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Tags 2020 elections , Elizabeth Warren , Massachusetts politics , presidential candidates , racial categorization , racial isssues

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Old 16th September 2019, 07:04 AM   #161
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
It looks very similar to stolen valor.

If a non-veteran politician put their name in a veteran directory, and said it was because they wanted to hang out with veterans, i'd say bull.

If a non-minority politician put their name in a minority directory, and said it was because they wanted to hang out with other minorities, i'd say bull.
I disagree. Representing oneself falsely as a veteran is a false claim about one's own actions. Misrepresenting heritage, knowingly or not, is about one's ancestors. I think the latter is far less serious a fault.
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Old 16th September 2019, 07:06 AM   #162
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
If I am born in the United States, and My DNA is 1/4 Scottish, 1/4 German, 1/4 Macedonian, 1/4 English, I have no claim to citizenship from any of those countries.

If I am born in the United States, and My DNA is 1/4 Cherokee, 1/4 German, 1/4 English, 1/4 Italian, and I have evidence that my Cherokee ancestor was on the Dawes Rolls, then I can claim Native American Citizenship in the Cherokee Nation.

If I am born in the United States, and My DNA is 1/4 Cherokee, 1/4 German, 1/4 English, 1/4 Italian, and I have no evidence that my Cherokee ancestor was on the Dawes Rolls, then I cannot claim Native American Citizenship in the Cherokee Nation.

In other words, my grandfather could be 100% Cherokee blood, but if none of his ancestors were on the Dawes Rolls it would not allow membership.
This always seem very strange to me, it seems to be a peculiarity of Americans.

On my maternal side one generation back everyone was born in Wales, on the paternal side one grand was Welsh the other born in England, but 2 generations back on the paternal side and they were all born on Wales.

I was born in England, I am English, I am not any percentage Welsh.
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Old 16th September 2019, 07:08 AM   #163
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
This always seem very strange to me, it seems to be a peculiarity of Americans.

On my maternal side one generation back everyone was born in Wales, on the paternal side one grand was Welsh the other born in England, but 2 generations back on the paternal side and they were all born on Wales.

I was born in England, I am English, I am not any percentage Welsh.
You're just trying to distance yourself from Prince Charles. It's okay: even though he's prince of the place he's not actually Welsh. He's German.
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Old 16th September 2019, 07:15 AM   #164
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
You're just trying to distance yourself from Prince Charles. It's okay: even though he's prince of the place he's not actually Welsh. He's German.
That's a myth. He is only part German.
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Old 16th September 2019, 07:19 AM   #165
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
That's a myth. He is only part German.
And the rest is xanthan gum filler and flavoring agents, yes, we know. The point is Prince Charles is terrible for your health and should be banned.
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Old 16th September 2019, 07:22 AM   #166
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In most cases once you go back more than 2-3 generations National Identity becomes so functionally different from how we use it now that it becomes meaningless. The Nation State as a concept isn't that old and someone calling themselves "German" now and someone calling themselves "German" in 1830 are saying two very, very different things.
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Old 16th September 2019, 07:35 AM   #167
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
ISTM that you're the one who got mixed up. There was no 'definition" mix up. I'm pretty sure they knew the difference between "directly descended from William Penn" and "directly descended from Penn's wife's sister". It was a false family story, plain and simple.
You should at least be consistent in your views. On the one hand you argue that Elizabeth Warren is right to call herself Native American based on her 1/32 - 1/1024 DNA result and because of a faded black and white photo in which one of her relatives 'has high cheekbones' so 'could be Native American'.

Yet your own husband's family who have proven that William Penn is their Great Uncle are fantastists who have been fed a 'false family story' and so their claim can be dismissed with a wave of the hand.
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Old 16th September 2019, 07:38 AM   #168
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
In most cases once you go back more than 2-3 generations National Identity becomes so functionally different from how we use it now that it becomes meaningless. The Nation State as a concept isn't that old and someone calling themselves "German" now and someone calling themselves "German" in 1830 are saying two very, very different things.
It becomes meaningless to some. To others it can be an excuse to discriminate against others. Just ask the Japanese whether third generation Koreans in Japan are Japanese or not.
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Old 16th September 2019, 07:39 AM   #169
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
This always seem very strange to me, it seems to be a peculiarity of Americans.

On my maternal side one generation back everyone was born in Wales, on the paternal side one grand was Welsh the other born in England, but 2 generations back on the paternal side and they were all born on Wales.

I was born in England, I am English, I am not any percentage Welsh.
Ah but can you sing? That's the true test. See you, boyo.
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Old 16th September 2019, 08:09 AM   #170
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post

I consider it a fact that Warren lied. So no, we don't have consensus on the facts.
Do you have evidence that Warren's intent was to deceive? If not, then we do have consensus on the facts: You are wrong; she didn't lie.
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Old 16th September 2019, 10:26 AM   #171
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
Do you have evidence that Warren's intent was to deceive? If not, then we do have consensus on the facts: You are wrong; she didn't lie.
Perhaps a Mistake of Fact? A wonder she didn't kill anyone over it.
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Old 16th September 2019, 11:14 AM   #172
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post

I find this comparison unconvincing for two reasons: (1) For all practical purposes, you didn't misrepresent yourself. You were legally qualified to make the purchase. Whereas Warren misrepresented herself.
The reason I didn't misrepresent myself was because I perceived (correctly) that the intent of asking for my birthdate was to determine if I was over 21.

In Warren's case, there is a question of what she perceived the purpose of the field she filled in to be. There's a little ambiguity there, but at least the charitable interpretation based on her statements is that she thought it might be used to pull names for demographic based events and not much more of consequence.

I'm not sure I've seen much of a case about what it was truly and practically used for. Some critics have made some assumptions that it related to diversity quotas or affirmative action or hiring, but those don't seem very well supported.

It does seem that whatever purpose it served, it wasn't actually used for what Warren stated she hoped it might. But her action would only be a misrepresentation to the extent that she knew the way it was intended to be used and intended to subvert that intent. If the practical use of the form lined up with the use suggested by her comments, then that would not be a deception.

If it didn't line up, then she would be mistaken, not lying. Just like if I were mistaken about the purpose of the liquor birthdate prompt and they really wanted to get astrological sign demographics from their customers, it wouldn't make me dishonest because I made a bad guess about the purpose of the prompt.

Now being wrong about the purpose of the prompt might show poor awareness or judgement on Warren's part, even if it didn't show dishonesty.


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(2) That's a far more casual scenario.
It is more casual, but what role does formality play in dishonesty? It can be a more or less severe issue due to the consequences at play, but that doesn't change the core nature.

And while a field in employment paperwork should be taken seriously, there's a LOT of paperwork in a lot of jobs that is complete BS. Not everything people have to fill out for work is of meaningful import. There are a lot of TPS reports.
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Old 16th September 2019, 11:22 AM   #173
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
Do you have evidence that Warren's intent was to deceive? If not, then we do have consensus on the facts: You are wrong; she didn't lie.
We know that Warren misrepresented her racial identity. And it's reasonably clear that she's not delusional. That makes it a lie. She's even apologized for it. Do you think her apology is insincere?

Are you familiar with Rachel Dolezal? She was the head of an NAACP chapter. She claimed to be African-American. In fact, she's zero percent African-American. And unless she was completely delusional, she knew this. According to you, did she also not lie?
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Old 16th September 2019, 11:36 AM   #174
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
You should at least be consistent in your views. On the one hand you argue that Elizabeth Warren is right to call herself Native American based on her 1/32 - 1/1024 DNA result and because of a faded black and white photo in which one of her relatives 'has high cheekbones' so 'could be Native American'.
Citation? Good luck. Your reading comprehension leaves much to be desired.

Quote:
Yet your own husband's family who have proven that William Penn is their Great Uncle are fantastists who have been fed a 'false family story' and so their claim can be dismissed with a wave of the hand.
How your brain works in order to get that from my posts is anyone's guess. Maybe someone else here can explain it, because I certainly can't. Anyone? Anyone care to step up and explain it?

Just stop, Vixen. Your complete inability to ever admit you made a mistake is glaringly obvious once again. Stop embarrassing yourself.
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Old 16th September 2019, 11:37 AM   #175
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
In Warren's case, there is a question of what she perceived the purpose of the field she filled in to be. There's a little ambiguity there, but at least the charitable interpretation based on her statements is that she thought it might be used to pull names for demographic based events and not much more of consequence.
I suspect you're conflating two events. The demographic based events emanate from her entries in a directory at Harvard. The charitable interpretation might well be correct. The form she submitted to the Texas bar where she wrote our her race as American Indian isn't so ambiguous. This wasn't a check all that apply format. More like:

RACE: American Indian
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Old 16th September 2019, 11:41 AM   #176
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
How your brain works in order to get that from my posts is anyone's guess. Maybe someone else here can explain it, because I certainly can't. Anyone? Anyone care to step up and explain it?
She's on one of her "I'm right and you're wrong no matter what you say" crusades?
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Old 16th September 2019, 11:44 AM   #177
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
I suspect you're conflating two events. The demographic based events emanate from her entries in a directory at Harvard. The charitable interpretation might well be correct. The form she submitted to the Texas bar where she wrote our her race as American Indian isn't so ambiguous. This wasn't a check all that apply format. More like:

RACE: American Indian
That makes it somewhat less casual, but I'm not so sure it changes the core evaluation here.

Whether her action there is read as deceipt, mistake, incompetence or nothing of consquence still hinges on what she thought the purpose of the prompt was.

The difference between checking a box or writing two words doesn't change that. If I had to write out my birthdate longhand and scan it in in order to be admitted to the Jonny Walker site, it doesn't make it more of a misrepresentation than simply choosing the wrong menu items so long as I still believe that I'm not decieving anybody with an active interest in that detail.
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Old 16th September 2019, 11:55 AM   #178
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
I suspect you're conflating two events. The demographic based events emanate from her entries in a directory at Harvard. The charitable interpretation might well be correct. The form she submitted to the Texas bar where she wrote our her race as American Indian isn't so ambiguous. This wasn't a check all that apply format. More like:

RACE: American Indian
By your standards, how much Native American DNA would someone need to put that down on a form of absolutely zero importance?

My hunch is that by your standards American Indian is not even a race in the US anymore. There can't be more than a dozen or so pure blooded Native Americans in the whole country.
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Old 16th September 2019, 12:03 PM   #179
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
She's on one of her "I'm right and you're wrong no matter what you say" crusades?
Yet again. Shocking, no?
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Old 16th September 2019, 12:08 PM   #180
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
By your standards, how much Native American DNA would someone need to put that down on a form of absolutely zero importance?
I'm tempted to say a plurality* of your makeup. But that's a complicated question. I'm already on record stating that I'm 1/16 English, and would consider it a lie if I self-identified as English. Certainly more than 1/32 (her makeup as she understood it to be).

It gets complicated when we take into account how a person lives their life. I'd cut slack to a person who was born and raised on a reservation and/or is a member of a tribe. I'd also cut slack if a person is 1/32 NA, but has no idea what the other 31/32 consists of.

Quote:
My hunch is that by your standards American Indian is not even a race in the US anymore. There can't be more than a dozen or so pure blooded Native Americans in the whole country.
Hmm, that's an interesting curve. That said, one needn't be pure blood to rightfully identify as NA.

* probably not the right word in the context
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Old 16th September 2019, 12:15 PM   #181
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
We know that Warren misrepresented her racial identity.
How do we know this? And don't give me that "she apologized" crap; that's an anachronistic fallacy. How do we know she knew that at the time she filled out the form? As far as I can tell, she actually believed she was Native American at that time.

If I tell you that as far as I remember the admission to Disney World Magic Kingdom is $60 and then I later look it up and it's more like $100, then I was wrong but I'm not a liar. Big Difference.


Quote:
Are you familiar with Rachel Dolezal? She was the head of an NAACP chapter. She claimed to be African-American. In fact, she's zero percent African-American. And unless she was completely delusional, she knew this. According to you, did she also not lie?
Sure, if she knew she wasn't black, yes, it was absolutely a lie. I don't see how that's relevant, however.
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Old 16th September 2019, 12:15 PM   #182
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You do know that the minority directory was the number one tool used for hiring minorities by Law colleges?
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Old 16th September 2019, 12:17 PM   #183
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
I'm tempted to say a plurality* of your makeup. But that's a complicated question. I'm already on record stating that I'm 1/16 English, and would consider it a lie if I self-identified as English. Certainly more than 1/32 (her makeup as she understood it to be).
Pluralities can be quite small. Mathematically, there's almost nothing prohibiting the plurality of your ethnicity being arbitrarily close to zero.
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Old 16th September 2019, 12:19 PM   #184
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
You do know that the minority directory was the number one tool used for hiring minorities by Law colleges?
How many times was Warren hired based on it?
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Old 16th September 2019, 12:19 PM   #185
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
How do we know this? And don't give me that "she apologized" crap; that's an anachronistic fallacy. How do we know she knew that at the time she filled out the form? As far as I can tell, she actually believed she was Native American at that time.
False. She "knew" (incorrectly) that she was 1/32. We know that because she says so.

Quote:
If I tell you that as far as I remember the admission to Disney World Magic Kingdom is $60 and then I later look it up and it's more like $100, then I was wrong but I'm not a liar. Big Difference.
Not analogous. Obviously a mistake like that isn't a lie.

Quote:
Sure, if she knew she wasn't black, yes, it was absolutely a lie. I don't see how that's relevant, however.
See above.
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Old 16th September 2019, 12:21 PM   #186
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
Pluralities can be quite small. Mathematically, there's almost nothing prohibiting the plurality of your ethnicity being arbitrarily close to zero.
Fine. I have no problem with that. It has no bearing on Warren though.
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Old 16th September 2019, 12:22 PM   #187
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
You do know that the minority directory was the number one tool used for hiring minorities by Law colleges?
I'm certainly open to arguments that support the contention that Warren's action can most reasonably be viewed as an attempt to advance her career by lying about her background.

But surely you're aware that this being a contentious issue, your assertion by itself doesn't carry much weight.

Do you have a source that isn't an agry partisan blog or fox news that can show that the form she filled out for the Texas bar went to a directory which was used by employers to identify race, and that being listed there would, at that time, give an employment advantage?
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Old 16th September 2019, 12:25 PM   #188
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I think Warren advanced her career about as much as every white guy called out on Twitter for wearing dreadlocks did.
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Old 16th September 2019, 12:26 PM   #189
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Seriously? This non-issue is still being argued about?

Frankly, If video came out tomorrow that showed her going to job interviews dressed in buckskins and a feather headdress, doing a rain dance on the interviewer's desk, she'd still be a much better option that the trouser stain that's currently polluting the halls of government.

I just don't really care anymore. It's a non-issue. A mistake was made, she apologized. But we spend pages arguing over the exact taxonomy of the category of mistake, and whether it's bigger or smaller than breadbox.

*sigh*

Sorry, rant over. It just gets to me on occasion.
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Old 16th September 2019, 12:31 PM   #190
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Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
Seriously? This non-issue is still being argued about?

Frankly, If video came out tomorrow that showed her going to job interviews dressed in buckskins and a feather headdress, doing a rain dance on the interviewer's desk, she'd still be a much better option that the trouser stain that's currently polluting the halls of government.

I just don't really care anymore. It's a non-issue. A mistake was made, she apologized. But we spend pages arguing over the exact taxonomy of the category of mistake, and whether it's bigger or smaller than breadbox.

*sigh*

Sorry, rant over. It just gets to me on occasion.
I mean, if the metric is "better than Trump" then there's be no reason to talk about anything about any of the democratic candidates. All of them, and their extended families and their dogs pass.

But we also have to pick which one of them wins the primary. Hopefully we can agree that if Warren dressed in buckskins and a headdress, that would speak to her character in a way that might change how we rank her against the other democratic candidates.

Beyond that, if she does get the nomination. You can be sure that this epsiode will be one of the favorite weapons of the GOP in attacking her. To that end, I think being thoughtful about how we respond to the criticism, whether that's "She ****** up, but she apologized and moved past it" or "She did nothing morally wrong" will matter.
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Old 16th September 2019, 12:33 PM   #191
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Fine. I have no problem with that. It has no bearing on Warren though.
Why wouldn't it have a bearing on Warren. 1/32 can be a plurality, how could that not be relevant? And if she identifies with her 1/32 Native American, that's her prerogative; it's certainly not comparable with someone who "identifies" with her 0% black: You're the one bringing up irrelevancies, not me.
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Old 16th September 2019, 12:34 PM   #192
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Y'all are arguing about a meaningless form that was filled out over 30 years ago - Warren was then half the age she is now.

1986 was a different time, it was considered cool by some to identify with minorities. I'll bet not one of you would like to be held accountable for things that you did in your 30's that were probably more serious than what Warren did?
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Old 16th September 2019, 12:35 PM   #193
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post

Not analogous. Obviously a mistake like that isn't a lie.
It obviously has the potential to be analogous because no extant evidence convinces me she had a will to deceive by signing off on Native American due to thinking she was 1/32 Native American.

Quote:
See above
I did. Conclusion: Irrelevant.
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Old 16th September 2019, 12:36 PM   #194
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Y'all are arguing about a meaningless form that was filled out 35 years ago - Warren was then half the age she is now.

1982 was a different time, it was considered cool by some to identify with minorities. I'll bet not one of you would like to be held accountable for things that you did in your 30's that were probably more serious than what Warren did?
I have no idea what you're taking about, those seals were like that when I got there!
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Old 16th September 2019, 12:37 PM   #195
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Y'all are arguing about a meaningless form that was filled out 35 years ago - Warren was then half the age she is now.

1982 was a different time, it was considered cool by some to identify with minorities. I'll bet not one of you would like to be held accountable for things that you did in your 30's that were probably more serious than what Warren did?

Which makes me wonder why anyone would be so damned adamant about it, claiming it was a lie. That's an absurd level of dogmatism that rubs me the wrong way so, yeah, I'm gonna argue against it.

Oh, and I'm not the one trying to hold Warren accountable for this.
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Old 16th September 2019, 12:40 PM   #196
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Y'all are arguing about a meaningless form that was filled out 35 years ago - Warren was then half the age she is now.
I'm arguing about a form that would be meaningless if she filled it out now. I don't care in this context if Warren claimed to be 25% Velociraptor and that Blue from Jurassic World was her Otherkin persona.

I care that we live in a world where people were ******** kittens because Johnny Depp played Tonto... and the people who cared about that weren't the Republicans.

One of the main leaders of the Progressive movement doing this isn't something we're just going to pretend doesn't matter.

I don't want to hear a goddamn peep from anyone who is fighting tooth and nail about why this doesn't matter next some yearbook photo from 30 years ago pops up with a Republican wearing something "culturally appropriative."
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Old 16th September 2019, 12:45 PM   #197
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
One of the main leaders of the Progressive movement doing this isn't something we're just going to pretend doesn't matter.

I don't want to hear a goddamn peep from anyone who is fighting tooth and nail about why this doesn't matter next some yearbook photo from 30 years ago pops up with a Republican wearing something "culturally appropriative."
So, it matters in a "exposing the hypocrisy of the left" sort of way to you?

It's the fact that people who are extremists about identity politics support her that's the real, actual problem in your mind?
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Old 16th September 2019, 12:46 PM   #198
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Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
Seriously? This non-issue is still being argued about?

Frankly, If video came out tomorrow that showed her going to job interviews dressed in buckskins and a feather headdress, doing a rain dance on the interviewer's desk, she'd still be a much better option that the trouser stain that's currently polluting the halls of government.

I just don't really care anymore. It's a non-issue. A mistake was made, she apologized. But we spend pages arguing over the exact taxonomy of the category of mistake, and whether it's bigger or smaller than breadbox.

*sigh*

Sorry, rant over. It just gets to me on occasion.
I agree strongly!

I have no concern about her ability to be POTUS based on this stuff. If she's the candidate, I'll support her without reservation hesitation. Actually, with my #1 choice having departed the scene (that being Jay Inslee), it's possible I'll vote for her in the primary.

What concerns me is the possibility that she has an inner fragility that will contribute to a failed candidacy. The way she let Trump play her doesn't help any.
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Old 16th September 2019, 12:49 PM   #199
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
So, it matters in a "exposing the hypocrisy of the left" sort of way to you?

It's the fact that people who are extremists about identity politics support her that's the real, actual problem in your mind?
*Shrugs* Within the context of this discussion, sure.

I'll still vote for her if she's the Democratic Candidate. I'll support her in every way that actually matters. But yes within this discussion and only this discussion it annoys me. Crucify me. Unless that's cultural appropriation against the Romans then pick whatever execution method you have a "biological right to."
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Old 16th September 2019, 12:58 PM   #200
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
What concerns me is the possibility that she has an inner fragility that will contribute to a failed candidacy. The way she let Trump play her doesn't help any.
I think taking the genetic test and being completely transparent with the results was the smart thing to do. I would have handled it the same way she did, personally.
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