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Tags 2020 elections , Elizabeth Warren , Massachusetts politics , presidential candidates , racial categorization , racial isssues

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Old 18th September 2019, 12:51 PM   #321
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
But an ancestor nonetheless, correct?
Yes, a micro-fraction confirmed by a DNA test.
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Old 18th September 2019, 01:10 PM   #322
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Yes, a micro-fraction confirmed by a DNA test.
A micro-fraction of DNA, but aren't all ancestors a micro-fraction given enough generations? The point is that she does have Native American ancestry, does she not?

Actually, to reiterate, the point really is that I think you are conflating different meanings for what is being claimed. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to think she's claiming to be Native American in the sense she is claiming a protected societal status. Whereas, it seems to me that she is merely claiming to have a particular ancestry that she is proud of, even though it may be quite distant. In the latter, she is not wrong.
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Old 18th September 2019, 01:11 PM   #323
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Yes, a micro-fraction confirmed by a DNA test.
Eight generations back (at least) and thus unlikely to have been correctly reflected in family lore.
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Old 18th September 2019, 01:19 PM   #324
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
A micro-fraction of DNA, but aren't all ancestors a micro-fraction given enough generations? The point is that she does have Native American ancestry, does she not?
As I already clearly stated using the word "yes", yes.

Quote:
Actually, to reiterate, the point really is that I think you are conflating different meanings for what is being claimed. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to think she's claiming to be Native American in the sense she is claiming a protected societal status. Whereas, it seems to me that she is merely claiming to have a particular ancestry that she is proud of, even though it may be quite distant. In the latter, she is not wrong.
Not my position at all. It's much simpler than that. I'm saying that when she wrote out "American Indian" as her RACE, that was BS. This wasn't an essay question. I provided you with a recreation of the actual prompt/reply that was on the form in my first post addressed to you. Way upthread FMW posted a link to the actual form.

<groundhog> I don't claim she benefited from this lie. I don't think she's unqualified to be POTUS based on this lie or anything else. It happened a long time ago. I would be delighted for her to be POTUS. </day>
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Old 18th September 2019, 01:20 PM   #325
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Eight generations back (at least) and thus unlikely to have been correctly reflected in family lore.
Maybe not precisely reflected in the detail but, at least in this case, still accurately reflected.

Out of curiosity, I decided to look up how many generations it's been since the Mayflower voyage, which I used in an earlier post. It's been 13 to 15 generations. There are people who are proud of that ancestry as well, despite being even further removed.
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Old 18th September 2019, 01:25 PM   #326
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
As I already clearly stated using the word "yes", yes.

Not my position at all. It's much simpler than that. I'm saying that when she wrote out "American Indian" as her RACE, that was BS.
You contradict yourself. It certainly does not encompass the entirety of her racial background, but it is accurate. It is not a lie.

And, to be fair, it was a BS item to put on that form.
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Old 18th September 2019, 01:32 PM   #327
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
You contradict yourself. It certainly does not encompass the entirety of her racial background, but it is accurate. It is not a lie.

And, to be fair, it was a BS item to put on that form.
I suppose this is the crux of the disagreement for many here who don't consider it a lie.

if we go back far enough, I'm part African. As are you, as are we all. Do you think it would be truthful to claim your RACE is African American? If not why not?
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Old 18th September 2019, 01:33 PM   #328
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Eight generations back (at least) and thus unlikely to have been correctly reflected in family lore.
You havenít been following the facts or this thread. Early reports were inaccurate. Six generations back, mapping to early 1800s and consistent with her family lore.
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Old 18th September 2019, 01:51 PM   #329
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
You havenít been following the facts or this thread. Early reports were inaccurate. Six generations back, mapping to early 1800s and consistent with her family lore.
Close but no cigar. It's six to ten generations ago.
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Old 18th September 2019, 01:54 PM   #330
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Close but no cigar. It's six to ten generations ago.
Yes, but Indians used to raise white kids as their own, so the relative could have been culturally indian unaware they had no actual native blood.

I must say, this is an amazing thread.
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Old 18th September 2019, 02:01 PM   #331
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
I suppose this is the crux of the disagreement for many here who don't consider it a lie.
Or those who do consider it a lie. Why do you consider it a lie? This is the part I've not seen you support.

Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
If we go back far enough, I'm part African. As are you, as are we all. Do you think it would be truthful to claim your RACE is African American? If not why not?
Well, that is an interesting question. To my knowledge, none of my ancestors would have been considered simultaneously African and American. All humans are of African decent, sure, but I doubt they even had a concept of race back then. I think all my ancestors had diverged by the time we had African Americans.

So, no, probably not.
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Old 18th September 2019, 02:22 PM   #332
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Close but no cigar. It's six to ten generations ago.
That puts it, what? Revolutionary times?

Are the Daughters of the American Revolution BS?
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Old 18th September 2019, 03:23 PM   #333
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
I think the critical premise goes more like this:
[list=1][*]Back in the 1980s,
Oh I remember the 1980s quite well. In fact, by the early 1990s I was working in a government office in which there was an Affirmative Action policy in place for all of our hires. We were forced to interview a person of color for every position. During the three years that I worked there, we never hired any of the Affirmative Action candidates because they simply weren't as qualified as other candidates. So my firsthand experience with Affirmative Action was that it played zero role in who got jobs, but it did give us a chance to consider candidates that implicit bias might have kept us from considering.

But that's neither here nor there. Check out this Wiki timeline:
  1. Elizabeth Warren started teaching law at Rutgers in 1977.
  2. She was tenured at the University of Houston, even rising to the rank of Associate Dean around 1980 or 1981.
  3. By 1983, she was a tenured Full Professor at the University of Texas, and she stuck around until 1987.

During this early part of her career, Elizabeth Warren was crushing it as a law professor. She was already tenured and had reached the highest academic rank at a major US university a good three years before she wrote in American Indian on her Texas Bar Association registration card in 1986. Therefore, unequivocally, her claim on her registration card could not have *helped her get that job* because she already had that job.

The gaming the Affirmative Action explanation simply does not hold water.

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Old 18th September 2019, 03:32 PM   #334
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Originally Posted by The Shrike View Post
Oh I remember the 1980s quite well. In fact, by the early 1990s I was working in a government office in which there was an Affirmative Action policy in place for all of our hires. We were forced to interview a person of color for every position. During the three years that I worked there, we never hired any of the Affirmative Action candidates because they simply weren't as qualified as other candidates. So my firsthand experience with Affirmative Action was that it played zero role in who got jobs, but it did give us a chance to consider candidates that implicit bias might have kept us from considering.

But that's neither here nor there. Check out this Wiki timeline:
  1. Elizabeth Warren started teaching law at Rutgers in 1977.
  2. She was tenured at the University of Houston, even rising to the rank of Associate Dean around 1980 or 1981.
  3. By 1983, she was a tenured Full Professor at the University of Texas, and she stuck around until 1987.

During this early part of her career, Elizabeth Warren was crushing it as a law professor. She was already tenured and had reached the highest academic rank at a major US university a good three years before she wrote in American Indian on her Texas Bar Association registration card in 1986. Therefore, unequivocally, her claim on her registration card could not have *helped her get that job* because she already had that job.

The gaming the Affirmative Action explanation simply does not hold water.
And for reference, while Texas is rightly derided as a backwater state, UT's law school has long been considered a top 14 school. So, going from UT further up the hierarchy is not a huge jump. In fact, UH to UT was probably the most significant promotion in her career as UH is typically ranked around 50ish now, maybe even a bit lower back then.
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Old 18th September 2019, 03:52 PM   #335
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Or those who do consider it a lie. Why do you consider it a lie? This is the part I've not seen you support.
We're at a deadlock here because you don't even acknowledge the claim as false. I take it you view her apology as snow job?

Quote:
Well, that is an interesting question. To my knowledge, none of my ancestors would have been considered simultaneously African and American. All humans are of African decent, sure, but I doubt they even had a concept of race back then. I think all my ancestors had diverged by the time we had African Americans.

So, no, probably not.
That's really weak. You're wiggling out on a technicality.

This wasn't an essay question asking Warren to opine on her fractional ancestry or her cultural concepts.
RACE: American Indian

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Old 18th September 2019, 03:55 PM   #336
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
That puts it, what? Revolutionary times?

Are the Daughters of the American Revolution BS?
That's not even apples and oranges. More like apples and meatloaf, and so vague as to be empty pontification.

But if this is a serious question, by all means lay out in detail what they said and in what context they said it.
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Old 18th September 2019, 04:03 PM   #337
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
"Cancel culture"?
Boy George's first failed band.
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Old 18th September 2019, 04:09 PM   #338
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
We're at a deadlock here because you don't even acknowledge the claim as false.
And you can't even explain how it is false, except through repetition of your claim that it is, even while acknowledging that she had Native American ancestry.


Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
I take it you view her apology as snow job?
*Shrug* I view it as politics and picking your battles. Being technically correct on such a minor issue is not worth detailing the stuff that really matters.

Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
That's really weak. You're wiggling out on a technicality.
More or less weak than wriggling out of supporting your claim for however many pages?

Would I put my race as African? Probably not. Any connection I have to the continent is long since lost to prehistory. My DNA test traced no specific markers to the area and I have no knowledge of any connection beyond a vague scientific understanding on the scale of hundreds of thousands of years.

To be honest, since my DNA test, I have considered identifying as Scandinavian...

Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
This wasn't an essay question asking Warren to opine on her fractional ancestry or her cultural concepts.
RACE: American Indian

And that is inaccurate how?

You could answer that it is incomplete but, as you mentioned, it was not an essay question. Any answer would necessarily be incomplete.
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Old 18th September 2019, 04:17 PM   #339
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
That's not even apples and oranges. More like apples and meatloaf, and so vague as to be empty pontification.

But if this is a serious question, by all means lay out in detail what they said and in what context they said it.
It is a serious question. Are you not familiar with the Daughters of the American Revolution? They are an organization made up of people who base at least part of their identity on having an ancestor who participated in the American Revolution over 240 years ago, approximately the same time frame as Warren's Native American ancestor(s).

Yes, they probably have more ancestors who did not participate in the American Revolution. Does that make the DAR BS?
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Old 18th September 2019, 04:26 PM   #340
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He could put his money where his mouth is by going to the next DAR meeting and calling them all liars. That'll go over well with that bunch.
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Old 18th September 2019, 05:21 PM   #341
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
It is a serious question. Are you not familiar with the Daughters of the American Revolution? They are an organization made up of people who base at least part of their identity on having an ancestor who participated in the American Revolution over 240 years ago, approximately the same time frame as Warren's Native American ancestor(s).

Yes, they probably have more ancestors who did not participate in the American Revolution. Does that make the DAR BS?
That's so literal that it's absurd. It's the name of an organization for crying out loud, not a specific answer to a specific question on an official form. I'm embarrassed on your behalf.

But to the extent there are individual members of that group on record making specific false claims about their identity, they should expect uncomfortable scrutiny if they ever run for POTUS.

Next up: Campfire Girls who haven't actually started a campfire.
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Old 18th September 2019, 05:35 PM   #342
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
That's so literal that it's absurd. It's the name of an organization for crying out loud, not a specific answer to a specific question on an official form. I'm embarrassed on your behalf.
It is a claim of identity based on a distant ancestors, just like Warren. I guarantee members of the DAR fill out forms about their ancestry.

Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
But to the extent there are individual members of that group on record making specific false claims about their identity, they should expect uncomfortable scrutiny if they ever run for POTUS.
Repeating the claim that Warren lied does not make it true, especially after admitting that Warren actually has Native American ancestry.
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Old 19th September 2019, 02:40 AM   #343
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
*Shrug* I view it as politics and picking your battles. Being technically correct on such a minor issue is not worth detailing the stuff that really matters.
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Old 19th September 2019, 03:40 AM   #344
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
And you can't even explain how it is false, except through repetition of your claim that it is, even while acknowledging that she had Native American ancestry... wriggling out of supporting your claim for however many pages?
This is a really difficult concept. Put aside all distractions and brace yourself. It's so difficult that I've been wriggling rather than face this. I'm sorry I held it back for so long. You may be shocked to learn...

Warren is a Caucasian.

On a serious note, I don't understand why this is hard to grasp. It's my sense that your abysmal showing here is due to a (politically) tribal, poorly thought out, defensive reaction. I imagine I'll read this whole thread later and see that there are improvements I could have made in my presentation.
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Old 19th September 2019, 04:07 AM   #345
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
I suppose this is the crux of the disagreement for many here who don't consider it a lie.

if we go back far enough, I'm part African. As are you, as are we all. Do you think it would be truthful to claim your RACE is African American? If not why not?
I think it's fair to say we all have a cut-off point. 1/64 is just six generations back, though. In many places that's enough to be considered a NA.
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Old 19th September 2019, 04:45 AM   #346
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
This is a really difficult concept. Put aside all distractions and brace yourself. It's so difficult that I've been wriggling rather than face this. I'm sorry I held it back for so long.

Warren is a Caucasian.
But that is not entirely true, is it? You are only telling part of the story, aren’t you? Unlike Warren, you have more than a short line to answer the question.

Does that mean you are lying? If not, why not?

Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
On a serious note, I don't understand why this is hard to grasp. It's my sense that your abysmal showing here is due to a (politically) tribal, poorly thought out, defensive reaction. I imagine I'll read this whole thread later and see that there are improvements I could have made in my presentation.
Oh, I understand what you are arguing. I just think you are making a straw man argument and ignoring vast amounts of context. You haven’t even attempted to address counter arguments, instead simply reiterating your claim over and over, as you essentially did above.

It’s easy to be correct when you merely ignore ways you’re wrong.
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Old 19th September 2019, 04:51 AM   #347
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I think it's fair to say we all have a cut-off point. 1/64 is just six generations back, though. In many places that's enough to be considered a NA.
(1) Why a cutoff point and why is that fair? 1/64 rates but 1/128 doesn't? You've crafted arbitrary boundaries that let Warren off the hook. (2) According to the DNA test, 1/64 is her maximum ethnicity, as little as 1/1024. Or something like that. (3) Apparently there are "places", better known as tribes, that grant membership to 0%. The race of these people doesn't magically change when they're granted tribal membership. (4) I by and large regard the rules established by "places" as BS. Joe has nailed this but I'll take a whack anyway:

According to Jewish tradition, Jewish identity comes from your mother. If your mother is Jewish and father not, welcome to the tribe otherwise no dice. Obviously, a person with a Jewish father and non Jewish mother is no less ethnic Jew. These are ancient, ignorant beliefs. The rules established by NA tribes adds a layer of contemporary, economic self-interest.

Pardon me for not following up on our earlier exchange. I'll get back to that at some point.

Coincidentally, I'll be working with several Native Americans over the next few weeks. If the vibe is comfortable, I intend to find out what they think about all this.
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Old 19th September 2019, 05:18 AM   #348
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Warren is a Caucasian.
And also American Indian. You can be both.
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Old 19th September 2019, 05:41 AM   #349
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Coincidentally, I'll be working with several Native Americans over the next few weeks. If the vibe is comfortable, I intend to find out what they think about all this.
Why? Didnít you just say their beliefs about who is Native American and who isnít is BS?
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Old 19th September 2019, 05:42 AM   #350
varwoche
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
And also American Indian. You can be both.
Hakuna matata to you, my African brother.
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Old 19th September 2019, 05:49 AM   #351
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Coincidentally, I'll be working with several Native Americans over the next few weeks. If the vibe is comfortable, I intend to find out what they think about all this.
Will your experiences trump the ones I've shared here after years of working with Native students on the daily? I've tried to explain that most of our Native students are as white as Warren and could not care less about her 1986 faux pas on her Texas Bar registration card. Yet here we are, 9 pages in.
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Old 19th September 2019, 05:55 AM   #352
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
(1) Why a cutoff point and why is that fair?
Because we're talking about humans. Humans have arbitrary demarcations between things. It's normal.

Quote:
1/64 rates but 1/128 doesn't?
I never said that. In fact I have not given any thought as to how much NA blood one might need to be considered one. I'm only discussing whether Warren lied i.e. told an untruth deliberately in order to deceive.

Quote:
You've crafted arbitrary boundaries that let Warren off the hook.
I've done no such thing. You're adding information to my post that isn't there.

Quote:
(2) According to the DNA test, 1/64 is her maximum ethnicity, as little as 1/1024. Or something like that.
Noted.

Quote:
Apparently there are "places", better known as tribes, that grant membership to 0%.
Which serves to show how unimportant the DNA test is and how silly it was for her to be baited to it.

Quote:
The race of these people doesn't magically change when they're granted tribal membership.
Except that we keep saying that race doesn't exist. It's also arbitrary. If they're willing to grant membership to zero-percenters then the membership is the important bit. It changes nothing about ancestry, however.

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These are ancient, ignorant beliefs.
How are they ignorant? It's tradition.
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Old 19th September 2019, 06:36 AM   #353
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You neglected to answer this, varwoche:
Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
It is a serious question. Are you not familiar with the Daughters of the American Revolution? They are an organization made up of people who base at least part of their identity on having an ancestor who participated in the American Revolution over 240 years ago, approximately the same time frame as Warren's Native American ancestor(s).

Yes, they probably have more ancestors who did not participate in the American Revolution. Does that make the DAR BS?
Are The Daughters of the American Revolution BS? After all, they are similarly only a micro-fraction decedents of anyone who was involved in the American Revolutionary War. If not, how do you reconcile those two contradictory positions?
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Old 19th September 2019, 07:55 AM   #354
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
(2) According to the DNA test, 1/64 is her maximum ethnicity, as little as 1/1024. Or something like that.


You know, it amazes me that you continue to persist believing this is somehow relevant to the question of whether or not Warren lied. I've personally explained this to you several times. I've seen others explain it as well.

In other words, you know it's irrelevant and you still persist in presenting it as "evidence".

YOU ARE LYING IN THE DEFENSE OF YOUR OWN ARGUMENT, VARWOCHE.

Oh the irony!!!
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Old 19th September 2019, 11:02 AM   #355
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
>snipped<

Quote:
Apparently there are "places", better known as tribes, that grant membership to 0%.
Which serves to show how unimportant the DNA test is and how silly it was for her to be baited to it.
>snipped<
Why was she 'silly' to get a DNA test? I've never understood that opinion. To me, it was the most reasonable thing to do at the time. Saying she was "baited to it" is like saying a person was "baited" to providing an alibi to the police. At the time, she was damned if she did and damned if she didn't.

I don't think it's the DNA test (which actually supported her claims) which has become the point of contention, but her having written 'American Indian" on her Texas Bar application, etc. IMO, she was wrong to do that, but she was not wrong to take the DNA test.
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Old 19th September 2019, 11:30 AM   #356
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Why was she 'silly' to get a DNA test? I've never understood that opinion. To me, it was the most reasonable thing to do at the time.
It was silly because it's just more fuel to the fire and more ammo to her opponents. Letting it lie would've been preferable. And she got baited to play Trump's game rather than just ignore him and focus on issues that matter.
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Old 19th September 2019, 11:49 AM   #357
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Why? Didn’t you just say their beliefs about who is Native American and who isn’t is BS?
You're over eager to win debate points. I enjoy meeting people and learning how they think.

But more significantly -- from your perspective at least, because you're demonstrating a great deal of confusion on this -- it's irrational to conflate individual people with whatever group they may belong to.

You're not merely expecting me to saddle these people with the beliefs/policies of a group they belong to. That alone is irrational, and somewhat obnoxious* even. You're conflating the physical entities.

Category error.

* Add: That is, I think it would be obnoxious for me to treat people that way, not for you to have posted this absurd challenge.

Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
You neglected to answer this, varwoche:Are The Daughters of the American Revolution BS? After all, they are similarly only a micro-fraction decedents of anyone who was involved in the American Revolutionary War. If not, how do you reconcile those two contradictory positions?
I still don't have a clear picture of the scenario. I'm not knowledgeable about DAR and I'm and not wishing to do a deep dive, so I need a little more clarity. Do I have this right...?

- Members of DAR are required to have a least one ancestor involved in some form or another in the Revolutionary War

- The name of the organization implies that all of a member's ancestors were involved in the war

- Most members only have one ancestor involved in the war

- Members who only have one ancestor involved in the war are in some way analogous with Warren

I'll be pleased to learn I'm not getting the plot line.
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Last edited by varwoche; 19th September 2019 at 12:08 PM.
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Old 19th September 2019, 11:50 AM   #358
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
It was silly because it's just more fuel to the fire and more ammo to her opponents. Letting it lie would've been preferable. And she got baited to play Trump's game rather than just ignore him and focus on issues that matter.
I disagree. If she had not gotten a DNA test, then Trump and his supporters would have claimed that she was afraid to get tested because she made the whole thing up. Trump would still be sarcastically calling her Pocahontas and challenging her to get a DNA test while either insinuating or outright calling her a liar. And, no...I don't miss the irony in that.

Warren's mistake was not in getting the test which actually supported her claim of NA ancestry but in writing down "NA/Indian" on paperwork back in the 1980's. That has been the real point of contention, not the DNA results.
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Old 19th September 2019, 11:51 AM   #359
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I thought it was a mistake at first, especially when they didn't seem to have predicted the "well that's not Indian enough!" followup, but it seems to have worked in hindsight. Except for the ridiculous circling in this thread, I don't see anyone getting their panties in a bunch over it anymore.

That said, the Warren campaign needs to plan for the GOP wheeling out a tribal leader from somewhere to demand an apology from her and inflame the issue again.
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Old 19th September 2019, 12:11 PM   #360
varwoche
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Originally Posted by The Shrike View Post
Will your experiences trump the ones I've shared here after years of working with Native students on the daily? I've tried to explain that most of our Native students are as white as Warren and could not care less about her 1986 faux pas on her Texas Bar registration card. Yet here we are, 9 pages in.
Wow. I casually mention I'm meeting someone and you leap to this?? That's flat out bizarre.

It's extremely unlikely my experiences will trump anything, as if that even vaguely occurred to me.
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Last edited by varwoche; 19th September 2019 at 12:22 PM.
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