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Tags 2020 elections , Elizabeth Warren , Massachusetts politics , presidential candidates , racial categorization , racial isssues

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Old 12th September 2019, 02:03 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
See, I've yet to encounter even one single person who says they won't vote for Warren in the general because of this issue.
Not one.
Just a lot of people predicting that maybe other people won't.
She is untouchable to many prominent Native American activists over this kerfuffle. Their number might not matter much in the primaries, but their opinion influences a lot of progressives trying to outdo each other in the Woke Olympics. Might that matter? I don't know.

Your point stands though: As I shared in the previous thread, most Native American students I've discussed this with aren't even aware of this issue and they couldn't care less when I explain it.

Should Warren get the nomination and face Trump* in the general I would have ZERO concern about her ability to handle his bloviating nonsense. Clinton was in a box, squelching nearly every impulse to tell that creep where he could stick it. Warren 1) more naturally wears her emotion on her sleeve and 2) saw how far Clinton got playing/feigning nice with Trump.

*This assumes he lives that long or is not otherwise in an Adderral-induced coma by then.
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Old 12th September 2019, 07:34 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Whoever faces Trump needs to be able to look into the eye of the beast without blinking. Think Frodo and Sauron.
I don't think Sauron could look into Trump's eyes and not blink gouge his own eyes out while screaming in horror.

More likely.
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Old 12th September 2019, 07:38 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
You encounter dropdowns like that because of a universal programming rule: any field you allow the user to free text input will let a constant stream of garbage data into your database.
Unless you do good error checking and have murder-drones pre-programmed to seek out and remove problematic users.

Of course, Randall Munroe has an xkcd for every occasion.

This exchange reminded me of one of my favorites.

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Old 12th September 2019, 07:42 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by The Shrike View Post
She is untouchable to many prominent Native American activists over this kerfuffle. Their number might not matter much in the primaries, but their opinion influences a lot of progressives trying to outdo each other in the Woke Olympics. Might that matter? I don't know.

Your point stands though: As I shared in the previous thread, most Native American students I've discussed this with aren't even aware of this issue and they couldn't care less when I explain it.

Should Warren get the nomination and face Trump* in the general I would have ZERO concern about her ability to handle his bloviating nonsense. Clinton was in a box, squelching nearly every impulse to tell that creep where he could stick it. Warren 1) more naturally wears her emotion on her sleeve and 2) saw how far Clinton got playing/feigning nice with Trump.

*This assumes he lives that long or is not otherwise in an Adderral-induced coma by then.

It's not certain that anyone would be able to tell the difference.
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Old 13th September 2019, 01:42 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by The Shrike View Post
She is untouchable to many prominent Native American activists over this kerfuffle. Their number might not matter much in the primaries, but their opinion influences a lot of progressives trying to outdo each other in the Woke Olympics. Might that matter? I don't know.

Your point stands though: As I shared in the previous thread, most Native American students I've discussed this with aren't even aware of this issue and they couldn't care less when I explain it.

Should Warren get the nomination and face Trump* in the general I would have ZERO concern about her ability to handle his bloviating nonsense. Clinton was in a box, squelching nearly every impulse to tell that creep where he could stick it. Warren 1) more naturally wears her emotion on her sleeve and 2) saw how far Clinton got playing/feigning nice with Trump.

*This assumes he lives that long or is not otherwise in an Adderral-induced coma by then.
Stop playing with me! It's cruel.
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Old 13th September 2019, 05:10 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
I don't fault her for that aspect. The problem is, even per the family story, she was fractional. Self-identifying based on a small fraction is dishonest.
What percentage of Irish ancestry is required to wear green on St. Patrick’s Day?
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Old 13th September 2019, 05:16 AM   #47
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Scenario 1: Specify your race as "American Indian" on a form when you know it's just a small fraction of your background.

Scenario 2: Wear green on St Patrick's Day when you aren't Irish.

Guffaw! This absurd comparison doesn't merit a rebuttal.

The lengths people will go to avoid an obvious fact is something to behold.
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Old 13th September 2019, 05:18 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
I don't fault her for that aspect. The problem is, even per the family story, she was fractional. Self-identifying based on a small fraction is dishonest.
Yet we have people in this country who claim Maori tribal ancestral heritage with as little as 1/32nd. Keeping it simple, this means that if such a person had only ONE full Maori ancestor five generations back (A great, great, great grandparent), they would be claiming to be Maori. Is this dishonest? No, it isn't because it has been officially defined.

Before 1974, a Maori was defined as someone who was half-caste or more. The Maori Affairs Amendment Act 1974 redefined a Maori as "a person of the Maori race of New Zealand; and includes any descendant of such a Maori".

So the question I ask, is, has it ever been officially defined in the USA what it takes for a person to be considered "Native American". If it hasn't, then there are no ground rules, and ANY Native American ancestry would count.

IMO, Warren is guilty of only one thing - believing a family story. Its something I can relate to because we have a family story handed down to us by my father, a story that I have believed all my life - that we have Scottish heritage and are descended from the MacDonalds of the Highlands, in particular, Clan Donald, and that we are descendent of survivors of the Glencoe Massacres in 1692.

Turns out it was all BS. Both my sister and I have had DNA testing - we have ZERO Scottish ancestry - not even any Celtic ancestry of any kind. Our ancestry is through Europe - English and French mostly.

Don't believe everything you parents tell you about your family hostory
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Old 13th September 2019, 05:19 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by Kestrel View Post
What percentage of Irish ancestry is required to wear green on St. Patrick’s Day?
Ah, the Plastic Paddy. The blood requirement there is less about DNA and more about alcohol content.
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Old 13th September 2019, 05:20 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post

IMO, Warren is guilty of only one thing - believing a family story.
Then she is guilty of something disqualifying for office.
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Old 13th September 2019, 05:33 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Yet we have people in this country who claim Maori tribal ancestral heritage with as little as 1/32nd. Keeping it simple, this means that if such a person had only ONE full Maori ancestor five generations back (A great, great, great grandparent), they would be claiming to be Maori. Is this dishonest? No, it isn't because it has been officially defined.
I would need to know the specifics of the scenario. It sounds dubious.

You're on the verge of conflating tribal affiliation with ethnic background which confuses things.
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Old 13th September 2019, 05:42 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Then she is guilty of something disqualifying for office.

Oh, so evidently you do value something: You value BS.
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Old 13th September 2019, 05:44 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
Oh, so evidently you do value something: You value BS.
I'm sorry we don't value the same things.
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Old 13th September 2019, 05:46 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I'm sorry we don't value the same things.

No need to apologize, I was just shocked.
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Old 13th September 2019, 06:21 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Yet we have people in this country who claim Maori tribal ancestral heritage with as little as 1/32nd.
At least 29 tribes in the US have no minimum blood quantum requirement for membership. They instead emphasize verified lineal descent, with some Cherokee leaning heavily on the Dawes Rolls for that starting point.

Non-native folks living outside the former Indian Territory that is now the state of Oklahoma are generally naive to how much "Native blood" is actually out there among ostensibly white (and black!) people in Oklahoma. Blonde hair and blue eyes are by no means an indication that a person you meet in Oklahoma is not to some degree Native American.
  1. Some of these people have traced their ancestry, gotten documentation, and pursued official tribal affiliation.
  2. Some have traced their ancestry but didn't have the documentation and have not pursued tribal affiliation even if they might self-identify as Native American in part.
  3. Others think they have that ancestry but they actually don't.

Warren is in that second category, and there are thousands of people in there with her.
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Old 13th September 2019, 06:48 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by The Shrike View Post
ABlonde hair and blue eyes are by no means an indication that a person you meet in Oklahoma is not to some degree Native American.
I used to work with a member of of the Cherokee tribe. She had blue eyes, pale skin and white-blonde hair (and that strong, strong Okie accent). Yet, she had the ancestry and was a tribal member.

I admit, that influences my perception of the Warren ancestry issue. A person can have very little native ancestry, but still be a member of a tribe, still be culturally and legally an American Indian.
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Old 13th September 2019, 07:04 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
The misrepresentations happened so long ago that you're probably right. Still, it's an indicator of a weak personality, and her present day handling of the topic hasn't helped.



Whoever faces Trump needs to be able to look into the eye of the beast without blinking. Think Frodo and Sauron.
Frodo blinked, though.
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Old 13th September 2019, 07:07 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by The Shrike View Post
Non-native folks living outside the former Indian Territory that is now the state of Oklahoma are generally naive to how much "Native blood" is actually out there among ostensibly white (and black!) people in Oklahoma. Blonde hair and blue eyes are by no means an indication that a person you meet in Oklahoma is not to some degree Native American.
  1. Some of these people have traced their ancestry, gotten documentation, and pursued official tribal affiliation.
  2. Some have traced their ancestry but didn't have the documentation and have not pursued tribal affiliation even if they might self-identify as Native American in part.
  3. Others think they have that ancestry but they actually don't.

Warren is in that second category, and there are thousands of people in there with her.
Thank you, yes. I'm in the second category myself—with just over 5% Taíno ancestry—but my wife and kids (whose well-documented Delaware ancestors hail from NE Oklahoma) are all in the first category despite having blue eyes and an even lower "blood quantum" than I do.

A while back, my wife and a friend from down the street made the drive from OKC to Bartlesville to fill out tribal forms and be regaled with oral histories from the sort of folk who keep those stories alive. I mention this just to point out how commonplace tribal membership is around here, and how it is more a matter of voluntary civic involvement than anything else. If you're thinking of "full-blood" native folks growing up on reservations, you are probably thinking of one of the four corners states out west rather than the former Indian Territory.
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Old 13th September 2019, 07:33 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Then she is guilty of something disqualifying for office.
Trump falsely claimed to have Scottish ancestors. Does that disqualify him from office?
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Old 13th September 2019, 07:50 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by Kestrel View Post
Trump falsely claimed to have Scottish ancestors. Does that disqualify him from office?
His mother is from the Hebrides right?
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Old 13th September 2019, 08:35 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by Kestrel View Post
Trump falsely claimed to have Scottish ancestors. Does that disqualify him from office?
The list of Trump's disqualifying qualities is innumerable.
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Old 13th September 2019, 08:39 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
The list of Trump's disqualifying qualities is innumerable.
Hyperbolic exaggeration! The modern version of Excel allows up to two million rows per tab, I'm certain we wouldn't need more than thirty tabs to list them all.
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Old 13th September 2019, 08:52 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
The list of Trump's disqualifying qualities is innumerable.
On the contrary. There are six things that can disqualify someone from the presidency:

1. Age
2. Citizenship
3. Disapproval of the voters
4. Disapproval of the electors
5. Incapacity, as determined by the cabinet and the legislature
6. Disapproval of the legislature

That's it. Not only are Trump's disquaifying qualities totally numerable, they currently number zero.
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Old 13th September 2019, 09:02 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
On the contrary. There are six things that can disqualify someone from the presidency:

1. Age
2. Citizenship
3. Disapproval of the voters
4. Disapproval of the electors
5. Incapacity, as determined by the cabinet and the legislature
6. Disapproval of the legislature

That's it. Not only are Trump's disquaifying qualities totally numerable, they currently number zero.

So the relevance for this thread is that Warren currently has no disqualifications. She is qualified in the first two of your points, untested in the remaining four.
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Old 13th September 2019, 09:08 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
I used to work with a member of of the Cherokee tribe. She had blue eyes, pale skin and white-blonde hair (and that strong, strong Okie accent). Yet, she had the ancestry and was a tribal member.

I admit, that influences my perception of the Warren ancestry issue. A person can have very little native ancestry, but still be a member of a tribe, still be culturally and legally an American Indian.
This may date me a bit, but growing up we got the Mandie books as soon as they came out. She was described as a blonde blue-eyed girl who grows from eleven to eighteen or so over the series, has a full Cherokee grandfather (father's side, hence why her mother? stepmother? hates her) and a white kitten that never grows into an intact tomcat. I am already aware that appearance matters jack **** for determining ancestry.
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Old 13th September 2019, 09:15 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
So the relevance for this thread is that Warren currently has no disqualifications. She is qualified in the first two of your points, untested in the remaining four.
Yep.

I mean, "disapproval of the voters" is really "collective disapproval of a majority of the voters". But the exact reason is going to vary with each individual voter. BobTheCoward might think Warren's ancestry claims are disqualifying, and he's probably not alone. But as far as being the consensus of the majority? Probably not, and impossible to really tell. Opinion polls can only tell us so much, and "why I didn't vote for Warren" isn't going to be a question on the ballot.

So BobTheCoward thinks it's disqualifying, but that's like, just his opinion, man.
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Old 13th September 2019, 10:42 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
It's not certain that anyone would be able to tell the difference.
If he's dead or in a coma, he will stop talking and tweeting. That's the only difference, but it would be noticeable (and a big improvement).
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Old 13th September 2019, 10:54 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
I mention this just to point out how commonplace tribal membership is around here, ...
For me it's numerous requests to provide letters of reference for students applying for some kind of Tribal scholarship or similar. By a big margin, those requests come from students who are phenotypically caucasian. I can see why Warren's claims carry a lot skepticism elsewhere but here in Oklahoma? It's totally normal for a woman who looks like her to have some Native ancestry. We white folks are loaded with biases about this of course, but she looks more Native to me than do A LOT of our verified, tribally-affiliated students.
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Old 13th September 2019, 11:13 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
On the contrary. There are six things that can disqualify someone from the presidency:

1. Age
2. Citizenship
3. Disapproval of the voters
4. Disapproval of the electors
5. Incapacity, as determined by the cabinet and the legislature
6. Disapproval of the legislature

That's it. Not only are Trump's disquaifying qualities totally numerable, they currently number zero.
Sure, if you merely wanna list the bare minimum qualifications. Most of us aren't really satisfied with a bare minimum president. I mean, for example, if you're looking for a way to avoid food poisoning, you can simply stop eating.

"Disapproval" is a subjective term, and of course there's a numbers game involved when it comes to voters, electors, or legislators. Most of us (probably not you) demand, for example, that a president also be Literate, Numerate, Level Headed in a Crisis, and Sane (for a few examples) to truly qualify for the Presidency. I'm not saying those are Constitutional criteria (like you are focusing on) but again, for most people, these are also essential criteria for qualification.

You, individually, can always choose to settle for less of course. Some of us seek something more than bare minimum, however.
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Old 13th September 2019, 11:17 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Yep.

I mean, "disapproval of the voters" is really "collective disapproval of a majority of the voters". But the exact reason is going to vary with each individual voter. BobTheCoward might think Warren's ancestry claims are disqualifying, and he's probably not alone. But as far as being the consensus of the majority? Probably not, and impossible to really tell. Opinion polls can only tell us so much, and "why I didn't vote for Warren" isn't going to be a question on the ballot.

So BobTheCoward thinks it's disqualifying, but that's like, just his opinion, man.

That's not accurate. We all should know that "collective disapproval of a majority of the voters" does not disqualify one from the presidency. Trump didn't even get a plurality and he qualified (in the minimal sense).
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Old 13th September 2019, 11:21 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
Sure, if you merely wanna list the bare minimum qualifications. Most of us aren't really satisfied with a bare minimum president. I mean, for example, if you're looking for a way to avoid food poisoning, you can simply stop eating.



"Disapproval" is a subjective term, and of course there's a numbers game involved when it comes to voters, electors, or legislators. Most of us (probably not you) demand, for example, that a president also be Literate, Numerate, Level Headed in a Crisis, and Sane (for a few examples) to truly qualify for the Presidency. I'm not saying those are Constitutional criteria (like you are focusing on) but again, for most people, these are also essential criteria for qualification.



You, individually, can always choose to settle for less of course. Some of us seek something more than bare minimum, however.
Calm down lol. Horses for courses. It's a Bobbian rebuttal to a Bobbian argument. Don't read more into it than is actually there.
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Old 13th September 2019, 11:26 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
That's not accurate. We all should know that "collective disapproval of a majority of the voters" does not disqualify one from the presidency. Trump didn't even get a plurality and he qualified (in the minimal sense).
Good call out. Earlier I just said "disapproval of the voters" for brevity, even though we all know it's a bit more complicated than that. Feel free to get as detailed as you think the topic requires, about majority of voters in majority of states, etc. I think we're probably all on the same page already, though.
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Old 13th September 2019, 12:09 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by The Shrike View Post
At least 29 tribes in the US have no minimum blood quantum requirement for membership. They instead emphasize verified lineal descent, with some Cherokee leaning heavily on the Dawes Rolls for that starting point.

Non-native folks living outside the former Indian Territory that is now the state of Oklahoma are generally naive to how much "Native blood" is actually out there among ostensibly white (and black!) people in Oklahoma. Blonde hair and blue eyes are by no means an indication that a person you meet in Oklahoma is not to some degree Native American.
  1. Some of these people have traced their ancestry, gotten documentation, and pursued official tribal affiliation.
  2. Some have traced their ancestry but didn't have the documentation and have not pursued tribal affiliation even if they might self-identify as Native American in part.
  3. Others think they have that ancestry but they actually don't.

Warren is in that second category, and there are thousands of people in there with her.
As both of my maternal great grandparents were German citizens, were born in Germany, spoke German and emigrated from Germany, my family always thought they were...well...German. Nuh uh. Turns out they were both of Danish ancestry as my genealogical research and DNA revealed.

Husband's family claimed direct descent from William Penn. Even said so in newspaper clippings from old obituaries. Husband's family is Mormon so they have A LOT of genealogy info. Turns out they couldn't possibly be Penn's descendants as his descendants have been documented very well and none of my husband's ancestors is among them. Turns out the family story got skewed: they descend from a sister of the woman who married Penn. But does that mean my husband's family were lying? Nope. It's what they believe and that misinformation is still being passed down in the family lore.
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Old 13th September 2019, 12:32 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Calm down lol. Horses for courses. It's a Bobbian rebuttal to a Bobbian argument. Don't read more into it than is actually there.

Oh, I'm quite calm. I'm just calmly reminding you we don't have to keep our qualifications to a minimum; it's OK to have higher standards.

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Good call out. Earlier I just said "disapproval of the voters" for brevity, even though we all know it's a bit more complicated than that. Feel free to get as detailed as you think the topic requires, about majority of voters in majority of states, etc. I think we're probably all on the same page already, though.

Yeah, I think we are on the same page, but I just wanted to point out it's not a majority of voters in a majority of states (that's neither necessary nor sufficient), it's a plurality in each of a collection of states having at least 270 electoral votes (ignoring potential split electoral votes in Maine or Nebraska).
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Old 13th September 2019, 12:51 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
I don't fault her for that aspect. The problem is, even per the family story, she was fractional. Self-identifying based on a small fraction is dishonest.
There is not a single white person born to Southern parents who does not endlessly trumpet “Native American “ ancestry.

Every one does it. It is as ingrained as the Lost Cause narrative.
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Old 13th September 2019, 01:07 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Then she is guilty of something disqualifying for office.
When did ignorance become a disqualifier?

Agree with her politics or not, what she did was exactly as smartcooky described.
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Old 13th September 2019, 03:38 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by autumn1971 View Post
There is not a single white person born to Southern parents who does not endlessly trumpet “Native American “ ancestry.

Every one does it. It is as ingrained as the Lost Cause narrative.
"Trumpeting ancestry" could mean a lot of things. It could mean a mention of an NA ancestor. Or it could mean an untruthful racial self-identification, ala Warren. If the latter is the case, these people should expect uncomfortable scrutiny if/when they run for POTUS.
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Old 13th September 2019, 03:56 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
So the relevance for this thread is that Warren currently has no disqualifications. She is qualified in the first two of your points, untested in the remaining four.
Ouch! I'll bet Bob wasn't expecting that!
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Last edited by smartcooky; 13th September 2019 at 03:57 PM.
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Old 13th September 2019, 04:07 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Ouch! I'll bet Bob wasn't expecting that!
I have a vested interested in reclaiming the name.
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Old 13th September 2019, 04:09 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by Kestrel View Post
What percentage of Irish ancestry is required to wear green on St. Patrick’s Day?

One of my ancestors was born in Glasgow, grew up in Londonderry (i.e. Scots-Irish or "Ulster Scot"), and emigrated to the colonies in 1720, at the age of twenty three.

Would that count?
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