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Tags 2020 elections , Elizabeth Warren , Massachusetts politics , presidential candidates , racial categorization , racial isssues

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Old 17th September 2019, 05:11 PM   #281
varwoche
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
<snip the part where Belz ducks question>
Alas, nothing left.

You don't need to delve into the Rachel D specifics. You can think of this as a fictional scenario. Consider a white person who fooled the world into thinking they're African-American. She's a committed activist for African-American causes, and even achieved a leadership position at an NAACP chapter. There are influential African-Americans activists who supported her even after she was outed. She feels an overwhelming affinity for the people and culture. She lives, works, and plays among 'fellow' African-Americans. While there's zero evidence of her being African-American, we can't rule out the remote possibility of a distant African-American ancestor.

Can we safely call her a liar when she claims her race is African-American?

If you say yes, I'll have a follow-up and I'll toss it out now for you to consider: Imagine that she takes a DNA test that shows, surprise, she's 1/10000 African. What then?
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Old 17th September 2019, 05:11 PM   #282
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The Elizabeth Warren/Native American is a classic example of the now standard rightwing Republican attack strategy to undermine those they fear the most. Research every aspect of an opponent's history and life. Find something. anything that can be knowingly twisted, mis-repreesented or distorted to serve as "a button to sew a vest on" until you artfully, artificially, and deceitfully created an apparently embarrassing event in your opponent's history. Blow it way of of proportion; outright lying is fully permitted in this process. Amusingly the very process ensures that the more trivial the item they are forced to use as the button the more likely the other parts of of that person's life are relatively clean. Count on the initial lies and distortions being distributed and amplified by Fox News, conservative talking heads, and the Republican "leadership" as a common and relentless talking point. Also count on the actual facts not being corrected until long after many in the public have been pwned by this initial assault. Also continue to state the lies even after the real facts become evident.

IMO Post 3360 by The Strike represents an excellent summary of the actual facts.

Last edited by Giordano; 17th September 2019 at 06:20 PM. Reason: Added small addition to first paragraph
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Old 17th September 2019, 11:35 PM   #283
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Alas, nothing left.

You don't need to delve into the Rachel D specifics. You can think of this as a fictional scenario. Consider a white person who fooled the world into thinking they're African-American. She's a committed activist for African-American causes, and even achieved a leadership position at an NAACP chapter. There are influential African-Americans activists who supported her even after she was outed. She feels an overwhelming affinity for the people and culture. She lives, works, and plays among 'fellow' African-Americans. While there's zero evidence of her being African-American, we can't rule out the remote possibility of a distant African-American ancestor.

Can we safely call her a liar when she claims her race is African-American?

If you say yes, I'll have a follow-up and I'll toss it out now for you to consider: Imagine that she takes a DNA test that shows, surprise, she's 1/10000 African. What then?
It won't. Anything beyond 0.01% is generally disregarded as 'noise'.
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Old 18th September 2019, 01:26 AM   #284
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Alas, nothing left.

You don't need to delve into the Rachel D specifics. You can think of this as a fictional scenario. Consider a white person who fooled the world into thinking they're African-American. She's a committed activist for African-American causes, and even achieved a leadership position at an NAACP chapter. There are influential African-Americans activists who supported her even after she was outed. She feels an overwhelming affinity for the people and culture. She lives, works, and plays among 'fellow' African-Americans. While there's zero evidence of her being African-American, we can't rule out the remote possibility of a distant African-American ancestor.

Can we safely call her a liar when she claims her race is African-American?

If you say yes, I'll have a follow-up and I'll toss it out now for you to consider: Imagine that she takes a DNA test that shows, surprise, she's 1/10000 African. What then?
I know people who are strong advocates for Maori and Pacific Island people - they have not a drop of Polynesian or Melanesian blood.

I know people who are strong advocates for prison reform, who have never been to prison and are not lawyers.

I know people who are strong advocates for women's rights, who are not women (and no, they never have been)

I know people who are strong advocates for LGBTQ+ rights, who are 100% heterosexual.

How strongly you believe in advocacy for something, and how willing you are to act as an advocate for it is not measured by how much of that something you are, or now much it applies to you.
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Old 18th September 2019, 05:13 AM   #285
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
I know people who are strong advocates for Maori and Pacific Island people - they have not a drop of Polynesian or Melanesian blood.

I know people who are strong advocates for prison reform, who have never been to prison and are not lawyers.

I know people who are strong advocates for women's rights, who are not women (and no, they never have been)

I know people who are strong advocates for LGBTQ+ rights, who are 100% heterosexual.

How strongly you believe in advocacy for something, and how willing you are to act as an advocate for it is not measured by how much of that something you are, or now much it applies to you.
Obviously so. This is 200 proof non sequitur.
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Old 18th September 2019, 05:26 AM   #286
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Alas, nothing left.
You're getting dangerously close to rank dishonesty. I've answered all your questions, just not with the answers your wanted.

Quote:
Can we safely call her a liar when she claims her race is African-American?
Did she intend to deceive? That's what a lie is. I see no evidence that Warren did, which is the crucial difference.
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Old 18th September 2019, 05:42 AM   #287
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Did she intend to deceive? That's what a lie is. I see no evidence that Warren did, which is the crucial difference.

But don't you see: Deception was her only intent because 30 years later she'd find out she didn't have a plurality of NA ancestry. The impact of this revelation hit her, so hard, that it bled over into the 1980s, changing the course of history, and causing her to lie on that form.

What if she had never learned the details of her ethnicity? Once upon a time (before the Warren DNA test) we actually knew. The time warp of the DNA test has destroyed that past and whatever her intentions back then may have been, they are now irretrievable to us in 2019.

Sometimes you can't go back.

LOL!
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Old 18th September 2019, 06:04 AM   #288
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A brief review. Many of the arguments put forward here that challenge my assertion that Warren lied don't pass the giggle test. For instance, it's been proposed that we can't call her lie a lie because...

* 1/32 NA (Warren's approximate misunderstanding) might actually be her plurality ethnicity

* Warren may have thought at the time that 1/32 NA was her plurality ethnicity.

* The word "untruthful" doesn't apply when no harm is caused.

* Wearing green on St Patrick's Day is somehow analogous.

* Magical thinking. If someone feels passionate about something, and clicks their heels three times or whatever, they can rightfully re-define the facts of their existence. I look forward one day to Presidential Candidate Fairy Princess.

I occasionally wonder if I wandered into the Paranormal sub forum.
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Old 18th September 2019, 06:22 AM   #289
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
A brief review. Many of the arguments put forward here that challenge my assertion that Warren lied don't pass the giggle test. For instance, it's been proposed that we can't call her lie a lie because...

* 1/32 NA (Warren's approximate misunderstanding) might actually be her plurality ethnicity

* Warren may have thought at the time that 1/32 NA was her plurality ethnicity.

* The word "untruthful" doesn't apply when no harm is caused.

* Wearing green on St Patrick's Day is somehow analogous.

* Magical thinking. If someone feels passionate about something, and clicks their heels three times or whatever, they can rightfully re-define the facts of their existence. I look forward one day to Presidential Candidate Fairy Princess.

I occasionally wonder if I wandered into the Paranormal sub forum.
Wait. What is it that you think Warren claimed and how is it a lie?
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Old 18th September 2019, 06:32 AM   #290
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
But don't you see: Deception was her only intent because 30 years later she'd find out she didn't have a plurality of NA ancestry. The impact of this revelation hit her, so hard, that it bled over into the 1980s, changing the course of history, and causing her to lie on that form.

What if she had never learned the details of her ethnicity? Once upon a time (before the Warren DNA test) we actually knew. The time warp of the DNA test has destroyed that past and whatever her intentions back then may have been, they are now irretrievable to us in 2019.

Sometimes you can't go back.

LOL!
It all makes sense now! Warren is a time traveler from the future whose Texas Bar Association card accidentally altered the past (her past; our present) in a butterfly-effect cascade of small but critical coincidences. That's why we seem to have veered off into this evil mirror universe where everyone is suddenly yay fascism, and why she's running for President; to correct her mistake.
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Old 18th September 2019, 06:42 AM   #291
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
It all makes sense now! Warren is a time traveler from the future whose Texas Bar Association card accidentally altered the past (her past; our present) in a butterfly-effect cascade of small but critical coincidences. That's why we seem to have veered off into this evil mirror universe where everyone is suddenly yay fascism, and why she's running for President; to correct her mistake.
Omg it makes sense! Warren's a Time Lord, and Trump is a Slitheen she's come to defeat!
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Old 18th September 2019, 06:47 AM   #292
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
A brief review. Many of the arguments put forward here that challenge my assertion that Warren lied don't pass the giggle test. For instance, it's been proposed that we can't call her lie a lie because...

* 1/32 NA (Warren's approximate misunderstanding) might actually be her plurality ethnicity

* Warren may have thought at the time that 1/32 NA was her plurality ethnicity.

* The word "untruthful" doesn't apply when no harm is caused.

* Wearing green on St Patrick's Day is somehow analogous.

* Magical thinking. If someone feels passionate about something, and clicks their heels three times or whatever, they can rightfully re-define the facts of their existence. I look forward one day to Presidential Candidate Fairy Princess.

I occasionally wonder if I wandered into the Paranormal sub forum.
I don't think the plurality bit is important. Can someone who has a black and a white parent not be white and black at once?

The question is only whether she believed that what she wrote was true.
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Old 18th September 2019, 06:48 AM   #293
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Wait. What is it that you think Warren claimed and how is it a lie?
On a form she filled out for the Texas Bar:

RACE: American Indian

While I enjoyed the movie Groundhog Day a great deal, wash-rinse-repeat isn't as much fun in real life. In other words, it would help if you could please catch up with the thread.
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Old 18th September 2019, 07:07 AM   #294
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
On a form she filled out for the Texas Bar:

RACE: American Indian

While I enjoyed the movie Groundhog Day a great deal, wash-rinse-repeat isn't as much fun in real life. In other words, it would help if you could please catch up with the thread.
Varwoche, you do realise that in order to establish something to be a lie you must do more than to show that the statement is factually incorrect, right?
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Old 18th September 2019, 07:17 AM   #295
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Can we safely call her a liar when she claims her race is African-American?
I suppose that depends on whether we have a sensible conception of what "race" should be taken to mean. If it as senseless and useless as I tend to think it is, then the question isn't worth considering at any great length.

https://twitter.com/kirbmarc/status/1173119933250752512
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Old 18th September 2019, 07:21 AM   #296
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
On a form she filled out for the Texas Bar:

RACE: American Indian

While I enjoyed the movie Groundhog Day a great deal, wash-rinse-repeat isn't as much fun in real life. In other words, it would help if you could please catch up with the thread.
Sure, sure. How's that a lie? I mean, she had other, perhaps better, options, but it's not really a lie.
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Old 18th September 2019, 07:57 AM   #297
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It seems to me that we've come to a point where folks are so sure of their position, they aren't actually going through the steps of how the facts can only reach their conclusion.

I think that we're conflating two different understandings of what the word "race" mean. On the one hand, there is race a social construct which has more to do with how you look and how it positions you in society. On the other hand, there is race as short-hand for ancestral lineage.

It seems pretty clear to me that Warren has only ever used her Native American claim as the latter. For her own reasons, she is proud of that ancestry, just as one might be, for instance, proud of having an ancestor who came over on the Mayflower. Whereas her critics are using the claim, sometimes exclusively, as the former.

Ultimately, if one is to judge her words, they should be judged in the context in which she meant them. To do anything else is to create a straw-man argument.
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Old 18th September 2019, 08:22 AM   #298
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Sure, sure. How's that a lie? I mean, she had other, perhaps better, options, but it's not really a lie.
Moreover, with all this hand-wringing, has anyone asked the question, what is the Texas Bar guidelines for race? I mean, BtC has given his opinion, as have others, but these are all irrelevant to the issue, since it was the Texas Bar that wanted to know her race. Has the Texas Bar claimed that it was wrong?

I will admit that I don't know what the Texas Bar considers to be acceptable, but I will venture to assert that neither does anyone else in this thread. As such, it's all IGNORANT hand-wringing, literally.

I'm perfectly happy not knowing what the Texas Bar considers to be acceptable, because I really don't care that much.
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Old 18th September 2019, 08:30 AM   #299
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I can't imagine this hasn't been pointed out before, but it seems to me that varwoche is being pretty loose with his definition of "lie".

Varwoche, you do realize that if tell you I am a Star Trek Romulan and I truly believe a Star Trek Romulan..........well, it doesn't mean I'm actually a Romulan, but it does mean I did not lie.

You claim she lied. That's a pretty heavy burden of proof: You have to establish that you know exactly what was in her head at the time.

You have failed to do that on every level.
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Old 18th September 2019, 09:18 AM   #300
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
I can't imagine this hasn't been pointed out before, but it seems to me that varwoche is being pretty loose with his definition of "lie".

Varwoche, you do realize that if tell you I am a Star Trek Romulan and I truly believe a Star Trek Romulan..........well, it doesn't mean I'm actually a Romulan, but it does mean I did not lie.

You claim she lied. That's a pretty heavy burden of proof: You have to establish that you know exactly what was in her head at the time.

You have failed to do that on every level.
I'm not sure how concluding that 31/32 Caucasian = "Native American" is anything other than delusion or dishonesty.

I'm open to arguments that Warren is actually delusional, but I doubt that's the case. I think it's much more reasonable to conclude that labeling herself "Native American" was nothing more than a little white lie.
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Old 18th September 2019, 09:20 AM   #301
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Varwoche, you do realise that in order to establish something to be a lie you must do more than to show that the statement is factually incorrect, right?
We have her own words in essence. Her explanation over the years has consistently pointed to a semi-distant ancestor. If you confirm for me that you're actually unaware of this very public fact, I'll dredge up some old quotes when time allows.

Moreover and equally convincing, a non risible alternate scenario doesn't exist. The possibility that her two white parents somehow duped her doesn't fly.
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Old 18th September 2019, 09:35 AM   #302
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Someone as woke as Elizabeth Warren would have known she wasn't qualified to claim Native American status.

Either she is stupid, or really smart.

If she is really smart, she knew she was trying to game the hiring system, if she was stupid, then she had no idea of what she was doing.

Which is it? A smart , future presidential candidate, stealing the Native American valor, to vie for an Ivy League faculty position? or an idiot, who had no idea she was putting her Native American status into a hiring directory for Ivy league law schools?
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Old 18th September 2019, 09:50 AM   #303
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
We have her own words in essence. Her explanation over the years has consistently pointed to a semi-distant ancestor. If you confirm for me that you're actually unaware of this very public fact, I'll dredge up some old quotes when time allows.

Moreover and equally convincing, a non risible alternate scenario doesn't exist. The possibility that her two white parents somehow duped her doesn't fly.
But an ancestor nonetheless, correct?
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Old 18th September 2019, 09:54 AM   #304
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
Someone as woke as Elizabeth Warren would have known she wasn't qualified to claim Native American status.

Either she is stupid, or really smart.

If she is really smart, she knew she was trying to game the hiring system, if she was stupid, then she had no idea of what she was doing.

Which is it? A smart , future presidential candidate, stealing the Native American valor, to vie for an Ivy League faculty position? or an idiot, who had no idea she was putting her Native American status into a hiring directory for Ivy league law schools?
Wasn't she a Republican back then? All sorts of sins and errors can be corrected in time.
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Old 18th September 2019, 09:59 AM   #305
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She used to be a Republican. But people change. Should we not allow that?

ETA: ******* ninja assed monkey . . . .
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Old 18th September 2019, 10:04 AM   #306
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
She used to be a Republican. But people change. Should we not allow that?
You missed my point. Her dreadful sin of appropriation or her evil stupidity date from her Republican days, and therefore are easily understood as natural complications of that terrible sickness. The patient has since recovered from that ailment and we can expect no further lapses into the stupid evil typical of the infected. Indeed, she now bears an immunity to the R. coli.

Eta: ah, crossed posts. I'm leaving this in because it will infuriate some people.
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Old 18th September 2019, 10:07 AM   #307
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Originally Posted by The Shrike View Post
There's also the premise that Warren claimed her Native ancestry (which is now proven) on her membership roll for the Texas bar to help Warren. That isn't clear to me at all. Much more in keeping with her attitudes toward social justice would be Warren registering as American Indian so that she might be in a better position to provide services (maybe even pro bono?) to Native Americans? Imagine a 30-years' younger and more idealistic Elizabeth Warren for a moment and I don't think "conniving grifter" will come to mind.

Also, explain this to me: Warren identifies as American Indian on her Texas Bar membership card. Okay. First off, her name is "Elizabeth Warren" not "Sunbeam Crow". She shows up in person somewhere. She's not wearing buckskins and beads. She looks like she just fell out of the Talbot's catalogue. The notion that she was trying to fool anyone into thinking she wasn't a white woman is ludicrous. Clearly she had some other motivation for claiming her <actual> Native heritage. She wasn't trying to pull a fast one to get ahead; there's no way such a ruse could possibly have been successful.
I guess this was too subtle for some folks. Let's try this:

Exhibit A Ė In the 1980s, young lawyer Elizabeth Warren who was raised to believe she had some Native ancestry writes in "American Indian" in a space to indicate race on a registry for the Texas Bar Association.

Why did she do this? (some options, feel free to add more)
  1. Back in the 1980s, female lawyers registered in the Texas Bar as some additional minority group got a big boost in pay and prestige compared to just being plain old white women. The benefit as so great, that it was worth the risk of her being outed as not really all that Native by anyone who would ever meet her in person.
  2. Back in the 1980s, nothing said "ka-ching!" for a new lawyer in Texas than getting hired by one of those sweet Native American law firms. Those Texas Indians paid big-time, but you had to be Native to get hired by them. In fact, the benefit as so great, that it was worth the risk of her being outed as not really all that Native by the first Native person with whom she spoke.
  3. Back in the 1980s, conditions and treatment of Native Americans in the US was quite a bit worse than it is today. By claiming her Native ancestry on the Texas Bar, Warren might have had access to Native plaintiffs who might not otherwise have been able to afford representation. She was demonstrating kinship; not trying to fool anyone.

Seriously, which of those three scenarios makes the most sense given who Elizabeth Warren is today? (Also, please add your own. I'm especially tickled by the folks convinced that Warren was trying to fool people into thinking she was Native, 'cause nothing screams 'career advancement' louder than being Native in the US, 3 decades ago. In Texas.)
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Old 18th September 2019, 10:15 AM   #308
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Eta: ah, crossed posts. I'm leaving this in because it will infuriate some people.
Agreed on all points.
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Old 18th September 2019, 10:21 AM   #309
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
We have her own words in essence. Her explanation over the years has consistently pointed to a semi-distant ancestor.
Again, what does that have to do with lying? You're consistently failing to make the connection between one premise and the conclusion.
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Old 18th September 2019, 10:49 AM   #310
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
She used to be a Republican. But people change. Should we not allow that?
Under the new rules of cancel culture, change can only go in one direction. Past sins can never be forgiven, but new sins can always condemn you.
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Old 18th September 2019, 10:52 AM   #311
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Under the new rules of cancel culture, change can only go in one direction. Past sins can never be forgiven, but new sins can always condemn you.
That is the most Christian thing you have ever whispered in my ear.
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Old 18th September 2019, 11:09 AM   #312
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'm not sure how concluding that 31/32 Caucasian = "Native American" is anything other than delusion or dishonesty.
Well, first of all, that was working under varwoche's definition of: You are the plurality ethnicity of your ancestry. That's not a universal definition, there is no agreed upon standard for what, specifically, "allows" a person to identify as this or that race.

That's Mistake #1.

Mistake #2: Ah yes, the old anachronistic fallacy. At the time in question, she hadn't had a DNA test. She didn't know what amount of Caucasian was present. She didn't know what amount of Native American was present (it could have been > 1/32 for all she knew).

How many times must this be pointed out before people like you realize the obvious flaw?
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Old 18th September 2019, 11:23 AM   #313
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Originally Posted by The Shrike View Post
I guess this was too subtle for some folks. Let's try this:

Exhibit A Ė In the 1980s, young lawyer Elizabeth Warren who was raised to believe she had some Native ancestry writes in "American Indian" in a space to indicate race on a registry for the Texas Bar Association.

Why did she do this? (some options, feel free to add more)
  1. Back in the 1980s, female lawyers registered in the Texas Bar as some additional minority group got a big boost in pay and prestige compared to just being plain old white women. The benefit as so great, that it was worth the risk of her being outed as not really all that Native by anyone who would ever meet her in person.
  2. Back in the 1980s, nothing said "ka-ching!" for a new lawyer in Texas than getting hired by one of those sweet Native American law firms. Those Texas Indians paid big-time, but you had to be Native to get hired by them. In fact, the benefit as so great, that it was worth the risk of her being outed as not really all that Native by the first Native person with whom she spoke.
  3. Back in the 1980s, conditions and treatment of Native Americans in the US was quite a bit worse than it is today. By claiming her Native ancestry on the Texas Bar, Warren might have had access to Native plaintiffs who might not otherwise have been able to afford representation. She was demonstrating kinship; not trying to fool anyone.

Seriously, which of those three scenarios makes the most sense given who Elizabeth Warren is today? (Also, please add your own. I'm especially tickled by the folks convinced that Warren was trying to fool people into thinking she was Native, 'cause nothing screams 'career advancement' louder than being Native in the US, 3 decades ago. In Texas.)
I think the critical premise goes more like this:
  1. Back in the 1980s, affirmative action was gaining some ground and was being practiced by government agencies which tend to hire some amount of lawyers. Whether or not it actually worked on a quota system or minority status created an actual advantage, some people at the time believed it did, and this group might include Warren.

None of the key background there is too controversial. We know affirmative action is a thing. We know people knew about it in the 80s. And while I'm not sure of the details of how it practically operated in the places Warren may have hoped to be employed, there was a decent chunk of people who believed at the time that minority status could acheive some advantages around that time due to affirmative action.

There was even a terrible movie around that time (Soul Man, look it up) about a white law student who dons blackface to get a Harvard scholarship only available to black students.

I don't think there's a great reason to think Warren was gunning for any particular advantage, but the perception that advantages for minorities existed at the time was fairly mainstream, so it isn't impossible or as implausible as your scenarios that she was among the many who believed such a status may create opportunities.
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Old 18th September 2019, 11:25 AM   #314
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Under the new rules of cancel culture, change can only go in one direction. Past sins can never be forgiven, but new sins can always condemn you.
"Cancel culture"?
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Old 18th September 2019, 11:30 AM   #315
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
"Cancel culture"?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Call-out_culture
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Old 18th September 2019, 11:33 AM   #316
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
"Cancel culture"?
It's this thing where celebrities do stupid or offensive things and then bemoan the unfairness of life when people react negatively.
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Old 18th September 2019, 11:35 AM   #317
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Ah, didn't know that one. Thanks.
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Old 18th September 2019, 11:49 AM   #318
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
So, accountability? Invisible hand of the market, where the currency is attention?
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Old 18th September 2019, 12:02 PM   #319
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Originally Posted by The Shrike View Post
Seriously, which of those three scenarios makes the most sense given who Elizabeth Warren is today? (Also, please add your own. I'm especially tickled by the folks convinced that Warren was trying to fool people into thinking she was Native, 'cause nothing screams 'career advancement' louder than being Native in the US, 3 decades ago. In Texas.)
Nothing screams GETTING HIRED AT HLS! louder than being a minority candidate at that time, protests were ongoing at Harvard, and the Dean was under pressure to hire more of them.

Also, she wasn't looking for customers at the time of the directory entry.
She was law faculty. And I don't think she was spending any time looking for clients.
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Old 18th September 2019, 12:48 PM   #320
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Again, what does that have to do with lying? You're consistently failing to make the connection between one premise and the conclusion.
I actually don't get what it is you don't get. I don't have time to sort it out right now -- I'll post later.

First though, pardon me but I overstated this...
Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
We have her own words in essence. Her explanation over the years has consistently pointed to a semi-distant ancestor ... very public fact
I now see that she's been far more vague than I thought. Apparently a grandparent is said to be small part NA but I'm unable to provide a quote from Warren.
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