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Old 22nd September 2019, 05:20 AM   #121
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I asked about your post and your content, if I was asking about a post Foolmewunz had made I would have quoted his post.
I know you asked me, that's why I responded. But why did you ask me and not Foolmewunz? That doesn't actually make sense.
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Old 22nd September 2019, 06:31 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by erlando View Post
Just another proof that the doofus doesn't even understand concepts explained in early high school.

Does he even know how to drive? Does he have a driver's license?
Like a 5-year-old, he seems to think that it's mainly about honking the horn and turning the steering wheel from side to side.

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Old 22nd September 2019, 07:37 AM   #123
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I've frequently wondered if he's EVER had a driver's license.
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Old 22nd September 2019, 08:13 AM   #124
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Alright, I've sort of stayed out of this because the dufus brought up steel and safer cars when the subject was really about the mileage standards the Obama administration imposed on the manufactures being rolled back. So, while I won't attempt to "defend" what he said, because, like everything else, it was stupid and showed a complete lack of understanding that's become the norm for Trump. (For the record, once again, I'm not a supporter, but I also don't hate him with a blind rage, so bare with me when it comes to the Goofball and Chief.) When those standards/regulation were put in place, the manufactures did cry foul, and said it would be hard and expensive to meet them. Those costs are always going to be passed on to the consumer. So, rolling them back should be a cost cutting maneuver for the car builders which should result in cars not costing even more in the future. This doesn't say they should go back to the old ways of making things ether. I don't think there's any demand for grossly inefficient, polluting, unsafe automobiles, anywhere. People want a safe car that gets decent mileage, and the market for that is robust enough without a mileage mandate being in place. What that mandate was causing were, what I do consider to be unsafe little jellybean cars like the "Smart" being unleashed on American freeways in order to meet an "average mpg".
Go ahead now, tear me a new one.
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Old 22nd September 2019, 08:58 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by Mike! View Post
Alright, I've sort of stayed out of this because the dufus brought up steel and safer cars when the subject was really about the mileage standards the Obama administration imposed on the manufactures being rolled back. So, while I won't attempt to "defend" what he said, because, like everything else, it was stupid and showed a complete lack of understanding that's become the norm for Trump. (For the record, once again, I'm not a supporter, but I also don't hate him with a blind rage, so bare with me when it comes to the Goofball and Chief.) When those standards/regulation were put in place, the manufactures did cry foul, and said it would be hard and expensive to meet them. Those costs are always going to be passed on to the consumer. So, rolling them back should be a cost cutting maneuver for the car builders which should result in cars not costing even more in the future. This doesn't say they should go back to the old ways of making things ether. I don't think there's any demand for grossly inefficient, polluting, unsafe automobiles, anywhere. People want a safe car that gets decent mileage, and the market for that is robust enough without a mileage mandate being in place. What that mandate was causing were, what I do consider to be unsafe little jellybean cars like the "Smart" being unleashed on American freeways in order to meet an "average mpg".
Go ahead now, tear me a new one.
Thanks.

I assumed, based on the contents of the thread, that he was talking about safety standards rather than mileage standards. So, it seems that we have managed to make ourselves look dumber than Trump. How embarrassing is that?

Oh, and any standard that is based on "average" anything for a fleet of cars is totally stupid. The price that you pay for a car shouldn't be influenced by which other cars are built by the same company. That's dumb. If you want to impose some sort of "gas guzzler tax" on cars that get low mileage, the wisdom of that could be debated but it isn't an inherently stupid idea. Imposing such a tax, but waiving it for cars that are made by companies that also make small cars is just ridiculous.
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Old 22nd September 2019, 10:33 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Then again we could be waiting longer to buy cars because they are much better made and last far longer. Time was that a 5 year old car with 100k miles was clapped out, these days it's barely run in. Mrs Don's 11 year old Skoda supermini hatchback has no visible corrosion and runs perfectly. My 1981 Austin Allegro was a colander after 5 years.
Which was made in Britain?
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Old 22nd September 2019, 10:41 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
If you want to impose some sort of "gas guzzler tax" on cars that get low mileage, the wisdom of that could be debated but it isn't an inherently stupid idea.
We already do that through gas taxes.
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Old 22nd September 2019, 12:44 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
We already do that through gas taxes.
And there's the actual Gas Guzzler Tax that's been in effect since, 1978. Say you want to drop a cool $85,000 on a new 800+ horsepower Dodge Demon. You're going to pay an additional $1700 tax on top of that because of it's combined mileage is a percentage under the 21.5 mpg the law expects out of a reasonable automobile.

https://blog.consumerguide.com/gas-guzzler-tax/
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Old 22nd September 2019, 02:23 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by Mike! View Post
Alright, I've sort of stayed out of this because the dufus brought up steel and safer cars when the subject was really about the mileage standards the Obama administration imposed on the manufactures being rolled back. So, while I won't attempt to "defend" what he said, because, like everything else, it was stupid and showed a complete lack of understanding that's become the norm for Trump. (For the record, once again, I'm not a supporter, but I also don't hate him with a blind rage, so bare with me when it comes to the Goofball and Chief.) When those standards/regulation were put in place, the manufactures did cry foul, and said it would be hard and expensive to meet them. Those costs are always going to be passed on to the consumer. So, rolling them back should be a cost cutting maneuver for the car builders which should result in cars not costing even more in the future. This doesn't say they should go back to the old ways of making things ether. I don't think there's any demand for grossly inefficient, polluting, unsafe automobiles, anywhere. People want a safe car that gets decent mileage, and the market for that is robust enough without a mileage mandate being in place. What that mandate was causing were, what I do consider to be unsafe little jellybean cars like the "Smart" being unleashed on American freeways in order to meet an "average mpg".
Go ahead now, tear me a new one.
The supposed cost savings has to be weighed against the increased per-capita health care costs, reduced life expectancy, and other negative effects of an environment with higher presence of pollutants.
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Old 22nd September 2019, 02:35 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
The supposed cost savings has to be weighed against the increased per-capita health care costs, reduced life expectancy, and other negative effects of an environment with higher presence of pollutants.
OK, so do we have any real idea what these competing costs are? Or do we just rely on our gut feeling for what we expect they are?
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Old 22nd September 2019, 07:58 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
OK, so do we have any real idea what these competing costs are? Or do we just rely on our gut feeling for what we expect they are?
OECD have done a fair bit of research trying to quantify the costs of pollution.

But among the variables we'd need to pin down would be the delta between where fuel mileage standards would have gone with the old standards in place and what they will be after the relaxed standards have been in effect and changed any attitudes in the market.

I don't expect there's any methodology for trying to generate that figure that would meet with widespread approval. While we might be able to confirm one number or the other when we arrive at that future point, we won't have a definitive measurement about the other "might have been."

But the basic underlying idea that there are costs for pollution that can be quantified in terms of health care spending, likelihood to develop a chronic respiratory condition, and life expectancy? Yeah, that has a lot of good science behind it. There has naturally been and will continue to be a lot of discussion about control factors and accuracy.
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Old 22nd September 2019, 08:06 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
OECD have done a fair bit of research trying to quantify the costs of pollution.

But among the variables we'd need to pin down would be the delta between where fuel mileage standards would have gone with the old standards in place and what they will be after the relaxed standards have been in effect and changed any attitudes in the market.
I suspect there's enough wiggle room there that people can probably reach whichever conclusion they want to reach.
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Old 22nd September 2019, 09:07 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
We never need to guess how Trump critics will spin things. It always ends with Trump = Hitler.
I'm so sorry I missed your initial whinge, here. I have no interest in the thread because, as I said, it's a stupid distraction.

But surely you've got the timeline wrong. It doesn't "always end up with Trump = Hitler". It starts with it.
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Old 23rd September 2019, 12:03 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
I'm so sorry I missed your initial whinge, here. I have no interest in the thread because, as I said, it's a stupid distraction.

But surely you've got the timeline wrong. It doesn't "always end up with Trump = Hitler". It starts with it.
Trump is Hitler, am I’m the one whining? Um....
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Old 23rd September 2019, 12:31 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Trump is Hitler, am I’m the one whining? Um....
supporting a would-be dictator but complaining that he is being compared to dictators is indeed whining.
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Old 23rd September 2019, 03:15 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Oh, and any standard that is based on "average" anything for a fleet of cars is totally stupid. The price that you pay for a car shouldn't be influenced by which other cars are built by the same company. That's dumb. If you want to impose some sort of "gas guzzler tax" on cars that get low mileage, the wisdom of that could be debated but it isn't an inherently stupid idea. Imposing such a tax, but waiving it for cars that are made by companies that also make small cars is just ridiculous.
That's not what an "average" fuel mileage means. It doesn't mean the average of all cars produced by a particular car manufacturer. It means an average achieved by one car in a variety of driving situations - in other words a car may get a fuel mileage of 50mpg if you drive it at 50mph in 5th gear, but that doesn't tell you what it gets when you drive in New York City.
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Old 23rd September 2019, 03:56 AM   #137
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
That's not what an "average" fuel mileage means. It doesn't mean the average of all cars produced by a particular car manufacturer. It means an average achieved by one car in a variety of driving situations - in other words a car may get a fuel mileage of 50mpg if you drive it at 50mph in 5th gear, but that doesn't tell you what it gets when you drive in New York City.
No, that's not it.

CAFE standards. Corporate Average Fuel Economy.

There are (or at least were, I don't know the current state of affairs) standards in place for what the average vehicle mpg should be for cars from a given manufacturer, with financial penalties for failing to meet the standards. In other words, if the average car sold by General Motors doesn't get at least X mpg, GM pays a penalty.

Marketing strategies were based around this. They would discount small car prices because if they could sell more small cars at low profit, that would bring down their CAFE score, allowing them to sell more high profit minivans.

ETA: And it's dumb. It created bizarre situations where a car company would keep alive a model that nobody really liked because otherwise they wouldn't be able to sell other cars. If a small car line isn't very good, the company should be able to axe it. With CAFE, sometimes mediocre small cars stayed on the market because the company needed to bring its fleet score down.

Last edited by Meadmaker; 23rd September 2019 at 04:01 AM.
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Old 23rd September 2019, 04:08 AM   #138
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
No, that's not it.

CAFE standards. Corporate Average Fuel Economy.

There are (or at least were, I don't know the current state of affairs) standards in place for what the average vehicle mpg should be for cars from a given manufacturer, with financial penalties for failing to meet the standards. In other words, if the average car sold by General Motors doesn't get at least X mpg, GM pays a penalty.

Marketing strategies were based around this. They would discount small car prices because if they could sell more small cars at low profit, that would bring down their CAFE score, allowing them to sell more high profit minivans.
In order to meet those CAFE standards, they figure out ahead of time, how many of each vehicle they can build. There's a limit on how many Demon or Hellcat Challengers and Chargers they can build in a given year, since they are the worst when it comes to mileage. And that goes all across the model line for a given year. They have an average fuel economy they must meet, so for every gas guzzeler, there had better be a couple few gas sippers (or EV's) available to bring that average in line.
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Old 23rd September 2019, 04:24 AM   #139
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
supporting a would-be dictator but complaining that he is being compared to dictators is indeed whining.
Is a wonderfully unfalsifiable claim. Trump will never be a dictator, never even really try to become one, but you can always claim that he would if he could. Quite convenient.
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Old 23rd September 2019, 04:37 AM   #140
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Is a wonderfully unfalsifiable claim. Trump will never be a dictator, never even really try to become one, but you can always claim that he would if he could. Quite convenient.
ah, the "Trump is too incompetent to do what he wants to do, so it doesn't count" defense. How very convenient for you.

Trump keeps on saying that he deserves more than two terms;
he keeps on demanding that the Press should say nicer things about him;
he calls all of his opponents enemies of the people and traitors:
he keeps on telling how much better his dictators pals have who don't have to deal with an opposition

- just because he doesn't know how to become a dictator doesn't mean that he doesn't make it abundantly clear that he would love to be one.
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Old 23rd September 2019, 04:43 AM   #141
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Is a wonderfully unfalsifiable claim. Trump will never be a dictator, never even really try to become one, but you can always claim that he would if he could. Quite convenient.

What do you think Trump would be doing differently if his goal was to become dictator?

Edited by kmortis:  Removed to comply with Rule 12

Last edited by kmortis; 3rd October 2019 at 06:25 AM.
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Old 23rd September 2019, 05:50 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
What do you think Trump would be doing differently if his goal was to become dictator?

Edited by kmortis:  Removed to comply with Rule 12
A pretty obvious one is that he would try to get legislation passed that significantly expanded the power of the presidency.
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Last edited by kmortis; 3rd October 2019 at 06:27 AM.
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Old 23rd September 2019, 05:53 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
No, that's not it.

CAFE standards. Corporate Average Fuel Economy.

There are (or at least were, I don't know the current state of affairs) standards in place for what the average vehicle mpg should be for cars from a given manufacturer, with financial penalties for failing to meet the standards. In other words, if the average car sold by General Motors doesn't get at least X mpg, GM pays a penalty.

Marketing strategies were based around this. They would discount small car prices because if they could sell more small cars at low profit, that would bring down their CAFE score, allowing them to sell more high profit minivans.

ETA: And it's dumb. It created bizarre situations where a car company would keep alive a model that nobody really liked because otherwise they wouldn't be able to sell other cars. If a small car line isn't very good, the company should be able to axe it. With CAFE, sometimes mediocre small cars stayed on the market because the company needed to bring its fleet score down.
Well, I apologise. I didn't know about that, and it does seem kind of stupid. In my defence, I don't think we have that in the UK.

(although now no doubt someone will jump in and tell me I'm wrong about that too.)
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Old 23rd September 2019, 05:55 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
A pretty obvious one is that he would try to get legislation passed that significantly expanded the power of the presidency.

What about the alternative: Ignore checks and balances. Like the checks and balances he is ignoring from the House.
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Old 23rd September 2019, 06:25 AM   #145
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Originally Posted by Doubt View Post
Trump's grandstanding won't change what the automakers are working on.

The one thing it might do is make it easier for a competitor from outside the US to get into the US market. But that only works if the competitor is already making a substandard product in a third world country. That is something to worry about.

Trump has not touched safety standards yet, which is why cars have crumple zones.

The technology investments needed to make cars as fuel efficient won't be going away. I used to work in a steel mill that made auto body panel steel. The hot and cold rolling mills used to have fixed settings on each stand for reduction. The fixed settings limited how thin the steel could be made. To make thinner steel dynamically controlled pressure and speed systems were needed. Those have been in place for decades now and improved over time. They won't go back to making thicker steel and the auto companies won't ask for it.

The auto industry is global. The car makers, (Old and new world,) still have to meet standards for Europe and Japan that won't be weakened by Trump. They are not going to separate all their design work for different countries for major components.

All Trump is accomplishing here is "owning the libs" while potentially opening the market up to really bad cars and trucks from underdeveloped countries.
Hell I have heard of new steels that stampers are having issues with because they are designed to work harden in a crash and get stronger as they crumple. Even the steel in cars is nothing like it was 40 years ago, it is so much better.
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Old 23rd September 2019, 06:32 AM   #146
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Nope. Friction force scales with mass, so that's really not a problem with cars.
Only to first approximations. Kind of like ohm's law really only applies if the material is ohmic. Once you get out of the lab and into real world real material science starts to matter and those nice linear rules break down. Like when do the wheels just lock up and go from static to sliding friction.
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Old 23rd September 2019, 06:34 AM   #147
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
And yet the stopping distance for a given car increases with the car's weight (number of passengers, luggage, bags of cement in the back ...)

Whether a heavier structure in this kind of case would be significant enough to warrant an upgrade to more powerful brakes is another matter.
Look he is assuming a spherical car, it is basic high school physicist assumptions being played with not real world engineering concerns.
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Old 23rd September 2019, 06:34 AM   #148
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
A pretty obvious one is that he would try to get legislation passed that significantly expanded the power of the presidency.

Why?
That would help all Presidents, not just him, personally.
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Old 23rd September 2019, 06:35 AM   #149
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
So why do trucks have a longer breakpath?
The world is more complex than high school physics says it is.
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Old 23rd September 2019, 06:38 AM   #150
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
A pretty obvious one is that he would try to get legislation passed that significantly expanded the power of the presidency.
And that's going to pass the House, how?
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Old 23rd September 2019, 06:38 AM   #151
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Your analysis only applies when skidding, but skidding is bad.

Heavier cars need more powerful brakes to stop quickly without skidding.

I haven't worked out the physics myself, but I'm sure. Automotive engineers have.

Let's not lose sight of the real point. Cars are safer than they used to be, but Donald Trump promises to get rid of regulation related to safety, and uses flawed reasoniy to justify. It.
To a certain extent they have and they haven't. Engineers are more concerned with what works than perfectly describing the relationship mathematically so you get tables of approximations of how things behave rather than nice neat linear equations like Zig is talking about.
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Old 23rd September 2019, 06:40 AM   #152
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Well, yes. And what limits the force that can be applied? The friction between the ground and the tires. The braking force cannot exceed the maximum static friction between them. And how do you determine the maximum static friction? You multiply the static friction coefficient by the normal force between the two surfaces. And what's the normal force proportional to? The weight of the vehicle, and hence its mass. So mass is contained within the force term in the case of maximal braking.
Of course truck tires are inflated to many times the pressure of car tires so they are hardly at all the same. Now maybe if we put enough car tires on trucks and were able to inflate them to the same pressure you might get similar performance. But of course those differences matter.
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Old 23rd September 2019, 06:59 AM   #153
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
And that's going to pass the House, how?
It's not. But he's not even trying. He didn't even try when he had a majority. How do you become a dictator if you don't even try to expand your power?
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Old 23rd September 2019, 07:05 AM   #154
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
It's not. But he's not even trying. He didn't even try when he had a majority. How do you become a dictator if you don't even try to expand your power?
he is - Mafia style.
He tells others to brake the law for him, sometimes offering Pardons if necessary, and threatens those who would he dare to investigate him.
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Old 23rd September 2019, 07:05 AM   #155
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
It's not. But he's not even trying. He didn't even try when he had a majority. How do you become a dictator if you don't even try to expand your power?
By ignoring the limits on your power already in place and counting on the fact that nobody in your tribe is going to stop you, just like Trump is doing.

By putting people into positions of legal power who hold the opinion that you are not legally touchable, just like Trump is doing.

But putting family members into positions of power, just like Trump is doing.

I await your "LOOK OVER THERE, A SQUIRREL!" response.
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Old 23rd September 2019, 07:12 AM   #156
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yep - Nepotism is a typical feature of aspiring Dictators.
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Old 23rd September 2019, 07:16 AM   #157
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
yep - Nepotism is a typical feature of aspiring Dictators.
Yep.

And before the "Whataboutaaaaaaa" starts I said the same thing about the the President and Attorney General being brothers under the Kennedys and Hillary running for President after her husband had held the office.

I don't like political dynasties.
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Old 23rd September 2019, 07:35 AM   #158
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
he is - Mafia style.
He tells others to brake the law for him, sometimes offering Pardons if necessary, and threatens those who would he dare to investigate him.
Oh please. What threat do you think Mueller faced?

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
By ignoring the limits on your power already in place and counting on the fact that nobody in your tribe is going to stop you, just like Trump is doing.
Name me a single court order that Trump has disobeyed. That's what ignoring limits on his power would actually look like, and he's not doing that.

Quote:
By putting people into positions of legal power who hold the opinion that you are not legally touchable, just like Trump is doing.
Are you talking about the fact that the DOJ can't indict a sitting president? That's been the official position of the DOJ for a long time now. Every president appoints people like that.

Quote:
But putting family members into positions of power, just like Trump is doing.
Are you under the delusion that only dictators and aspiring dictators practice nepotism?
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Old 23rd September 2019, 07:36 AM   #159
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Yep.

And before the "Whataboutaaaaaaa" starts I said the same thing about the the President and Attorney General being brothers under the Kennedys and Hillary running for President after her husband had held the office.

I don't like political dynasties.
I don't like them either. They're distasteful, and smell of aristocracy. But aristocracy isn't synonymous with dictatorship.
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Old 23rd September 2019, 07:49 AM   #160
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So more whataboutism and a side of "It's not technically dictatorship, it's sparkling aristocracy."
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