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Old 27th December 2019, 03:49 AM   #121
P.J. Denyer
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
There is a specific sore spot about foxes in the UK. They are the marmite of the animal world. Some people love them and some people just love to kill them. By tweeting your apparent pleasure at killing one you are effectively recreating that scene in Predator when Billy slices open his chest and dares the Predator to come for him. And Twitter, like the Predator, always obliges.
Again, while I can see why it could be taken that way I don't read his tweet as 'apparent pleasure'. "I've [X]. How's your day going?" is used in both "I've done something great/cool and I'm shaping up for a wonderful day." and "I've done something stupid/had to do something unpleasant and I'm shaping up for a sucky day." sense depending on what [X] is. The problem arises when people could interpret [X] either way, if I started the day by killing an animal because I believed it was a threat to my own animals (irrespective of discussion about whether it was a threat etc) I'd consider that a horrible event, on the other hand, there are dozens of Boxing Day fox hunts so some people would obviously disagree.

I don't know enough about him to say which camp he'd fall into, I don't think anyone here does so we're all applying our own prejudices to project the meaning onto an ambiguous statement that we wish to.
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Old 27th December 2019, 03:52 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Which wouldn't describe a fox in a hen house.
Is it too much to ask for you to actually read my posts Darat?

I mean seriously

Where did I say it did?

Edited by zooterkin:  <SNIP>
Edited for rule 11.
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Old 27th December 2019, 03:55 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Is it too much to ask for you to actually read my posts Darat?



I mean seriously



Where did I say it did?



Edited by zooterkin:  <SNIP>
Edited for rule 11.
If your explanation wasn't about the word vicious in relation to foxes what was it about? The only other animal talked about in this thread is chickens.
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Old 27th December 2019, 04:02 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
And btw

Vicious is not an emotive term.

It is just a term for an animal being stuck in a situation in feels the need to kill things to get out of.

It isn't even that uncommon

While 'vicious' can be used as a synonym for 'savage' most dictionary definitions also include an element of deliberate malice to it. However the semantics of the word are off topic and since I think we agree that a fox surrounded by chickens is acting on instinct rather than premeditated cruelty, let's just agree to differ on the precise wording.
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Old 27th December 2019, 04:03 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
If your explanation wasn't about the word vicious in relation to foxes what was it about? The only other animal talked about in this thread is chickens.

Why are you even bringing up chickens Darat
Edited by zooterkin:  <SNIP>
Edited for rule 11.
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Last edited by zooterkin; 27th December 2019 at 04:59 AM.
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Old 27th December 2019, 04:06 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Why are you even bringing up chickens Darat

Edited by zooterkin:  <SNIP>
Edited for rule 11.
I think Darat's point was that a fox in a hen house doesn't kill the chickens in order to escape. It's prey drive not fight or flight that drives the behaviour.
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Old 27th December 2019, 04:10 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
I think Darat's point was that a fox in a hen house doesn't kill the chickens in order to escape. It's prey drive not fight or flight that drives the behaviour.
I think Darat is old enough to answer for themselves, but also realise a fox is a wild animal that will kill anything in a hen house that moves.
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Old 27th December 2019, 04:46 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Why are you even bringing up chickens Darat



Edited by zooterkin:  <SNIP>
Edited for rule 11.
The only two animals mentioned in this thread are chickens and foxes. You say the use of vicious is not about foxes so which other animal are you commenting on by saying they acted viciously?
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Old 27th December 2019, 04:47 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
I think Darat is old enough to answer for themselves, but also realise a fox is a wild animal that will kill anything in a hen house that moves.
But not for the reason you stated.
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Old 27th December 2019, 04:51 AM   #130
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I haven't stated anv reasons

It just is what it is. Wild animals kill things
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Old 27th December 2019, 05:10 AM   #131
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
I haven't stated anv reasons

It just is what it is. Wild animals kill things
You stated that "...Vicious is not an emotive term.

It is just a term for an animal being stuck in a situation in feels the need to kill things to get out of...."

If that doesn't refer to the fox what are you talking about?
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Old 27th December 2019, 05:15 AM   #132
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Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
I see no issue. Baseball bat to the head is perfect death. Certainly not cruel. Could be cruel if done sloppily, but even then if the intent was quick death, I don't see how it could have been illegal.

It is. The law is not against killing but against "causing unnecessary suffering". Unnecessary suffering is a net that can catch almost any act other than provably instantaneous death, say with a shot to the head. I had a case of deer poaching where the shot severed the deer's windpipe and it suffocated within a couple of minutes. No problem getting unnecessary suffering in that one.

I had a case where a pet cat was found having been shot through the right ventricle of the heart. I explained to the police that while death would have been quick it would not have been absolutely instantaneous, so see what you can do. I wouldn't over-state the suffering but I could give them a couple of seconds. (They never caught the culprit so I don't know what a sheriff would have decided.)

I have been to lecturers where prosecutors explain that they only need a couple of seconds pain before death to go after someone for causing unnecessary suffering. In fact I think they do go a little far there. Because the killing itself is not illegal they try to get the perpetrator on the unnecessary suffering rap even if death has been pretty quick.

I simply do not believe that a kimono-clad Jolyon Maugham was expert enough with a blunt weapon to render a trapped fox instantly insensible with a single blow. If the body is available I would take a fair-sized bet that a very strong case could be made against him. I've made similar cases myself.

Without the body it might be difficult to impossible to prove anything. All there is, is his confession. The RSPCA seemed to be dragging its feet, asking for "people with first-hand knowledge of the incident" to phone them rather than going straight round to his house to investigate. I imagine he will have had the sense to dispose of the body and as he is a QC rather than some ordinary bloke the RSPCA will suspend their usual practice of trying to get as many convictions for animal cruelty as they can, to boost their image, and will quietly let the whole thing blow over.
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Old 27th December 2019, 06:50 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
It is. The law is not against killing but against "causing unnecessary suffering". Unnecessary suffering is a net that can catch almost any act other than provably instantaneous death, say with a shot to the head. I had a case of deer poaching where the shot severed the deer's windpipe and it suffocated within a couple of minutes. No problem getting unnecessary suffering in that one.

I had a case where a pet cat was found having been shot through the right ventricle of the heart. I explained to the police that while death would have been quick it would not have been absolutely instantaneous, so see what you can do. I wouldn't over-state the suffering but I could give them a couple of seconds. (They never caught the culprit so I don't know what a sheriff would have decided.)

I have been to lecturers where prosecutors explain that they only need a couple of seconds pain before death to go after someone for causing unnecessary suffering. In fact I think they do go a little far there. Because the killing itself is not illegal they try to get the perpetrator on the unnecessary suffering rap even if death has been pretty quick.

I simply do not believe that a kimono-clad Jolyon Maugham was expert enough with a blunt weapon to render a trapped fox instantly insensible with a single blow. If the body is available I would take a fair-sized bet that a very strong case could be made against him. I've made similar cases myself.

Without the body it might be difficult to impossible to prove anything. All there is, is his confession. The RSPCA seemed to be dragging its feet, asking for "people with first-hand knowledge of the incident" to phone them rather than going straight round to his house to investigate. I imagine he will have had the sense to dispose of the body and as he is a QC rather than some ordinary bloke the RSPCA will suspend their usual practice of trying to get as many convictions for animal cruelty as they can, to boost their image, and will quietly let the whole thing blow over.
It may blow over legally, but I don't think Maugham will ever live that one down in the court of public opinion. It will be thrown in his face at every opportunity.
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Old 27th December 2019, 08:13 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
It may blow over legally, but I don't think Maugham will ever live that one down in the court of public opinion. It will be thrown in his face at every opportunity.
It's going to be interesting seeing as how the same party which is pushing Brexit (and it is Maugham's opposition to Brexit which is the source of most animosity against him) is also in favour of reversing the ban on hunting foxes with dogs.
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Old 27th December 2019, 08:54 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
Again, while I can see why it could be taken that way I don't read his tweet as 'apparent pleasure'. "I've [X]. How's your day going?" is used in both "I've done something great/cool and I'm shaping up for a wonderful day." and "I've done something stupid/had to do something unpleasant and I'm shaping up for a sucky day." sense depending on what [X] is. The problem arises when people could interpret [X] either way, if I started the day by killing an animal because I believed it was a threat to my own animals (irrespective of discussion about whether it was a threat etc) I'd consider that a horrible event, on the other hand, there are dozens of Boxing Day fox hunts so some people would obviously disagree.

I don't know enough about him to say which camp he'd fall into, I don't think anyone here does so we're all applying our own prejudices to project the meaning onto an ambiguous statement that we wish to.
True enough. Maybe it was my interpretation that he was apparently pleased at what he did.
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Old 27th December 2019, 09:21 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Doesn't seem like he treated the fox any more cruelly than the fox was gonna treat those chickens.

You think if the fox had found a chicken stuck in a fence, he would have tried to disentangle it? Called for a professional?

No. The fox would probably have started eating that chicken before it was even dead.
He didn't eat the fox though, which makes killing it even more gratuitous and pointless.
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Old 27th December 2019, 09:27 AM   #137
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Sir, are you able to address the argument, instead of attacking the arguer?
Cool your biscuits there fella. I was just saying that your concept was ridiculous. I didn't mean any offense.

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I mean, what's your endgame, here? Are you telling me I should just question your mental capacity, whenever you make an argument I don't like but can't figure out how to refute?
You're comparing the actions of a fox to the actions of a human. We may have just a few mental advantages over a ******* fox, ya think? Should we act like animals act? Is that the basis of your claim? Well, if the fox was going to kill a chicken and it might have been in a non-instant way, we should have no issues bludgeoning a ******* fox to death?

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Because that's pretty tempting. But I don't think the MA allows it. Do you want to try again, or should I just report your post now?
Report whatever the **** you want whenever you want to report it. You don't need my permission. The fact that your post was so far from logic was what prompted my reply. I don't need to try again, if your argument is "animals kill each other, therefore humans should be able to beat animals to death with blunt weapons" then I'd say that ******** argument is nothing short of an own goal. Good work.
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Old 27th December 2019, 09:56 AM   #138
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
He didn't eat the fox though, which makes killing it even more gratuitous and pointless.
A chicken lives according to its nature. A fox lives according to its nature. A man lives according to its nature. Who are we to pass judgement on the nature of things?
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Old 27th December 2019, 09:58 AM   #139
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Cool your biscuits there fella. I was just saying that your concept was ridiculous.
"Your concept is ridculous (and here's why)" suffices. It has the added merit of addressing the argument, not the arguer.

Quote:
I didn't mean any offense.
And yet here we are.
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Old 27th December 2019, 09:59 AM   #140
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
"Your concept is ridculous (and here's why)" suffices. It has the added merit of addressing the argument, not the arguer.


And yet here we are.
Here we are. Cherry picking 1 line out of the entire post, where the rest addressed your entire argument.
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Old 27th December 2019, 10:24 AM   #141
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
The only two animals mentioned in this thread are chickens and foxes. You say the use of vicious is not about foxes so which other animal are you commenting on by saying they acted viciously?

Take your pick:

Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Unless it's an emergency, you should probably call the police or wildlife service and ask what you should do, rather than just reaching for the shovel or bat and going for the kill.

Think before you kill something bigger than a fly.

Edit: he said something about killing and eating rabbits, so presumably he turned the fox into food instead of throwing away the body in the trash? At least then his action come off as more reasonable, but not nessecerily legal, rather than just completely indefensible.
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Old 27th December 2019, 12:13 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
A chicken lives according to its nature. A fox lives according to its nature. A man lives according to its nature. Who are we to pass judgement on the nature of things?
We're (as yet) the only beings capable of forming judgments. That's who we are. The nature of man is to pass judgment.

And that judgment is that chickens are delicious, but while foxes may be cute I don't know if anyone actually eats them. So we should side with Team Chicken. *bangs gavel*
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Old 27th December 2019, 12:17 PM   #143
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Animals Mentioned Thus Far: foxes, chickens, humans, rabbits, flies, and orcas.

Viciousness Scale 1-10, 1 being Least Vicious, 10 being Most Vicious:

Foxes: 6
Chickens: 2
Humans: 10
Rabbits: 14
Flies: 1
Orca: 9
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Old 27th December 2019, 12:30 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
A chicken lives according to its nature. A fox lives according to its nature. A man lives according to its nature. Who are we to pass judgement on the nature of things?
We pass such judgements constantly. For example, we judged that smallpox was highly undesirable and wiped it out. Some UK MPs judged that hunting certain animals with hounds was wrong and voted to outlaw it.

Chickens and foxes never make judgements. They don't reflect on the doings of the world, they simply act.

It might be that you subscribe to determinism WP (that we don't truly have free will), but then what about The Dice Man?
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Old 27th December 2019, 12:52 PM   #145
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
We pass such judgements constantly. For example, we judged that smallpox was highly undesirable and wiped it out. Some UK MPs judged that hunting certain animals with hounds was wrong and voted to outlaw it.

Chickens and foxes never make judgements. They don't reflect on the doings of the world, they simply act.

It might be that you subscribe to determinism WP (that we don't truly have free will), but then what about The Dice Man?
Good one. Well played. What about The Dice Man?
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Old 27th December 2019, 01:26 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Good one. Well played. What about The Dice Man?
It wasn't a game, although I expect you're familiar with the reference. Just in case - The Dice ManWP was a novel, recently made into a film, where the main character makes decisions, great and small, according to the roll of a die. Even a diehard determinist would struggle to claim that those decisions were part of our nature.

Is it your view that humans are bound to do exactly what they end up doing? The foxes and chickens certainly were.
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Old 27th December 2019, 01:33 PM   #147
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Sadly, from Imdb and what I found here, the Dice Man movie is still in development. If it exists, please let me know.

I have had to blunt force a small rodent before, but I would definitely try to free a fox. Heck, I once brought a seagull with a broken wing to the bird hospital.
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Old 27th December 2019, 01:45 PM   #148
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
It wasn't a game, although I expect you're familiar with the reference. Just in case - The Dice ManWP was a novel, recently made into a film, where the main character makes decisions, great and small, according to the roll of a die. Even a diehard determinist would struggle to claim that those decisions were part of our nature.
It was obviously part of his nature to subordinate his decision-making to the roll of a die.

Quote:
Is it your view that humans are bound to do exactly what they end up doing? The foxes and chickens certainly were.
It's my view that I don't really care all that much. I side with The Chicken Man on this one. Find a fox in the fence, crack its skull. Don't mention it on Twitter. The end.
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Old 27th December 2019, 02:18 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
Sadly, from Imdb and what I found here, the Dice Man movie is still in development. If it exists, please let me know.
OK, cheers. I read about it somewhere and just assumed it was finished.
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Old 27th December 2019, 02:27 PM   #150
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It was obviously part of his nature to subordinate his decision-making to the roll of a die.
Yes, but a given decision might be totally contrary to his previous 'nature'.

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It's my view that I don't really care all that much. I side with The Chicken Man on this one. Find a fox in the fence, crack its skull.
That would be your nature, not human nature. I'd do something totally different, and this is exactly the point of our little discussion - the behaviour of a fox or chicken is driven by invariable instinct, whereas a human can make choices.
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Old 27th December 2019, 03:10 PM   #151
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Yes, but a given decision might be totally contrary to his previous 'nature'.



That would be your nature, not human nature. I'd do something totally different, and this is exactly the point of our little discussion - the behaviour of a fox or chicken is driven by invariable instinct, whereas a human can make choices.
... Or can they?
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Old 27th December 2019, 03:26 PM   #152
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
We're (as yet) the only beings capable of forming judgments. That's who we are. The nature of man is to pass judgment.

And that judgment is that chickens are delicious, but while foxes may be cute I don't know if anyone actually eats them. So we should side with Team Chicken. *bangs gavel*


And even though we end up killing and eating many of those chickens, there are very strict rules (in countries such as the USA or UK) about the humane ways in which chickens have to be dealt with - in life, in transportation to their deaths, and in the way in which they die.

Why should that be so? We're only breeding and keeping the damn things (chickens bred for meat, that is) in order to kill and eat them after all! Why should we not just give them the lowest-cost miserable lives of suffering, throw them alive into big dump trucks for transportation to the slaughterhouse, then attach them (alive) by the feet to huge wheels that rotate against a concrete wall, thereby giving each chicken repeated head strikes until it finally dies? Why should we care about the welfare of these damn animals?!

Well..... perhaps if those who cannot seemingly understand why it's not right - or legal in England&Wales - to batter to death a fox which has merely become entangled in netting and has become (understandably) distressed were to think about the questions posed in the previous paragraph, and the answers to those questions...... we might make some headway
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Old 27th December 2019, 03:29 PM   #153
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Animals Mentioned Thus Far: foxes, chickens, humans, rabbits, flies, and orcas.

Viciousness Scale 1-10, 1 being Least Vicious, 10 being Most Vicious:

Foxes: 6
Chickens: 2
Humans: 10
Rabbits: 14
Flies: 1
Orca: 9

Partridge in Pear Tree: 2 (though 5 if it's become entangled in the branches)
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Old 27th December 2019, 03:52 PM   #154
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Animals Mentioned Thus Far: foxes, chickens, humans, rabbits, flies, and orcas.

Viciousness Scale 1-10, 1 being Least Vicious, 10 being Most Vicious:

Foxes: 6
Chickens: 2
Humans: 10
Rabbits: 14
Flies: 1
Orca: 9
I know! I’ve seen Watership Down AND Monty Python’s Holy Grail. And the Frozen Planet scene with the orcas hunting seals.
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Old 27th December 2019, 03:56 PM   #155
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Update (such as it is) on the RSPCA* investigation into Maugham's self-alleged actions:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...gham-kills-fox


* For those who might not be aware, the RSPCA (the Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals) is not merely a charity, a practical aid organisation, and a lobbyist for animal welfare. In fact, it also wields a considerable amount of legal power - it's one of the few entities (alongside the obvious one (The Crown) and entities such as the Health and Safety Executive) which has the authority to prosecute criminal charges in a Crown Court.
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Old 27th December 2019, 03:59 PM   #156
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
I know! I’ve seen Watership Down AND Monty Python’s Holy Grail. And the Frozen Planet scene with the orcas hunting seals.

"It ISSSSS the rabbit!"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcxKIJTb3Hg
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Old 27th December 2019, 04:03 PM   #157
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
Update (such as it is) on the RSPCA* investigation into Maugham's self-alleged actions:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...gham-kills-fox


* For those who might not be aware, the RSPCA (the Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals) is not merely a charity, a practical aid organisation, and a lobbyist for animal welfare. In fact, it also wields a considerable amount of legal power - it's one of the few entities (alongside the obvious one (The Crown) and entities such as the Health and Safety Executive) which has the authority to prosecute criminal charges in a Crown Court.
At times like this, I'm just glad that the British system seems to work for them.
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Old 27th December 2019, 04:07 PM   #158
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I'd probably lock him up just for being called "Jolyon". And yes, I'm aware of the F1 driver of that name a couple of years ago.
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Old 27th December 2019, 04:13 PM   #159
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Thinking about it, Jo himself tweeted that he had phoned the RSPCA after the twitter storm blew up. If they do investigate and it is discovered that he has disposed of the body in such a way that it can't be recovered (and my partner had to post-mortem more than one fox that had been dug up by the RSPCA as long as a couple of weeks after the event to get evidence of unnecessary suffering, so it's not as if they're not used to this), then it could get very sticky. He's a lawyer. He should know he's not supposed to conceal evidence.

I still think he'll get off because of who he is, but he really is in a very precarious position if someone in the prosecutions department of the RSPCA (which by the way is based in West Sussex) decides to make an example of him.
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Old 27th December 2019, 04:18 PM   #160
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
I'd probably lock him up just for being called "Jolyon". And yes, I'm aware of the F1 driver of that name a couple of years ago.
Worse! It is actually pronounced “Maudlin”.





not a true story
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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