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Old 27th March 2019, 03:17 AM   #1721
uke2se
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
You haven't been to the religion section here, have you?
In this thread. That's what I was talking about.
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Old 27th March 2019, 05:39 AM   #1722
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I don't think anyone would disagree with what you are saying. There isn't any simple answer or solution. I think all we can do is to try to ensure everyone gets a good balanced education so they know that if they don't follow what person X says or religion X says they can't be forced in our societies to follow that person or religion. It's anything but a perfect solution and where we place lines in legislation and the like is always going to be quite arbitrary and can be challenged and will change over time as cultures and societies change.
That's fair. For instance, when it comes to "gets a good balanced education", homeschooling becomes an issue wherein parents can indoctrinate their children into their religion and ideology without giving them access to outside sources of information. Yet I can see arguments for giving people the freedom to educate their own children in ways that they consider appropriate.

As you say it's complicated, I don't really know where I stand on any of these sorts of issues, and my comment really was meant to convey only that, that I don't think the issue is as simple as either side tends to portray it.
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Old 27th March 2019, 08:16 AM   #1724
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Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
If it holds up, it might be the beginning of the end of the Bannonite "Identitarian" movement.
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Old 27th March 2019, 08:23 AM   #1725
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Wait, What ? Tarrant gave them money ?
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Old 27th March 2019, 12:29 PM   #1726
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Just to get back onto the actual subject for a moment, a lot of schools are holding collections for Chch this week, mostly by having an entirely - but not deliberately - approriate, mufti day.
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Old 27th March 2019, 07:23 PM   #1727
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If there were a time in NZ when you'd expect any person still able to breathe to recognise taking a gun on a plane would require a mass of correct paperwork and check-in procedures, it would be now.

This bloke obviously missed all that: https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/a...ectid=12217211
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Old 27th March 2019, 07:50 PM   #1728
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So did he forget to declare the rifle in his checked luggage or bring it with his carry-on? Both happen from time to time in the USA.
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Old 28th March 2019, 12:27 AM   #1729
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
So did he forget to declare the rifle in his checked luggage or bring it with his carry-on? Both happen from time to time in the USA.
All I know is what's the article.
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Meanwhile, the cops seem to have found a lot of white supremacists they were ignoring until the attack, with a string of arrests across Chch, including one where the person whose house they were searching has died of what seem to be self-inflicted injuries.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/cri...n-christchurch
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Old 28th March 2019, 08:27 AM   #1730
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
All I know is what's the article.

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Meanwhile, the cops seem to have found a lot of white supremacists they were ignoring until the attack, with a string of arrests across Chch, including one where the person whose house they were searching has died of what seem to be self-inflicted injuries.



https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/cri...n-christchurch
You know how it goes, you buy a new car and then you see hundreds of your car on the road that you never noticed before and you wonder where all these cars have come from..
....
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Old 28th March 2019, 08:45 AM   #1731
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Excellent work New Zealand Keep using that militarized police force against teenagers who shared Tarrant's video and throw the full weight of the law at them. 14 years no hope of parole.

Meanwhile, your state of hyper-vigilance seems to be paying off. This stupid teenager ( probably a nazi ) actually uploaded a picture to his facebook of himself holding an airsoft gun and his facebook friends reacted appropriately and alerted the militarized police.

Just to be on the safe side the militarized police kicked in the doors of not only the kid but also those of his mother and grandparents, just to be on the safe side.

Lo and behold, an illegal firearm was discovered in the father's room, along with a large collection of World War II German memorabilia, including uniforms, pouches and helmets. Who else would have that stuff but a white supremacist nazi bastard amirite ?

Anyways the nazi father is no longer a problem, 'cause he's dead of "suspected" suicide.

Don't forget those people who shared/viewed that manifesto.

"We are grateful to those who alerted police on this occasion and encourage people to remain vigilant."
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Old 28th March 2019, 12:35 PM   #1732
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Looks like the over-vigilance has reached Australia, where a musician carrying his instrument on a train caused a major panic: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-03-...ourne/10947304
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Old 28th March 2019, 12:44 PM   #1733
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Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
From the country that gave us Hitler and Eichmann.....
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Old 28th March 2019, 10:10 PM   #1734
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A post dripping with irony:

Originally Posted by Stout View Post
Excellent work New Zealand Keep using that militarized police force against teenagers who shared Tarrant's video and throw the full weight of the law at them. 14 years no hope of parole.

Meanwhile, your state of hyper-vigilance seems to be paying off. This stupid teenager ( probably a nazi ) actually uploaded a picture to his facebook of himself holding an airsoft gun and his facebook friends reacted appropriately and alerted the militarized police.

Just to be on the safe side the militarized police kicked in the doors of not only the kid but also those of his mother and grandparents, just to be on the safe side.

Lo and behold, an illegal firearm was discovered in the father's room, along with a large collection of World War II German memorabilia, including uniforms, pouches and helmets. Who else would have that stuff but a white supremacist nazi bastard amirite ?

Anyways the nazi father is no longer a problem, 'cause he's dead of "suspected" suicide.

Don't forget those people who shared/viewed that manifesto.

"We are grateful to those who alerted police on this occasion and encourage people to remain vigilant."

So the guy was a totally harmless history buff, and the police were overreacting, right?

Quote:
A former Russian soldier who feared going back (!) to prison tried to call his son before dying of a suspected suicide following a three-hour standoff with police.
(...)
Police Commissioner Mike Bush said police found a number of firearms at the property
(...)
After establishing his identity, police told the 16-year-old he was going to be arrested for possession of ammunition and a firearm in his room.
He said the firearm in his room was an 8 millimetre blank pistol. The other gun, found in his father's room was an illegal, modified SKS semi-automatic, he said.
Also in the house was his father's large collection of World War II German memorabilia, including uniforms, pouches and helmets.
(...)
He said his father, who had previously spent time in prison for assault, was worried about going back to prison for possessing the illegal firearm.
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Old 29th March 2019, 12:02 AM   #1735
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On day when yet again, thousands of Kiwis have attended memorial services, some kid in Chch has been caught "making or copying", not distributing, an objectionable video - presumably the shooter's one.

Remanding a schoolboy in custody is maybe a touch harsh.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/a...ectid=12217619
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Old 29th March 2019, 12:18 AM   #1736
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Google's home page ribbon today is pretty cool
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Capture.JPG (20.8 KB, 12 views)
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Old 29th March 2019, 12:24 AM   #1737
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
A post dripping with irony:

So the guy was a totally harmless history buff, and the police were overreacting, right?
Once again, our friend posts what he thinks is a big "gotcha" purely off a cursory reading of a headline without reading the body of the article

How adorable... and embarrassing.
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Old 29th March 2019, 05:27 AM   #1738
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
A post dripping with irony:




So the guy was a totally harmless history buff, and the police were overreacting, right?
So kicking the doors of multiple properties over a facebook photo is a good thing, right ? Maybe we'll get lucky and find out this "suspected suicide" was really a police sniper bullet to the head.
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Old 29th March 2019, 08:42 AM   #1739
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More good news

New Zealand ISPs were thinking about lifting their blocks on certain content but the fast acting government stepped in to prevent a "return to business" situation.

ISPs keep Chch web blocks after Govt intervention

I don't actually know what's in the article because I "just read the headline".
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Old 29th March 2019, 09:42 AM   #1740
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Mod InfoI moved all of the new media discussion off to its own thread. Please continue that discussion there.
Posted By:kmortis
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Old 29th March 2019, 08:53 PM   #1741
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
So kicking the doors of multiple properties over a facebook photo is a good thing, right ?
...the word "kick" is not even used in that article. Embellishing the article to fit the narrative you want us to perceive is not in the best interests of skepticism. The "facebook photo" story is the story given by the 16 year-old son of the deceased: is there any particular reason why you have chosen to believe that story as if it were gospel?
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Old 29th March 2019, 10:00 PM   #1742
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Originally Posted by banquetbear View Post
...the word "kick" is not even used in that article. Embellishing the article to fit the narrative you want us to perceive is not in the best interests of skepticism. The "facebook photo" story is the story given by the 16 year-old son of the deceased: is there any particular reason why you have chosen to believe that story as if it were gospel?


Because its the only bit that fits his pre-conceived narrative?
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Last edited by smartcooky; 29th March 2019 at 11:06 PM.
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Old 30th March 2019, 05:34 AM   #1743
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Originally Posted by banquetbear View Post
...the word "kick" is not even used in that article. Embellishing the article to fit the narrative you want us to perceive is not in the best interests of skepticism. The "facebook photo" story is the story given by the 16 year-old son of the deceased: is there any particular reason why you have chosen to believe that story as if it were gospel?
If you have new information that proves the news story is not-as-presented then please, in the name of skepticism, post it. If that new information happens show that the police initiated their searches with a polite knock and a request for entry then, in the name of skepticism, I'm be happy to acknowledge it.

No need to let my hyperbole get in the way of the truth.
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Old 30th March 2019, 07:07 AM   #1744
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
If there were a time in NZ when you'd expect any person still able to breathe to recognise taking a gun on a plane would require a mass of correct paperwork and check-in procedures, it would be now.

This bloke obviously missed all that: https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/a...ectid=12217211
Why? I thought there was no security on domestic flights.

Quote:
An Air New Zealand flight from Auckland to Christchurch was delayed after a firearm was found in the hold of the aircraft by security teams.
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Old 30th March 2019, 07:50 AM   #1745
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Why? I thought there was no security on domestic flights.
There is no security on regional domestic flights. These are the Air Nelson (operating under Air NZ) and so are the 50 seat Bombardier Q300's.

The major routes between Auckland, Wellington, Christchurch, Dunedin, and Queenstown, are serviced by Air NZ and JetStar, both using the larger Airbus A320s. All of those flights have security screening.
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Old 30th March 2019, 07:55 AM   #1746
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
If you have new information that proves the news story is not-as-presented then please, in the name of skepticism, post it. If that new information happens show that the police initiated their searches with a polite knock and a request for entry then, in the name of skepticism, I'm be happy to acknowledge it.

No need to let my hyperbole get in the way of the truth.
...the news story as presented said nothing about "kicking doors". That isn't hyperbole, that is a distortion of the truth for the purposes of presenting a false narrative.

I haven't disputed the "story as presented." I don't need to provide new information: the fact that the "facebook photo story" came from the 16 year-old son of the deceased is information enough to be able to know that 1) the source of the information is likely (but not necessarily) biased, and 2) we have not heard the police-side of the story. With those 2 bits of information it is reasonable to conclude that we don't have all the information on exactly what happened here, and to proceed with a narrative that the police are "kicking in doors" based on only a "facebook photo" is irresponsible.
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Old 30th March 2019, 08:57 AM   #1747
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Originally Posted by banquetbear View Post
...the news story as presented said nothing about "kicking doors". That isn't hyperbole, that is a distortion of the truth for the purposes of presenting a false narrative.

I haven't disputed the "story as presented." I don't need to provide new information: the fact that the "facebook photo story" came from the 16 year-old son of the deceased is information enough to be able to know that 1) the source of the information is likely (but not necessarily) biased, and 2) we have not heard the police-side of the story. With those 2 bits of information it is reasonable to conclude that we don't have all the information on exactly what happened here, and to proceed with a narrative that the police are "kicking in doors" based on only a "facebook photo" is irresponsible.
How do you know kicking doors is a distortion of the truth ? There's obviously some police version of the events where they deny doing that, right ? Or is kicking in doors so highly unusual when conducting searches in NZ that there's a very slim possibility that this would have happened ?

Sure, the kid could have made it up, but the police side of the story should clarify that, should it not ? I'm sure we'll be hearing that version of the story.....shortly.
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Old 30th March 2019, 12:51 PM   #1748
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I have to wonder whether Tarrant is related to Breivik, or has just followed his life with plans to copy it to the last detail.

He's now crying that he isn't being allowed visitors or phone calls.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/chr...nt-from-prison
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Old 30th March 2019, 02:26 PM   #1749
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
I have to wonder whether Tarrant is related to Breivik, or has just followed his life with plans to copy it to the last detail.

He's now crying that he isn't being allowed visitors or phone calls.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/chr...nt-from-prison
"Paremoremo has the highest number of Māori and Pacific Island staff in the country. The prisoner will be dealt with by officers of different ethnic origins, he said."

"The inmate was escorted by four to five Corrections staff at Whenuapai, where he was handed to the Site Emergency Response Team from Auckland Prison, a normal practice when moving high risk inmates.

None of the SERT members who collected the gunman were European. "


Ooh, that will be fun for a white supremacist.

No visitors
No phone calls
No newspapers
No access to radio or television
No contact with the outside world at all

So no chance for him to bask in his fake self-glory for what he has done. All good AFAIC... His name does not even get mentioned in the article, and frankly, I'd sooner it stays that way. He should become persona non grata, invisible, and rot in jail for the rest of his life.
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Old 30th March 2019, 03:07 PM   #1750
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
How do you know kicking doors is a distortion of the truth ? There's obviously some police version of the events where they deny doing that, right ? Or is kicking in doors so highly unusual when conducting searches in NZ that there's a very slim possibility that this would have happened ?
...the NZ police do not need to deny a claim made by an anonymous poster on a message board. The claim that the police "kicked down doors" is your claim: not a claim made by anyone else. A cursory google search show zero instances of NZ police actually kicking in doors. If you have information to suggest that "kicking down doors" is typical behavior when executing a search warrant here then now would be the perfect time to present that information.

Quote:
Sure, the kid could have made it up, but the police side of the story should clarify that, should it not ? I'm sure we'll be hearing that version of the story.....shortly.
Its not necessarily a matter of the "kid making it up." The kid is probably expressing what he genuinely thinks happened. He is allowed to do that: its a free country. The facebook photo most probably wasn't enough for a warrant: the police need "reasonable grounds to suspect" a punishable offence has been made, and "reasonable grounds to believe" that evidence will be found at the location.
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Old 30th March 2019, 06:15 PM   #1751
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It's just a figure of speech really, this whole kicking in the door thing. I'm not meaning the NZ police literally go up to a door, shout POLICE ! as they knock loudly then raise a jack booted foot and apply a swift kick to the door to bust it open before rushing in with weapons drawn. Especially not when dealing with violent offenders, no sir they don't kick in the door.

They use a battering ram like everybody else.

Until we find out what those reasonable grounds were, we work with what we got.
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Old 30th March 2019, 06:34 PM   #1752
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
"Paremoremo has the highest number of Māori and Pacific Island staff in the country. The prisoner will be dealt with by officers of different ethnic origins, he said."

"The inmate was escorted by four to five Corrections staff at Whenuapai, where he was handed to the Site Emergency Response Team from Auckland Prison, a normal practice when moving high risk inmates.

None of the SERT members who collected the gunman were European. "


Ooh, that will be fun for a white supremacist.

No visitors
No phone calls
No newspapers
No access to radio or television
No contact with the outside world at all

So no chance for him to bask in his fake self-glory for what he has done. All good AFAIC... His name does not even get mentioned in the article, and frankly, I'd sooner it stays that way. He should become persona non grata, invisible, and rot in jail for the rest of his life.
The rest I don't give a toss about, but the highlighted concerns me.
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Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 30th March 2019, 06:42 PM   #1753
smartcooky
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
The rest I don't give a toss about, but the highlighted concerns me.
Why? Prisoners making phone calls from prison is a privilege.

There is no right for any prisoners to make phone calls, other that the very first one they are granted when arrested.
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Old 30th March 2019, 06:48 PM   #1754
cullennz
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Why? Prisoners making phone calls from prison is a privilege.

There is no right for any prisoners to make phone calls, other that the very first one they are granted when arrested.
Yes there is

Quote:
Prisoner telephone criteria:

Every prisoner is entitled to make at least 1 outgoing telephone call of up to 5 minutes duration per week, in addition to any calls to an outside agency or his or her legal advisor.
https://www.corrections.govt.nz/reso...ication/C.html
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 30th March 2019, 07:06 PM   #1755
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Why? Prisoners making phone calls from prison is a privilege.

There is no right for any prisoners to make phone calls, other that the very first one they are granted when arrested.
No, it is a statutory entitlement for a prisoner to “make at least 1 outgoing telephone call of up to 5 minutes’ duration per week.”
That is apart from calls to their legal advisors or official agencies.

The State has the authority to restrict this access.
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Old 30th March 2019, 07:22 PM   #1756
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
True... I hadn't thought of that.....

He's in isolation so the rules may be different, but in any case, I still don't care. This guy wasn't stealing milk money from his neighbour, he's a terrorist.

Some people might be saying "but his rights, his rights"? The only "rights I care about at the moment is those of the victims, the survivors, and their families.
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Old 30th March 2019, 07:47 PM   #1757
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
True... I hadn't thought of that.....

He's in isolation so the rules may be different, but in any case, I still don't care. This guy wasn't stealing milk money from his neighbour, he's a terrorist.

Some people might be saying "but his rights, his rights"? The only "rights I care about at the moment is those of the victims, the survivors, and their families.
From a personap case of him point of view it isn't going to cost me any sleep, but when you add it to the whole 14 years for the manifesto thing and what looks will be knee jerk hate speech laws that sound like are happening the authorities and govt aren't exactly filling me with confIdence with their reactions to a horrible event.

The only thing I can compare it to is ditching the provocation defence over one mister nutburger Weatherston
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 30th March 2019, 08:56 PM   #1758
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
From a personap case of him point of view it isn't going to cost me any sleep, but when you add it to the whole 14 years for the manifesto thing and what looks will be knee jerk hate speech laws that sound like are happening the authorities and govt aren't exactly filling me with confIdence with their reactions to a horrible event.

The only thing I can compare it to is ditching the provocation defence over one mister nutburger Weatherston
Meh. One person's "kneejerk reaction" is another persons "breaking point".


Oh, and I'm 100% in favour of the removal of "provocation" as a defence to murder.
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Old 30th March 2019, 09:08 PM   #1759
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Meh. One person's "kneejerk reaction" is another persons "breaking point".


Oh, and I'm 100% in favour of the removal of "provocation" as a defence to murder.
It wasn't just murder. It was everything.

But that is a different topic, so shouldn't have mentioned it.

The point is knee jerk ill thought law tends to lead to bad law, and taking away this scums basic rights is stupid, to say the least.

Wouldn't surprise me if he ends up suing in a few years and we end up forking millions in court costs.
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 30th March 2019, 10:32 PM   #1760
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
"Paremoremo has the highest number of Māori and Pacific Island staff in the country. The prisoner will be dealt with by officers of different ethnic origins, he said."

"The inmate was escorted by four to five Corrections staff at Whenuapai, where he was handed to the Site Emergency Response Team from Auckland Prison, a normal practice when moving high risk inmates.

None of the SERT members who collected the gunman were European. "


Ooh, that will be fun for a white supremacist.
Why would the ethnicity of the law enforcement officers make a difference? In New Zealand, is it common and/or acceptable for people of one ethnic group to treat members of a different ethnic group more harshly than their own? In the United States, a prisoner if supposed to be treated the way prisoners are treated. The ethnicity of anybody involved shouldn't influence anything.

Quote:
No visitors
No phone calls
No newspapers
No access to radio or television
No contact with the outside world at all

So no chance for him to bask in his fake self-glory for what he has done. All good AFAIC... His name does not even get mentioned in the article, and frankly, I'd sooner it stays that way. He should become persona non grata, invisible, and rot in jail for the rest of his life.
So just lock him up in solitary confinement without a trial? Make it as though Brenton Harrison Tarrant just walked into a dense fog late one night and was never heard from again?
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