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Tags 2020 elections , Elizabeth Warren , Massachusetts politics , presidential candidates , racial categorization , racial isssues

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Old 15th September 2019, 10:10 AM   #121
Giordano
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
How Jewish are you? My mom is Jewish and my dad's mom is Jewish. (Both secular.) Will the Orthodox let me in?
Both mom and dad Jewish. As were grandparents and all other ancestors as far as I know from the family narrative.. Haven't checked my DNA because Trump has not demanded it of me. How do you know about your own Jewishness? Probably the same way as I: you learned about it from family lore, the same way Warren learned about her more distant connection to Native American ancestry. None of us had any reason to question it but unlike me (and maybe unlike you) Warren has DNA proof. As I see it Warren has more proof of a Native American ancestry than I do of a Jewish one.

Again I return to my original statement. The facts are clear but the interpretation is subjective. Warren indicated Native American as ethnic identity on one form. She does have Native American ancestry. But you do not believe she is adequately Native American to justify it and she "knew so" and was knowingly lying. But the latter is NOT a fact; ethnic identity is complex and very subjective. Mny people have very mixed ethnic backgrounds. I work at a university and forms asking ethnic identity are common. We are repeatedly told that it is the person filling out the form who solely determines their own ethnic identity: there are no other criteria or tests of any kind. If they see themselves as Native American that is who they are. I can see many scenarios wherein Warren felt at the time her answer was appropriate. In fact she appears to have learned more since then, apologized, and now shares your view she should not have filled out the form as she had.

Nonethelessless you feel that Warren's behavior in this regard is inexcusable and questions her character.. Fine, that is one possible opinion. I have a different opinion. But the facts are not different.

BTW: my point about the orthodox was related: interpretations of the same facts can differ. My mom was Jewish, I was nipped at birth, I was bar mitzvahed, etc. Many people consider those facts enough to subjectively agree with me that I am Jewish. But the ultra orthodox who live near where I grew up strongly disagree: in their subjective opinion these facts are not adequate to establish me as Jewish because I fall short in other criteria (chiefly because I am not observant enough in the other ways they believe are necessary). Am I lying if I knowingly wrote in "Jewish" on a form? An ultra-orthodox would think so but that is an opinion, not a fact.

But my most important conclusion right now is that we both have a legitimate right to our opinions and I don't think there is much more to debate.

Last edited by Giordano; 15th September 2019 at 10:23 AM.
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Old 15th September 2019, 11:30 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
She is not native.
She's native enough that the US Government would have rounded up her family and marched her to Oklahoma if she had been born at that time.
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Old 15th September 2019, 01:03 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey View Post
She's native enough that the US Government would have rounded up her family and marched her to Oklahoma if she had been born at that time.
Yeah, with all these "she isn't native" claims, the question is this: How much Native American ancestry is required in order to describe oneself of Native American heritage? I'd really like to hear where that line is, and, more importantly, why it has to be there?

There was a nice post above that talked about the things taken into consideration in this assessment (blood vs tribal tradition, etc), which seemed reasonable, and certainly did not make it clear that she was wrong. But apparently, others disagree. So where is the line, and how is it determined legally?
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Old 15th September 2019, 01:07 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
Yeah, with all these "she isn't native" claims, the question is this: How much Native American ancestry is required in order to describe oneself of Native American heritage? I'd really like to hear where that line is, and, more importantly, why it has to be there?

There was a nice post above that talked about the things taken into consideration in this assessment (blood vs tribal tradition, etc), which seemed reasonable, and certainly did not make it clear that she was wrong. But apparently, others disagree. So where is the line, and how is it determined legally?
I don't care how it is determined legally. My answer is 25%.
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Old 15th September 2019, 01:11 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey View Post
She's native enough that the US Government would have rounded up her family and marched her to Oklahoma if she had been born at that time.
Regardless of where she was living at the time?
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Old 15th September 2019, 01:43 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey View Post
She's native enough that the US Government would have rounded up her family and marched her to Oklahoma if she had been born at that time.
Her family actually did the rounding up at that time.
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Old 15th September 2019, 01:48 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I don't care how it is determined legally. My answer is 25%.

Some people probably don't even have a 25% plurality of any ethnicity. Now, I don't think it's necessary that we label anyone as being a certain ethnicity, but it's absurd to put universal minimum standards to claim an ethnicity:

It's entirely possible for a person to be exactly 1/64 Native American and for that 1/64 to be a plurality of his/her ethnicities. It's absolutely asinine to claim such a person is lying when they say they are NA.
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Old 15th September 2019, 01:56 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Her family actually did the rounding up at that time.
1. That's not mutually exclusive with Silly Green Monkey's claim.

2. I couldn't find a solid cite of this, anyway. I saw a reference to "maybe" one of her ancestor's was involved in the rounding up.

Did you have a point, or is this simply another example of your perpetual bitching and whining about Democrats? Open your eyes, man: If, as it seems to me, that bitching and whining is simply your thing, there's a lot more bitching and whining to be done about Republicans.
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Old 15th September 2019, 02:02 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I don't care how it is determined legally. My answer is 25%.
1) You don't get to determine that. The tribes do. This is important to them of course culturally and historically, but it really matters legally when it comes to things like eligibility for Tribal benefits, who is affected under treaties, etc.

2) Twenty-five percent is indeed a minimum criterion for many tribes. Others – including the Cherokee and Delaware relevant to Warren's case – do not have a blood quantum criterion. If one can trace an ancestor to the Dawes Rolls* or otherwise have an elder vouch for their lineal descent then they could potentially become a Tribal member with as little actual 'Native DNA' as Warren has – or even less.

*Note that there are lots of reasons one's family could have been left off the rolls 1898–1914.
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Old 15th September 2019, 02:21 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by The Shrike View Post
1) You don't get to determine that. The tribes do. This is important to them of course culturally and historically, but it really matters legally when it comes to things like eligibility for Tribal benefits, who is affected under treaties, etc.

2) Twenty-five percent is indeed a minimum criterion for many tribes. Others – including the Cherokee and Delaware relevant to Warren's case – do not have a blood quantum criterion. If one can trace an ancestor to the Dawes Rolls* or otherwise have an elder vouch for their lineal descent then they could potentially become a Tribal member with as little actual 'Native DNA' as Warren has – or even less.

*Note that there are lots of reasons one's family could have been left off the rolls 1898–1914.
I wasn't talking about tribes. 25% of anything.
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Old 15th September 2019, 02:32 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I wasn't talking about tribes. 25% of anything.


LOL! That means you were talking about tribes: Tribes are a subset of "anything"

Logic, man. Use it.
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Old 15th September 2019, 02:39 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
LOL! That means you were talking about tribes: Tribes are a subset of "anything"

Logic, man. Use it.
I meant j was being far more expansive than about indigenous ancestry.
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Old 15th September 2019, 02:48 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
Some people probably don't even have a 25% plurality of any ethnicity. Now, I don't think it's necessary that we label anyone as being a certain ethnicity, but it's absurd to put universal minimum standards to claim an ethnicity:

It's entirely possible for a person to be exactly 1/64 Native American and for that 1/64 to be a plurality of his/her ethnicities. It's absolutely asinine to claim such a person is lying when they say they are NA.
I didn't say a person not hitting 25% but saying that thing would be lying. I would just reject their assertion.

And in your example that person would be absent an ethnicity. That would be pretty cool.
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Old 15th September 2019, 07:10 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I didn't say a person not hitting 25% but saying that thing would be lying. I would just reject their assertion.

And in your example that person would be absent an ethnicity. That would be pretty cool.


I'm almost 25% Swiss - one of my distant ancestors in the Swiss part of my family was actually German (a man called Heinrich Baumgartner - not the actor). If I called myself Swiss despite "not hitting 25%", would you reject that assertion?.
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Old 15th September 2019, 07:17 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
I'm almost 25% Swiss - one of my distant ancestors in the Swiss part of my family was actually German (an man called Heinrich Baumgartner - not the actor). If I called myself Swiss despite "not hitting 25%", would you reject that assertion?.
Yes
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Old 15th September 2019, 07:28 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Yes
Good.

Now I'll further add, that I hold a Swiss passport (I have Swiss citizenship) and I am therefore entitled to live and work there as of right (and I would be required to serve in their armed forces too). Were I to go to Switzerland to live, I would be entitled to receive a government pension.

Still think I don't meet the criteria to call myself Swiss?
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Old 15th September 2019, 08:39 PM   #137
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Good.

Now I'll further add, that I hold a Swiss passport (I have Swiss citizenship) and I am therefore entitled to live and work there as of right (and I would be required to serve in their armed forces too). Were I to go to Switzerland to live, I would be entitled to receive a government pension.

Still think I don't meet the criteria to call myself Swiss?
Yes, I still think that. You are not ethnically Swiss. Not a hard concept. I wouldn't call Giannis ethnically Greek either.
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Old 15th September 2019, 09:13 PM   #138
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This thread has turned into such a *********** that I want everyone to know that I have just placed this entire thread on ignore.*




*Don't bother responding to this because thanks to User Control Panel I won't even be able to see my own comments in this thread. Thanks for your Verständniß!**



**Yes, I know it was deprecated in 1902 and obsolete but I still like the eszett.
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Old 15th September 2019, 11:43 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
I would need to know the specifics of the scenario. It sounds dubious.

You're on the verge of conflating tribal affiliation with ethnic background which confuses things.
Yeah. No.

One drop rule. the way she supposedly Identified herself was the exact way that certain powerful white people wanted. And given that "race" isn't only minimally about ancestry, and much more about sociopolitical concerns (money, political power, etc.), I see no problem whatsoever here.

Now, the fact that she can't actually guarantee that she has any actual Native American tribe, which is not done via genetic test, is a separate issue, but I have little issue with unimportant family legends that were, at most, used to get a recipe into a cookbook.

(This reminds me of people who used to say "Obama's not black, he's bi-racial!" Shut up, he had a white mother and a black father, in the US that means he's black, don't go trying to claim he, and only he, isn't, just because he won the democratic primary in 2008...")
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Old 16th September 2019, 12:02 AM   #140
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
No. I didn't say the weren't in some way related. The family story is that they are direct descendants of Penn. They are in no way biologically related to Penn and certainly not direct descendants.

But thanks for explaining about 'related through marriage'. I've never have understood the concept otherwise.
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Old 16th September 2019, 12:17 AM   #141
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
Both mom and dad Jewish. As were grandparents and all other ancestors as far as I know from the family narrative.. Haven't checked my DNA because Trump has not demanded it of me. How do you know about your own Jewishness? Probably the same way as I: you learned about it from family lore, the same way Warren learned about her more distant connection to Native American ancestry. None of us had any reason to question it but unlike me (and maybe unlike you) Warren has DNA proof. As I see it Warren has more proof of a Native American ancestry than I do of a Jewish one.

Again I return to my original statement. The facts are clear but the interpretation is subjective. Warren indicated Native American as ethnic identity on one form. She does have Native American ancestry. But you do not believe she is adequately Native American to justify it and she "knew so" and was knowingly lying. But the latter is NOT a fact; ethnic identity is complex and very subjective. Mny people have very mixed ethnic backgrounds. I work at a university and forms asking ethnic identity are common. We are repeatedly told that it is the person filling out the form who solely determines their own ethnic identity: there are no other criteria or tests of any kind. If they see themselves as Native American that is who they are. I can see many scenarios wherein Warren felt at the time her answer was appropriate. In fact she appears to have learned more since then, apologized, and now shares your view she should not have filled out the form as she had.

Nonethelessless you feel that Warren's behavior in this regard is inexcusable and questions her character.. Fine, that is one possible opinion. I have a different opinion. But the facts are not different.

BTW: my point about the orthodox was related: interpretations of the same facts can differ. My mom was Jewish, I was nipped at birth, I was bar mitzvahed, etc. Many people consider those facts enough to subjectively agree with me that I am Jewish. But the ultra orthodox who live near where I grew up strongly disagree: in their subjective opinion these facts are not adequate to establish me as Jewish because I fall short in other criteria (chiefly because I am not observant enough in the other ways they believe are necessary). Am I lying if I knowingly wrote in "Jewish" on a form? An ultra-orthodox would think so but that is an opinion, not a fact.

But my most important conclusion right now is that we both have a legitimate right to our opinions and I don't think there is much more to debate.
Self-identification, sure. But how would you draw the line between someone who thinks they are Native American and another who claims they are Napoleon/ the Jedi or even Jewish because a great-great-grandparent eight generations back had a 'Jewish' name?
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Old 16th September 2019, 12:20 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Good.

Now I'll further add, that I hold a Swiss passport (I have Swiss citizenship) and I am therefore entitled to live and work there as of right (and I would be required to serve in their armed forces too). Were I to go to Switzerland to live, I would be entitled to receive a government pension.

Still think I don't meet the criteria to call myself Swiss?
You do, because you are culturally Swiss and have Swiss nationality.
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Old 16th September 2019, 12:32 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I despair.
Now you know how we feel in the Knox thread.
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Old 16th September 2019, 12:38 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Now you know how we feel in the Knox thread.
'We'? A team of PR trolls? Logical fallacy: appealing to the crowd.

Saddam had millions of supporters.
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Old 16th September 2019, 12:41 AM   #145
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post

Husband's family claimed direct descent from William Penn. Even said so in newspaper clippings from old obituaries. Husband's family is Mormon so they have A LOT of genealogy info. Turns out they couldn't possibly be Penn's descendants as his descendants have been documented very well and none of my husband's ancestors is among them. Turns out the family story got skewed: they descend from a sister of the woman who married Penn. But does that mean my husband's family were lying? Nope. It's what they believe and that misinformation is still being passed down in the family lore.
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
He'd be related via Penn and his wife being a sister of your husband's ancestor, of the Great Aunt variety.
>snipped for irrelevancy<
The point, uncles and aunts are pretty close relatives as they are the siblings of one's parents: pretty much the same genes, so your husband is not incorrect, if Penn and his wife had offspring, to make the wife's sister's children first cousins.
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
No.
Quote:
I didn't say the weren't in some way related. The family story is that they are direct descendants of Penn. They are in no way biologically related to Penn and certainly not direct descendants.
But thanks for explaining about 'related through marriage'. I've never have understood the concept otherwise.
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I despair.
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Now you know how we feel in the Knox thread.
Exactly what part of DIRECT DESCENDANT of WILLIAM PENN are you not understanding?

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Old 16th September 2019, 12:42 AM   #146
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
'We'? A team of PR trolls? Logical fallacy: appealing to the crowd.

Saddam had millions of supporters.
That was not a logical fallacy. Try again.
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Old 16th September 2019, 12:59 AM   #147
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Exactly what part of DIRECT DESCENDANT of WILLIAM PENN are you not understanding?
ISTM that someone in your husband's family got their definitions mixed up rather than it being a case of a 'false family story' which has no foundation in reality.
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Old 16th September 2019, 01:17 AM   #148
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
You do, because you are culturally Swiss and have Swiss nationality.
Try explaining that to Bob

ETA: Actually, don't bother. It will be a wasted effort
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Old 16th September 2019, 01:27 AM   #149
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
ISTM that someone in your husband's family got their definitions mixed up rather than it being a case of a 'false family story' which has no foundation in reality.
ISTM that you're the one who got mixed up. There was no 'definition" mix up. I'm pretty sure they knew the difference between "directly descended from William Penn" and "directly descended from Penn's wife's sister". It was a false family story, plain and simple.
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Old 16th September 2019, 01:33 AM   #150
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
ISTM that you're the one who got mixed up. There was no 'definition" mix up. I'm pretty sure they knew the difference between "directly descended from William Penn" and "directly descended from Penn's wife's sister". It was a false family story, plain and simple.

This

Any genealogist will tell you that you are not a decendant of person "A" by being a descendant of his sister-in-law.
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Old 16th September 2019, 01:39 AM   #151
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
This

Any genealogist will tell you that you are not a decendant of person "A" by being a descendant of his sister-in-law.
Yes. I've never claimed to be descended FROM George Washington (he had no known children) but I am descended from a common gr gr gr whatever number grandfather. Washington's mother, Mary Ball, was the first cousin of my direct ancestor. That makes me distantly related to, but not descended from, him.
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Old 16th September 2019, 05:32 AM   #152
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Try explaining that to Bob

ETA: Actually, don't bother. It will be a wasted effort
Culture has nothing to do with it. If Ueli Maurer started actively rejecting every Swiss cultural element in his life I would say that Swiss dude is rejecting it. He doesn't stop being Swiss.
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Old 16th September 2019, 05:38 AM   #153
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Clearly.
I expected an actual explanation. How is it dishonest?
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Old 16th September 2019, 05:43 AM   #154
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If I'm following this garbage barge correctly the latest consensus is that Warren isn't Native American but she may be a Swiss descendent of William Penn's wife's sister. I don't like that but I don't consider it disqualification from office and am still willing to vote for her provided she never appears in public in a dirndl, or bores holes in other people's cheeses, or installs cuckoo clocks where people can hear them go off all night instead of sleeping.
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Old 16th September 2019, 05:59 AM   #155
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
Both mom and dad Jewish. As were grandparents and all other ancestors as far as I know from the family narrative.. Haven't checked my DNA because Trump has not demanded it of me. How do you know about your own Jewishness? Probably the same way as I: you learned about it from family lore, the same way Warren learned about her more distant connection to Native American ancestry. None of us had any reason to question it but unlike me (and maybe unlike you) Warren has DNA proof. As I see it Warren has more proof of a Native American ancestry than I do of a Jewish one.
My sister's DNA test proved my ethnicity. But that wasn't a surprise at all, what with grandparents who speak yiddish. Plus the Alan Sherman records.


Quote:
Again I return to my original statement. The facts are clear but the interpretation is subjective. Warren indicated Native American as ethnic identity on one form. She does have Native American ancestry. But you do not believe she is adequately Native American to justify it and she "knew so" and was knowingly lying. But the latter is NOT a fact; ethnic identity is complex and very subjective.
I don't buy the subjectivity one bit. Cultural identity, sure. Not racial identity. Otherwise we need to recognize Rachel What's Her Name as an African-American.

I consider it a fact that Warren lied. So no, we don't have consensus on the facts.

Quote:
Mny people have very mixed ethnic backgrounds.
Yes. When you're 1/4 X, 1/4 Y, 1/4 Z, and 1/4 unknown, it's not clear cut. This doesn't apply to Warren.

Quote:
Nonethelessless you feel that Warren's behavior in this regard is inexcusable and questions her character.
Nope. I see why you may have reached this conclusion. But I haven't written this nor do I think it.

Quote:
BTW: my point about the orthodox was related: interpretations of the same facts can differ. My mom was Jewish, I was nipped at birth, I was bar mitzvahed, etc. Many people consider those facts enough to subjectively agree with me that I am Jewish. But the ultra orthodox who live near where I grew up strongly disagree: in their subjective opinion these facts are not adequate to establish me as Jewish because I fall short in other criteria (chiefly because I am not observant enough in the other ways they believe are necessary). Am I lying if I knowingly wrote in "Jewish" on a form? An ultra-orthodox would think so but that is an opinion, not a fact.
I don't give much weight to irrational rules conceived by religious nuts.

Quote:
But my most important conclusion right now is that we both have a legitimate right to our opinions and I don't think there is much more to debate.
Fine. I still chose to share these thoughts for your consideration.
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Old 16th September 2019, 06:07 AM   #156
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If I am born in the United States, and My DNA is 1/4 Scottish, 1/4 German, 1/4 Macedonian, 1/4 English, I have no claim to citizenship from any of those countries.

If I am born in the United States, and My DNA is 1/4 Cherokee, 1/4 German, 1/4 English, 1/4 Italian, and I have evidence that my Cherokee ancestor was on the Dawes Rolls, then I can claim Native American Citizenship in the Cherokee Nation.

If I am born in the United States, and My DNA is 1/4 Cherokee, 1/4 German, 1/4 English, 1/4 Italian, and I have no evidence that my Cherokee ancestor was on the Dawes Rolls, then I cannot claim Native American Citizenship in the Cherokee Nation.

In other words, my grandfather could be 100% Cherokee blood, but if none of his ancestors were on the Dawes Rolls it would not allow membership.
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Old 16th September 2019, 06:16 AM   #157
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I expected an actual explanation. How is it dishonest?
I expected that you would see what I wrote in response to other posters. Warren wasn't opining on her fractional background. She specifically claimed a racial identity. She knew full well she wasn't an "American Indian" yet claimed she was. She has apologized for it.

What about Rachel What's Her Name? Can we safely say she was lying when she claimed to be African-American?
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Old 16th September 2019, 06:38 AM   #158
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If some subgroup puts self imposed limits on who gets to be "in the club" beyond that which is used in other contexts, that's their problem to deal with, not ours.

Again we don't have to accommodate any group's "No True Scotsman"ing.

If Ted was born in Ireland, other Irish people don't get to tell him "he's not really Irish." If Ted's grandfather was born in Ireland, Irish people living in Ireland don't get to tell him he's not "Irish descended."

The rules seem to be different for Native Americans, I'm assuming because of "Shut up Colonizer, I refer you to the official victim ranking chart..."
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Old 16th September 2019, 06:51 AM   #159
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
If some subgroup puts self imposed limits on who gets to be "in the club" beyond that which is used in other contexts, that's their problem to deal with, not ours.

Again we don't have to accommodate any group's "No True Scotsman"ing.

If Ted was born in Ireland, other Irish people don't get to tell him "he's not really Irish." If Ted's grandfather was born in Ireland, Irish people living in Ireland don't get to tell him he's not "Irish descended."

The rules seem to be different for Native Americans, I'm assuming because of "Shut up Colonizer, I refer you to the official victim ranking chart..."
Reminds me of people arguing about music, whether a given artist or piece is or isn't "really" X genre of music. The categories are not mathematical, they are not so clear cut that everyone can agree on definitions and placement. And yet broad consensus occurs much of the time, even though the classifications are not perfect. People can legitimately argue whether The Offspring are punk or not, but nobody thinks Bing Crosby was.
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Old 16th September 2019, 07:02 AM   #160
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It looks very similar to stolen valor.

If a non-veteran politician put their name in a veteran directory, and said it was because they wanted to hang out with veterans, i'd say bull.

If a non-minority politician put their name in a minority directory, and said it was because they wanted to hang out with other minorities, i'd say bull.
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