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Tags 2020 elections , Elizabeth Warren , Massachusetts politics , presidential candidates , racial categorization , racial isssues

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Old 16th September 2019, 01:03 PM   #201
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I'm not really upset with anyone in particular, just more frustrated that this is politics now.

No high-minded discussions of values and ideals; no reasoned debate on the merits and flaws of different strategies to accomplish goals; no working out a compromise that works for everyone. Instead we worry about inconsequential, isolated actions half a lifetime ago and everything is PR and image control.

Of course, it's probably mostly my own perception that it was ever different. I'm sure we'll find cave paintings accusing Og of being a Cro-Magnon lover, and thus unfit to be chief.

Just let me be crotchety, dammit!
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Old 16th September 2019, 01:09 PM   #202
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Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
I'm not really upset with anyone in particular, just more frustrated that this is politics now.
It's only 2 people in the thread actually being like this, from what I can tell.

Nobody else cares.
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Old 16th September 2019, 01:11 PM   #203
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
It's only 2 people in the thread actually being like this, from what I can tell.

Nobody else cares.
I'm generalizing outside this particular microcosm.
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Old 16th September 2019, 01:14 PM   #204
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
I think taking the genetic test and being completely transparent with the results was the smart thing to do. I would have handled it the same way she did, personally.
Eh, she should have seen the way Obama was treated after releasing his birth certificate and known it would play out similarly.

Trump and his ilk are great spinners. Its a given that if he's asking for proof of anything he has a plan to spin any proffered proof as a negative to deepen the lie.

I think the best move would have been to go to the Native American communities first and let them trumpet the hypocrisy of Trump trying to paint her as victimizing NAs while he was using racist slurs against them and trampling their real interests.

"I'm not Native American, and I support the view of the Cherokee that Native identity is not determined by a blood test. I stand with the communities who have opposed oil pipelines that threaten their sacred spaces. I stand with the communities who don't feel represented by our current president when he slurs their culture and supports legislation that undermines their existence."
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Old 16th September 2019, 01:14 PM   #205
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
I think taking the genetic test and being completely transparent with the results was the smart thing to do. I would have handled it the same way she did, personally.
I don't object to the test per se. It's her defensive vibe, as opposed to owning the whole thing unabashedly.
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Old 16th September 2019, 01:15 PM   #206
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Yeah, I don't really see how this matters, one way or the other. From the information available, it doesn't appear that Warren lied or benefited from it. At worse, she overstated.

But, who cares? Does this speak anything to how she'd be as a president? Does this, in any way, make her a worse choice than President Bozo who, if you care about honesty and fairness, utterly fails on all accounts?
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Old 16th September 2019, 01:17 PM   #207
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Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
I'm generalizing outside this particular microcosm.
My take is that the GOP side can see that their opposition tends to tear themselves apart on race, so it's generally a good idea to keep Democratic politicians talking about race.
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Old 16th September 2019, 01:18 PM   #208
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
It's only 2 people in the thread actually being like this, from what I can tell.

Nobody else cares.
Time out. There's one more factor, and that's starry-eyed fans regurgitating misinformation and ludicrous parallels on a skeptic's board. That's what prompts my ongoing contributions.
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Old 16th September 2019, 01:19 PM   #209
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
My take is that the GOP side can see that their opposition tends to tear themselves apart on race, so it's generally a good idea to keep Democratic politicians talking about race.
Eh, I'm just dis-spirited. I'm holding out hope on winning the lottery, buying a private island, building a self-sufficient home on it, then declaring it an independent nation and surrounding it with sea mines and AA guns and become a high-tech hermit.

Ignore me, just having a grumpy old man day
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Old 16th September 2019, 01:22 PM   #210
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Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
I'm generalizing outside this particular microcosm.
This microcosm is the only place where I see this particular discussion happening at all, actually. I don't see it on reddit, twitter, facebook, the media (much), etc.
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Old 16th September 2019, 01:23 PM   #211
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
I don't object to the test per se. It's her defensive vibe, as opposed to owning the whole thing unabashedly.
Can you give me an example of what you mean?
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Old 16th September 2019, 01:42 PM   #212
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
I'm tempted to say a plurality* of your makeup. But that's a complicated question. I'm already on record stating that I'm 1/16 English, and would consider it a lie if I self-identified as English. Certainly more than 1/32 (her makeup as she understood it to be).

It gets complicated when we take into account how a person lives their life. I'd cut slack to a person who was born and raised on a reservation and/or is a member of a tribe. I'd also cut slack if a person is 1/32 NA, but has no idea what the other 31/32 consists of.

Hmm, that's an interesting curve. That said, one needn't be pure blood to rightfully identify as NA.

* probably not the right word in the context
The tribes themselves do not require any native blood to be a member. So maybe your opinion is not all that important.
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Old 16th September 2019, 01:48 PM   #213
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
The tribes themselves do not require any native blood to be a member. So maybe your opinion is not all that important.
You know the whole "Tribe" thing gets more and more pointless every time a new condition is revealed about it.

And that's point we're having a meta-conversation about whether or not Warren was basically a member of a country club.

Again if you're born in Ireland the other Irish don't get to decide if you are or are not really Irish. If you were born in America and your great, great Grandfather was born in Ireland the people living in Ireland now don't get a say in whether or not you are of "Irish Decent."
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Old 16th September 2019, 02:19 PM   #214
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
You know the whole "Tribe" thing gets more and more pointless every time a new condition is revealed about it.

And that's point we're having a meta-conversation about whether or not Warren was basically a member of a country club.

Again if you're born in Ireland the other Irish don't get to decide if you are or are not really Irish. If you were born in America and your great, great Grandfather was born in Ireland the people living in Ireland now don't get a say in whether or not you are of "Irish Decent."
Perhaps I'm not understanding your argument, but tribes don't decide whether or not you are of tribal descent. They instead decide on whether or not you are eligible for Tribal membership.

Ireland has an analogue: If one of your grandparents was Irish, you can emigrate to Ireland and become a citizen.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...=1568668948525 3D
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Old 16th September 2019, 02:51 PM   #215
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Y'all are arguing about a meaningless form that was filled out over 30 years ago - Warren was then half the age she is now.

1986 was a different time, it was considered cool by some to identify with minorities.
You know, maybe she didn't do it because it was "cool" but because she was proud of her Native American heritage? I mean, it clearly was family lore, and it appears to have meant a lot to her. She also contributed to a recipe book, right?

My wife has a cousin married to a guy who has NA heritage. I don't know how much, and I don't care. He's proud of it, so he does it. It's not my concern.
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Old 16th September 2019, 03:37 PM   #216
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
That said, one needn't be pure blood to rightfully identify as NA.
And hereís where the rubber hits the road. Given that there are few, if any, full-blood NA, what percentage is acceptable? You have said, I think, 25% (if it wasnít you apologies, it might have been BtC). This simply wonít work.

This was an issue we had to deal with in Australia. I have a good friend, a professor and award winning author with fair skin and red hair. His mother is of Irish descent and his father is identifiably aborigine, but not full-blood at all. My friend was brought up as part of an aboriginal family with all the disadvantage that comes with it. He is a proud aboriginal elder and would not be 25% full-blood without doubt, but I pity anyone who tries to tell him heís not a proper aborigine.

There are only two tests in Australia. You have to identify as an aborigine and, far more importantly, you have to be accepted by the local aborigine community.

I think that Warren has been accepted by at least some NA groups (going on memory), and if thatís correct, all arguments about percentages are irrelevant in my view.
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Old 16th September 2019, 04:40 PM   #217
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
And hereís where the rubber hits the road. Given that there are few, if any, full-blood NA, what percentage is acceptable? You have said, I think, 25% (if it wasnít you apologies, it might have been BtC). This simply wonít work.
No, I didn't say that.

Quote:
This was an issue we had to deal with in Australia. I have a good friend, a professor and award winning author with fair skin and red hair. His mother is of Irish descent and his father is identifiably aborigine, but not full-blood at all. My friend was brought up as part of an aboriginal family with all the disadvantage that comes with it. He is a proud aboriginal elder and would not be 25% full-blood without doubt, but I pity anyone who tries to tell him heís not a proper aborigine.
As I explained upthread, these are factors I would definitely take into account. If the same were true of Warren, I'd have nothing to say about it.

That said, we're both conflating tribal membership with racial makeup.

Quote:
I think that Warren has been accepted by at least some NA groups (going on memory), and if thatís correct, all arguments about percentages are irrelevant in my view.
Not sure what you refer to here. Warren isn't a member of a tribe so I don't know what you mean by acceptance.

In any case, no amount of acceptance changes what her racial makeup is.
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Old 16th September 2019, 04:45 PM   #218
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It's still early, but at this point it appears to be Warren against Biden. Biden is ahead, but has plenty of time for another manifestation of foot-in-mouth disease. If it ends up being Trump vs Pocahontas, I have serious doubts as to whether she can prevail. Bernie even worse, if he wins the nomination it will be a disaster.
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Old 16th September 2019, 04:58 PM   #219
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
Why wouldn't it have a bearing on Warren. 1/32 can be a plurality, how could that not be relevant? And if she identifies with her 1/32 Native American, that's her prerogative; it's certainly not comparable with someone who "identifies" with her 0% black: You're the one bringing up irrelevancies, not me.
"Can be a plurality"? Except it isn't. You're offering inapplicable scenarios.
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Old 16th September 2019, 05:06 PM   #220
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
"Can be a plurality"? Except it isn't. You're offering inapplicable scenarios.
Yeah, there's that old anachronistic fallacy again. Find me some evidence that she knew it was not a plurality at the time in question. Not now, you know. Back then.
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Old 16th September 2019, 05:08 PM   #221
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Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
It's still early, but at this point it appears to be Warren against Biden. Biden is ahead, but has plenty of time for another manifestation of foot-in-mouth disease. If it ends up being Trump vs Pocahontas, I have serious doubts as to whether she can prevail. Bernie even worse, if he wins the nomination it will be a disaster.
I believe you misjudge Sanders and Warren's chances. Indeed, I think they have a greater chances of beating Trump than Biden does or Clinton did: They can siphon off some of the anti-establishment votes from Trump that Biden nor Clinton could ever hope to do.
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Old 16th September 2019, 05:19 PM   #222
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
I believe you misjudge Sanders and Warren's chances. Indeed, I think they have a greater chances of beating Trump than Biden does or Clinton did: They can siphon off some of the anti-establishment votes from Trump that Biden nor Clinton could ever hope to do.
Warren is a lawyer, a politician, and a registered Democrat for her entire political career. Between her legal career, her political consulting career, and her political career as such, I'm having a hard time figuring out how swing voters would see her as anti establishment.
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Old 16th September 2019, 05:23 PM   #223
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
Yeah, there's that old anachronistic fallacy again. Find me some evidence that she knew it was not a plurality at the time in question. Not now, you know. Back then.
And I also want to mention (while I'm at it) that even if you do find such evidence, it means nothing (of course, if you fail to find such evidence your argument does fall apart): Be sure to note that identification with an ethnicity is subjective: Your opinion is not universal so if she fails to abide by it, that in no way implies she is lying--she may simply have a different idea on what it means to be x ethnically.
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Old 16th September 2019, 05:27 PM   #224
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Warren is a lawyer, a politician, and a registered Democrat for her entire political career. Between her legal career, her political consulting career, and her political career as such, I'm having a hard time figuring out how swing voters would see her as anti establishment.

Oh, so you don't remember my answer from the last time, huh?


Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
This is a good insight. However, I don't think Warren is perceived by many as being outside the Democrat establishment.

I think she's perceived by many as not being in the pockets of corporations, which is a big part of being in or out of the establishment.
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Old 16th September 2019, 05:33 PM   #225
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Warren is a lawyer, a politician, and a registered Democrat for her entire political career. Between her legal career, her political consulting career, and her political career as such, I'm having a hard time figuring out how swing voters would see her as anti establishment.
She would probably/possibly get some of these voters:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obama-Trump_voters

The most notable aspect of her legal career was her work as an academic researching ("exposing") the modern causes of bankruptcy.

What do you mean when you refer to her "political consulting career"?
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Old 16th September 2019, 05:51 PM   #226
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Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
It's still early, but at this point it appears to be Warren against Biden. Biden is ahead, but has plenty of time for another manifestation of foot-in-mouth disease. If it ends up being Trump vs Pocahontas, I have serious doubts as to whether she can prevail. Bernie even worse, if he wins the nomination it will be a disaster.
Biden's brain is turning into jello. He answered a question about reparations in the last debate by rambling on about:

"The teachers are reca ó Now, Iím married to a teacher. My deceased wife is a teacher. They have every problem coming to them. [Closes eyes briefly] We have make sure that every single child does in fact have three, four, and five year-olds go to school ó school, not daycare. School. We bring social workers into homes of parents to help them deal with how to raise their children. Itís not that they donít wanna help, they donít want ó they donít know quite what to do. Play the radio, make sure the television, [closes eyes tightly] the ó Ďscuse me, make sure you have the record player on at night, the-the-the-the phone, make sure the kids hear words."

A debate between him and Trump would probably be entertaining, though.
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Old 16th September 2019, 06:50 PM   #227
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Warren had been endorsed by the Working Families Party.

https://twitter.com/WorkingFamilies/...7Ctwgr%5Etweet
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Old 16th September 2019, 06:56 PM   #228
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
Yeah, there's that old anachronistic fallacy again. Find me some evidence that she knew it was not a plurality at the time in question. Not now, you know. Back then.
What an amusing and asinine challenge. As if Warren was unaware of 31/32 of her background. I hope you appreciate how unlikely that is.

But if I come across anything, I'll post it.
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Old 16th September 2019, 06:58 PM   #229
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
His mother is from the Hebrides right?
You spelled Hades wrong.
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Old 16th September 2019, 06:59 PM   #230
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It would be an interesting debate (between Biden and Trump). Although he does have this way of spacing out, you get the feeling his brain contains a hundred times the information of Trumps. He needs to have a good night, but if he does he could wipe the floor with Trump.
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Old 16th September 2019, 07:14 PM   #231
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
What an amusing and asinine challenge. As if Warren was unaware of 31/32 of her background. I hope you appreciate how unlikely that is.
How would she be aware of it without a DNA test to be sure? And don't tell me "her family tree" because every damn one in her family tree would have the same uncertainty she has.

Quit whining to me that you can't back your position up. LOL! As if you thought your obvious logical fallacies would go unnoticed by me...




...and now that I've called you out on them you fail to produce.


Quote:
But if I come across anything, I'll post it.

I won't hold my breath.

Man you just can't admit you're wrong, can you?
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Old 16th September 2019, 07:40 PM   #232
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It won't even come up unless we get Trump vs Warren. In tweet world, the world has moved on.
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Old 16th September 2019, 07:44 PM   #233
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Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
It would be an interesting debate (between Biden and Trump). Although he does have this way of spacing out, you get the feeling his brain contains a hundred times the information of Trumps. He needs to have a good night, but if he does he could wipe the floor with Trump.
I actually don't get the impression he does have a lot more info in his brain than Trump does, honestly.

And on the topic of who would wipe the floor with who, it could go either way, I think, depending on their relative functioning level that night.

Trump is gifted at being a bully. He's coherent and quick when he's just being mean. He might be able to bait Biden into an insult-hurling type fight.
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Old 16th September 2019, 08:22 PM   #234
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The best rebuttal to Trump's insult hurling is to simply reply with "Grow up, Donald."
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Old 16th September 2019, 11:41 PM   #235
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
She's on one of her "I'm right and you're wrong no matter what you say" crusades?
Takes one to know one.
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Old 16th September 2019, 11:44 PM   #236
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
The best rebuttal to Trump's insult hurling is to simply reply with "Grow up, Donald."
Yeah. I've known a couple of viscous narcissists in my life, and they blow a fuse if you just talk down to them. I honestly doubt Biden has what it takes to rattle the guy, though. Hillary did. He was scared of her. In the back of his mind, he's aware of it when he's in the presence of someone significantly more intelligent than himself, I suspect (he probably frames it in his mind as dealing with someone with more "booksmarts", or something like that.)
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Old 16th September 2019, 11:44 PM   #237
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
That makes it somewhat less casual, but I'm not so sure it changes the core evaluation here.

Whether her action there is read as deceipt, mistake, incompetence or nothing of consquence still hinges on what she thought the purpose of the prompt was.

The difference between checking a box or writing two words doesn't change that. If I had to write out my birthdate longhand and scan it in in order to be admitted to the Jonny Walker site, it doesn't make it more of a misrepresentation than simply choosing the wrong menu items so long as I still believe that I'm not decieving anybody with an active interest in that detail.
I often put the wrong date of birth on internet forms because:

(a) you have to protect yourself from identity theft (I know people who lie about their mother's maiden name for this reason)

(b) usually it is none of their business.

However, if I lie about my age in order to gain an advantage I am not entitled to, then that is deception.
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Old 17th September 2019, 12:15 AM   #238
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Yeah. I've known a couple of viscous narcissists in my life, and they blow a fuse if you just talk down to them. I honestly doubt Biden has what it takes to rattle the guy, though. Hillary did. He was scared of her. In the back of his mind, he's aware of it when he's in the presence of someone significantly more intelligent than himself, I suspect (he probably frames it in his mind as dealing with someone with more "booksmarts", or something like that.)
I suspect a huge part of Trump's constant digging at Obama is for the same reason. He knows he can't hold a candle to Obama in any way. I'm not talking about political philosophy or platform, but about Obama being far more intelligent, classy, and respected in the world. Trump looks like a country bumpkin next to Obama. He'll never measure up to Obama and he knows it, thus his need to deride Obama and undue everything he did during his presidency.

I would have loved to see Trump and Obama in a debate. Obama would have wiped the floor with him.
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Old 17th September 2019, 12:18 AM   #239
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Takes one to know one.
Stop it right now, Missy, or you'll go to bed without any dinner!
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Old 17th September 2019, 01:13 AM   #240
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Takes one to know one.
Sounds like an admission to me
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