear clothing she wants to wear? That question applies equally to France and places like Saudi Arabia and Iran.

As to the polygamy thing, I believe that in most places it's illegal, so regardless of the membership and such, they are actually breaking a law that wasn't aimed at them when it was set.
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Old 27th March 2019, 02:15 AM   #1719
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
You can't solve oppression with more oppression, you can only do it via education. Teaching those that are forcing their women to wear head coverings, regardless of the religion, that they need to allow those women to make the choice of if they would want to do so on their own. By creating a law like France's, all that is happening is that there is now a new and different oppression from a different source. That is no better then what was happening to start with. Why should a women be made a criminal for her choice to wear clothing she wants to wear? That question applies equally to France and places like Saudi Arabia and Iran.

As to the polygamy thing, I believe that in most places it's illegal, so regardless of the membership and such, they are actually breaking a law that wasn't aimed at them when it was set.
Why aren't polygamy laws oppressive? The logic in the two cases appears to be the same to me.
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Old 27th March 2019, 02:29 AM   #1720
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Why aren't polygamy laws oppressive? The logic in the two cases appears to be the same to me.
Replied here to avoid derail...

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...0#post12646710
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