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Old 5th March 2020, 01:33 PM   #561
Stacyhs
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Plenty of employers are fine with firing people for being sick. My wife had that happen to her. She tried to call in sick as a waitress the night before work and got told to come in. Oddly no one wanted a visibly sick waitress so she got sent home and fired. Why would a little Covid-19 change the whole restaurant industry?
Some are. But it sounds to me like her boss was just an a-hole or used it as an excuse to fire her for some other reason s/he had.
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Old 5th March 2020, 01:36 PM   #562
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Welcome to isf, where someone ,(me) can say that Trump's words were vague, pointless, and unworthy of a statement by the president of the United States, and the response is "Why are you defending Trump?'
Uh, sure. Just find the spot in the quote where I said that.

I didn't. I said you were giving him a pass. Which is what several in this thread are doing.

"I think Trump is being misunderstood" has been common. There have been some even stating that Trump is correct.

However, the WHO didn't say that the overall death rate is going to be 3+%, they said that is the snapshot they have of it now. Right?

So, it's not a fake number. It's an accurate number. I'm saying that, for some reason, you guys are saying we have to read between the lines for what Trump says, but you aren't even framing WHO's verbatim statements accurately. I have absolutely no ******* clue why.
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Old 5th March 2020, 01:43 PM   #563
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Trump jokes (?) about not having touched his face for weeks:

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I AGREE

But ....
1) He's been seen touching his face.
2) One week ago there was no danger whatsoever. There were only 15 cases in the USA, and they were all quarantined and recovering. According to Trump.

He should be forced to lick every doorknob in the White House and kiss the Veep whenever he returns from meetings with hospital employees!
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Old 5th March 2020, 01:49 PM   #564
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post

Can somebody update this sign?
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 5th March 2020, 02:01 PM   #565
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Bingo! Someone who understands how it works.

On one hand, WHO is saying it's deadly, while we know for certain that many, many cases present very mildly. If you don't feel too bad, you wouldn't even think you had Covid-19. A slight cold, hayfever, sore throat...

That depends very much on who you are: The rule in Denmark right now is that if you have a sore throat and have reason to think that you might be infected (for instance if you just returned from skiing in Italy), you should call your doctor.

Quote:
Why would you stay home when you're not going to be paid if you don't even feel very ill?

Could it be because you're young and healthy and don't want to expose your older colleagues to a virus that doesn't affect you much but might kill a couple of them?! You know, a little like people vaccinating their children even thought they are so healthy that they probably won't die from a bit of measles unlike the neighbor's son, who has a weak immune system ...
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 5th March 2020, 02:09 PM   #566
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Originally Posted by eeyore1954 View Post
I don't believe the WHO meant the actual rate of fatalities for those who get
the corona virus was 3.4%. So I wonder why did they say it. Or not clarify later
Beats the hell out of me. I can only presume they want people to try very hard to avoid it, because the real rate doesn't sound scary enough, and it's still a fact that hospital systems will be crushed under the weight of numbers if it isn't slowed.

Originally Posted by eeyore1954 View Post
This is the same organization that said something like only 1.2% of those testing positive have no symptoms. Of course because why would they test if they did not have symptoms.
I like to use the cruise ship numbers because I am guessing all were tested. 704 tested positive 6 died and they were all elderly. I read in an article that 50% of those tested on the ship showed no symptoms.


https://www.businessinsider.com/coro...re-mild-2020-2
Absolutely correct - the evidence is there for those who can be bothered looking.

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And you will get fired for missing work? I mean the lies like that young doctor who was assassinated by the chinese government instead of dying from this disease as retribution for letting people know it exists. It doesn't kill people like there therefore is must have been an assasination.


That's a really cool post.

Nobody has said it doesn't kill outside of the aged & infirm.

Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
...not a single shred of evidence to back up the claims being made.
I wouldn't waste my time. It's all been posted in the Covid-19 threads.

Plus it's also much funnier watching people attack Trump when they themselves have no relationship to facts & evidence.

It must be bloody galling to be attacking your pet hate and suddenly realise he's right and you're wrong.
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Old 5th March 2020, 02:15 PM   #567
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COrona Virus or no Virus, feeding Trolls is not a good idea.
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Old 5th March 2020, 03:04 PM   #568
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
I wouldn't waste my time. It's all been posted in the Covid-19 threads.

Plus it's also much funnier watching people attack Trump when they themselves have no relationship to facts & evidence.

It must be bloody galling to be attacking your pet hate and suddenly realise he's right and you're wrong.
This is how a politically-neutral totally-not-a-Trump-defender responds when you request evidence for their claims.
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Old 5th March 2020, 03:44 PM   #569
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Some are. But it sounds to me like her boss was just an a-hole or used it as an excuse to fire her for some other reason s/he had.
No. Plenty of places work like that. Who was the guy who had all the toilet doors removed at his factory?
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Old 5th March 2020, 03:51 PM   #570
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
This is how a politically-neutral totally-not-a-Trump-defender responds when you request evidence for their claims.
Odd thing is the individual we are discussing has been very Anti Trump in his posting history.....until now.
Which is why my Troll Detector is going crazy.
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Old 5th March 2020, 04:06 PM   #571
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
No. Plenty of places work like that. Who was the guy who had all the toilet doors removed at his factory?
So, explain to me why she was fired:
1) because she dared to call in sick or
2) because she then went to work when she was told to or
3) because when she got to work, she was sick like she said in the first place?

Bosses don't like to fire people for no reason. They then have to find a replacement which entails having to interview people and likely being short-handed until they find someone.

I'm not saying your wife did anything wrong, but to claim there are plenty of places that fire someone because they called in sick (unless their absences are causing problems) just doesn't make sense.

I don't see the relevance of the toilet door comment.
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Old 5th March 2020, 04:14 PM   #572
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
This is how a politically-neutral totally-not-a-Trump-defender responds when you request evidence for their claims.
Predictable.

I've shown you where the evidence is. Whether or not you choose to look at it doesn't bother me in the slightest - the facts will expose you in the fullness of time.

Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Odd thing is the individual we are discussing has been very Anti Trump in his posting history.....until now.
Which is why my Troll Detector is going crazy.
I still hate the prick and I'm absolutely not trolling.

Just like I defended China when we can now clearly see now how important their response has been, I'm not going to sit idly by and have people blame Trump for lying when he clearly isn't. He's well ahead of posters in this thread, for starters.

I don't care how big a scumbag someone is - a skeptical approach based on evidence will always beat rhetoric. In this example, he's right and the attackers wrong.

Why would you want to make stuff up to attack the 45th-best president USA has ever had? If you want to attack him, I have a handy list right here: http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=337626
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Old 5th March 2020, 07:12 PM   #573
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Predictable.

I've shown you where the evidence is. Whether or not you choose to look at it doesn't bother me in the slightest - the facts will expose you in the fullness of time.
You make bold and specific claims and refuse to substantiate them with anything more than vagueness and hostility.

You’ve provided no reason to be taken seriously.
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Old 5th March 2020, 09:56 PM   #574
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
You make bold and specific claims and refuse to substantiate them with anything more than vagueness and hostility.
Damn right. Why would I bother posting evidence to satisy guys who have been crying about my "ignorance" as they expose their own?

Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
You’ve provided no reason to be taken seriously.
No need.

I know I'm going to proven correct; enormous amounts of evidence are building to show I'm correct; I'd much rather watch you have to eat your words when President for Life, Donald J Trump is proven right.

Four more years!

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Old 5th March 2020, 10:22 PM   #575
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Damn right. Why would I bother posting evidence to satisy guys who have been crying about my "ignorance" as they expose their own?



No need.

I know I'm going to proven correct; enormous amounts of evidence are building to show I'm correct; I'd much rather watch you have to eat your words when President for Life, Donald J Trump is proven right.

Four more years!

Okay then.
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Old 6th March 2020, 03:14 AM   #576
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Here is some information on different sources of mortality rate estimates, and how reliable they are during an outbreak.

This article is less data heavy, but notes that the WHO's own officials called their estimate "crude", and that it is the first estimate to look at the situation globally rather than in a particular region.

ATM, the range of estimates is from less than 1% to as high as 15.6%, depending on method and region. Most estimates seem to range from about 2% to about 6%. But the main take away is that every method will be imperfect and we can only truly know the mortality rate once the epidemic is over. None of the numbers are "false", and nor is the WHO lying. We cannot yet predict with 100% certainty whether the final figure will be higher or lower than the estimates, although lower is more likely than higher.
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Last edited by Squeegee Beckenheim; 6th March 2020 at 03:16 AM.
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Old 6th March 2020, 11:16 AM   #577
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Why Trump Can't Be In A State Of Denial Anymore About Coronavirus | Morning Joe | MSNBC

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I AGREE
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 6th March 2020, 12:14 PM   #578
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
None of the numbers are "false", and nor is the WHO lying.
It is when it doesn't just fly in the face of known evidence, but craps all over it on the way past.

It's incontrovertibly proven that a large number of cases - almost certainly a majority - have not been tested. (The sole exception is South Korea.)

USA is the perfect example - you are known to have had community infection six weeks before the outbreak was even noticed. This is factual; WHO knows it's factual, yet they continue to avoid it in their calculations. How can that not be dishonest?

And if you don't think it's a lie when the chief of the world body makes a statement that he knows to be false, then you probably need to check the definition of the word lie.

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
We cannot yet predict with 100% certainty whether the final figure will be higher or lower than the estimates, although lower is more likely than higher.
I agree we can't say with 100% certainty, but with reliable data we can get bloody close, and now we have some reliable data - thanks entirely to SK*, it's becoming clearer that the mortality rate is nowhere near 3.4%.

Quote:
"Though there is disagreement about this, some studies have suggested that it is approximately 10 times too high," said Prof Mark Woolhouse, infectious disease specialist at the University of Edinburgh.
Link

More here:

Quote:
What you can safely say, however, is that if you divide the number of reported deaths by the number of reported cases you will almost certainly get the wrong answer, unless, of course, both these biases happen to cancel each other out, and the chances of that will be very slim.”
bolding mine link

That link contains several scientists' opinions and they all say WHO is high. Ranges estimated are 0.3 - 2%.

Best of all, you will be able to have your 100% certainty once serological testing is done after the pandemic ends, but in the meantime, suggesting it's anything like 3% is scaremongering and absolutely false.

Highly amusing again how far people will go to try to prove Trump wrong. He is going to have the last laugh on this one, although the recession it's going to cause may cost him his job anyway.

*South Korea is showing mortality of well under 1%, and as the only country to be doing very widespread testing, their numbers are highly reliable.
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Old 6th March 2020, 02:34 PM   #579
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
COrona Virus or no Virus, feeding Trolls is not a good idea.
With no "trolls" discussion boards would die and of course people always say the other posters are trolls.
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Old 6th March 2020, 02:42 PM   #580
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
It is when it doesn't just fly in the face of known evidence, but craps all over it on the way past.

It's incontrovertibly proven that a large number of cases - almost certainly a majority - have not been tested. (The sole exception is South Korea.)

USA is the perfect example - you are known to have had community infection six weeks before the outbreak was even noticed. This is factual; WHO knows it's factual, yet they continue to avoid it in their calculations. How can that not be dishonest?
When it's impossible to know the real answer, the next best thing is to publish some data,and document the methods used for calculations. That doesn't produce a true answer, and frequently not even a best estimate, but it isn't dishonest.
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Old 6th March 2020, 07:12 PM   #581
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I just watched Trump's CDC news conference.
Now I am even more scared then I was before.
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Old 6th March 2020, 07:13 PM   #582
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Originally Posted by eeyore1954 View Post
With no "trolls" discussion boards would die and of course people always say the other posters are trolls.
You’re the puppet!
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Old 7th March 2020, 01:08 AM   #583
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If you want to attack Trump for comments on Covid-19 that he actually said?

Here's a whole speech full of disgraceful comments: https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...shington-state

Includes this gem:

Quote:
...the president also said he would prefer that cruise ship passengers exposed to the virus be left aboard so that they don’t add to the number of total infections in the US.
Go for your lives.
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Old 7th March 2020, 03:04 AM   #584
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
It is when it doesn't just fly in the face of known evidence, but craps all over it on the way past.

It's incontrovertibly proven that a large number of cases - almost certainly a majority - have not been tested. (The sole exception is South Korea.)

USA is the perfect example - you are known to have had community infection six weeks before the outbreak was even noticed. This is factual; WHO knows it's factual, yet they continue to avoid it in their calculations. How can that not be dishonest?

And if you don't think it's a lie when the chief of the world body makes a statement that he knows to be false, then you probably need to check the definition of the word lie.
Perhaps you ought to check what the statement actually was: https://www.who.int/dg/speeches/deta...--3-march-2020

Quote:
Globally, about 3.4% of reported COVID-19 cases have died.
That's literally what they've said.

Quote:
I agree we can't say with 100% certainty, but with reliable data we can get bloody close, and now we have some reliable data - thanks entirely to SK*, it's becoming clearer that the mortality rate is nowhere near 3.4%.

Link

More here:

bolding mine link

That link contains several scientists' opinions and they all say WHO is high. Ranges estimated are 0.3 - 2%.

Best of all, you will be able to have your 100% certainty once serological testing is done after the pandemic ends, but in the meantime, suggesting it's anything like 3% is scaremongering and absolutely false.

Highly amusing again how far people will go to try to prove Trump wrong. He is going to have the last laugh on this one, although the recession it's going to cause may cost him his job anyway.

*South Korea is showing mortality of well under 1%, and as the only country to be doing very widespread testing, their numbers are highly reliable.
Everything you've written here agrees with what I posted, so I don't really understand why you spent so much time and energy posting it as if it disagreed with me.

Well, apart from the Trump part. I didn't mention Trump at all, unless you count me correctly saying that the WHO figure is not "false".
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Old 7th March 2020, 04:06 AM   #585
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This opinion piece from the Washington Post had me in tears from laughing so hard, I just had to share:

Got a medical question? Ask Dr. Trump!

Quote:
Do you have a nagging medical concern? A rash that won’t go away? Unexplained hearing loss? Are you currently bleeding out from a severed femoral artery?

Well, fret no more. America now has a leading medical expert — some say the best — who will dispense diagnoses and prognoses to all — for free! This bold new telemedicine initiative, “Ask Dr. Trump,” will be offered on an unpredictable but highly frequent basis to all Americans (whether they like it or not).




Fricken priceless.



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Old 7th March 2020, 05:09 AM   #586
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Trump has an obligation to send a very clear message or leave the communication to the experts.
Every Single Time he speaks on the subject, he says something wrong.
There no question whatsoever that people will get sick and die because Trump is downplaying the crisis.
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Old 7th March 2020, 05:50 AM   #587
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Trump has an obligation to ...
that laughing dog emoji
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Old 7th March 2020, 06:01 AM   #588
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I guess the OP's question has been answered, anyway.
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Old 7th March 2020, 06:09 AM   #589
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Breathtaking in the need to believe bad stuff about Trump camp.

Funnily enough, Trump isn't lying, and the WHO is. I have no idea why they are, and I've discussed it in other threads, but they know for certain the fatality rate is nothing like 3.4%.

Ergo, Trump is correct - it is a false number.

The 1% rate is also almost certainly true. He has been talking to some wiser heads, because a huge majority of cases are indeed very mild.

Even morons should be able to recognise this, because evidence confirms Covid-19 has been circulating in USA for at least six weeks before the first community-transmitted case was found.

But thanks for the excellent early morning laugh!

]

You might want to check who's looking like a moron here, because according to every epidemiologist not employed by WHO, Trump is correct. The best estimate of the ultimate fatality rate right now is between 0.5 and 1% - right on the money.



Good summary, except that it's not WHO's estimate that the rate will drop, but they already know it's well under 3.4%. Yes, they know that.

If I were you, I'd be asking why WHO are lying, because they just are. I suspect it's some attempt to scare people into washing their hands, but it as false as India's ministry saying homeopathy cures Covid-19.



He's right, they are. I can prove it mathematically if you like, but I suspect it would be time wasted.



It's no hunch, he's correct. I'd say he's either been talking to the right people or reading the ISF thread on the disease.





Oh boy, does that look spectacularly silly in the face of actual evidence.

Don't worry about being at all skeptical of WHO, though.

Instead of Trump trying to mitigate fear, ask why WHO is encouraging it.
I will say again repeatedly....the WHO did not claim the death rate was 3.4%
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Old 7th March 2020, 06:15 AM   #590
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And Trump visited the CDC and turned it into another ego trip I see. According to a BBC report:

Quote:
US President Donald Trump has suggested he might have "a natural ability" in medical research, as his government fended off criticism of an inadequate response to the coronavirus outbreak.
On a tour of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention in Atlanta, he told reporters: “I like this stuff. I really get it."
Mr Trump said he had had a “great, super-genius uncle” who taught at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/worl...anada-51781573
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Old 7th March 2020, 07:12 AM   #591
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I have been watching a bit of that CDC press conference. Who is that lickspittle with the white beard and glasses?
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Old 7th March 2020, 07:31 AM   #592
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Trump's criticism of the Governor of Washington during his press conference yesterday was truly disgusting.
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Old 7th March 2020, 07:45 AM   #593
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
*South Korea is showing mortality of well under 1%, and as the only country to be doing very widespread testing, their numbers are highly reliable.
I think it is true that South Korea have been ahead of everyone on their testing.

There is a problem with simply taking a "well under 1%" mortality rate, right now though.

The problem is that the vast majority of the cases are "active cases".

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

They have had over 7000 cases, of which only 118 have recovered. No doubt we can be pretty confident that the vast majority of them will also recover, but there are still another 36 listed as "serious" or "critical", as well as the 48 who have died. If no more people die, then yes it could be considered well under 1%. If they all die, it will be around 1.25%.

Furthermore, I don't know how many who have tested positive will later become critical or serious, or even who might die.

Maybe at present, it is really too early to know what the true mortality figures are.
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Old 7th March 2020, 08:05 AM   #594
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Trump has an obligation...
The Führer? Obligations? It is his minions and subject who are obliged to make sure everything runs smoothly, to be lotal in all things, and to obey his every whim.
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Old 7th March 2020, 08:46 AM   #595
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I guess the OP's question has been answered, anyway.
Yeah, he definitely sees the outbreak as an opportunity.

He used the CDC presser as a campaign event.
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Old 7th March 2020, 08:50 AM   #596
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He mostly sees it as a plot against himself. Because everything in the world is only about him.
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Old 7th March 2020, 09:16 AM   #597
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Maybe at present, it is really too early to know what the true mortality figures are.
That's certainly what the WHO have said.

From one of the footnotes from the first article I linked: https://www.who.int/docs/default-sou...rsn=a7158807_4

Quote:
It’s the interaction between the attack rate or the transmissibility of the virus and the severity that give you the outcome. A relatively mild virus can cause a lot of damage if a lot of people get it and this is the issue at the moment. We don’t fully understand either of those parameters well enough to be able to make accurate predictions.

[...]what we can say to date is how many people have died out of those that have been reported to us and I think it’s very early to make any conclusive statements about what the overall mortality rate will be. This number may change. Surveillance is increasing within China but also globally and so when you look at how many people have died, you need to look at how many people were infected and right now we don’t know that number, so it’s early to put a percentage on that. So what we want to focus on is how many have died from how many have been reported.
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Old 7th March 2020, 09:45 AM   #598
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Trump's criticism of the Governor of Washington during his press conference yesterday was truly disgusting.
I didn’t hear them (and don’t doubt they were) but I also feel the governor ‘s comments after Pence called him to offer help were bad.
“"I told him our work would be more successful if the Trump administration stuck to the science and told the truth."
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Old 7th March 2020, 09:53 AM   #599
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Originally Posted by eeyore1954 View Post
I didn’t hear them (and don’t doubt they were) but I also feel the governor ‘s comments after Pence called him to offer help were bad.
“"I told him our work would be more successful if the Trump administration stuck to the science and told the truth."
Why were they bad?

Do you deny that the Trump administration has been saying false and misleading things about the virus?

Or do you think we should all just stick our heads in the sand and ignore it when they do?
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Old 7th March 2020, 11:09 AM   #600
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Originally Posted by eeyore1954 View Post
I didn’t hear them (and don’t doubt they were) but I also feel the governor ‘s comments after Pence called him to offer help were bad.
“"I told him our work would be more successful if the Trump administration stuck to the science and told the truth."
Hmmm.....that one wasn't as widely reported. In the news stories about Trump calling the governor a "snake", it was implied that the governor had criticized Trump in the past.
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