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Old 23rd September 2019, 07:55 AM   #161
theprestige
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
supporting a would-be dictator but complaining that he is being compared to dictators is indeed whining.
Not compared with. Equated with. The problem is that you never actually do the comparison. If you did, you'd understand how much of a clown you look, pushing the equation all the time.
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Old 23rd September 2019, 08:02 AM   #162
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
So more whataboutism and a side of "It's not technically dictatorship, it's sparkling aristocracy."
It's not whatbaoutism. Whataboutism is an attempt to distract from a charge by leveling a charge at a different target. The point of the DOJ thing was that it's a nonsense charge to begin with. Doing what every other president does is no indication of dictatorial tendencies. That isn't whataboutism.

And the difference between an aristocracy (which Britain has, for example) and a dictatorship is not a mere technicality. I've refuted your argument, you don't have a counter-argument, and so you try to dismiss me without actually addressing what I said.
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Old 23rd September 2019, 08:05 AM   #163
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Name me a single court order that Trump has disobeyed. That's what ignoring limits on his power would actually look like, and he's not doing that.
Isn't he or members of his administration currently ignoring several subpoenas from multiple committees?
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Old 23rd September 2019, 08:06 AM   #164
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I don't like them either. They're distasteful, and smell of aristocracy. But aristocracy isn't synonymous with dictatorship.
just the antitheses of Democracy...
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Old 23rd September 2019, 08:06 AM   #165
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Originally Posted by erlando View Post
Isn't he or members of his administration currently ignoring several subpoenas from multiple committees?
Those don't count because... reasons.
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Old 23rd September 2019, 08:13 AM   #166
The Great Zaganza
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Not compared with. Equated with. The problem is that you never actually do the comparison. If you did, you'd understand how much of a clown you look, pushing the equation all the time.
I do the comparisons all the time. I make abundantly clear in which sense Trump is like Mussolini.

It's a strawman to claim that comparing Trump to a dictator is equating him to one: as with Obstruction, Trump doesn't get to be as bad as he wants, because people around him refuse to follow his orders.
Because Trump doesn't have the henchmen to kill his opponents, he isn't as bad as actual dictators; but he is darn similar.
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Old 23rd September 2019, 08:57 AM   #167
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Originally Posted by erlando View Post
Isn't he or members of his administration currently ignoring several subpoenas from multiple committees?
That's pretty common for presidents as well. Executive privilege means not all subpoenas need to be answered. Courts commonly adjudicate these disputes if neither side gives in. Let me know if Trump ever ignores a court ruling against him on a subpoena.
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Old 23rd September 2019, 09:25 AM   #168
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Let me know if Trump ever ignores a court ruling against him on a subpoena.
Why? When that happens you'll just have an excuse why it does matter or "HEY LOOK A SQUIRREL!"

It's 3 years now of both the hardcore Republicans and hardcore Democrats playing "Trump won't do that / Trump can't do that" right up until the point he does and then resetting back to "Okay but he won't / can't do the next thing..."

He's ordered his underlings to ignore subpoenas, but sure that doesn't count.
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Last edited by JoeMorgue; 23rd September 2019 at 09:27 AM.
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Old 23rd September 2019, 09:29 AM   #169
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Why?
Because that's an actual sign of him avoiding any accountability. Otherwise it's just the usual political squabbling that basically all administrations have, particularly with Congress held by the opposing party.

Quote:
When that happens you'll just have an excuse why it does matter or "HEY LOOK A SQUIRREL!"
Yet more unfalsifiable claims.

Quote:
It's 3 years now of both the hardcore Republicans and hardcore Democrats playing "Trump won't do that / Trump can't do that" right up until the point he does and then resetting back to "Okay but he won't / can't do the next thing..."
The only think I recall saying Trump couldn't do but he did was win the election.
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Old 30th September 2019, 12:19 PM   #170
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NVM
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Old 30th September 2019, 12:41 PM   #171
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
It's not whatbaoutism. Whataboutism is an attempt to distract from a charge by leveling a charge at a different target. The point of the DOJ thing was that it's a nonsense charge to begin with. Doing what every other president does is no indication of dictatorial tendencies. That isn't whataboutism.

And the difference between an aristocracy (which Britain has, for example) and a dictatorship is not a mere technicality. I've refuted your argument, you don't have a counter-argument, and so you try to dismiss me without actually addressing what I said.
The way you ignore the incredible rhetoric coming from Trump every day is remarkable.
it is totally alien to the classic American Political tradition..but then I am beginning to suspect that the Trump supporters here would be fine with dumping the Amereican Political tradition, and replacing it with a one party authoritarian state.
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Old 30th September 2019, 12:57 PM   #172
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
The way you ignore the incredible rhetoric coming from Trump every day is remarkable.
it is totally alien to the classic American Political tradition..but then I am beginning to suspect that the Trump supporters here would be fine with dumping the Amereican Political tradition, and replacing it with a one party authoritarian state.
So many claims about Trump doing something unprecedented come from people who don't actually know much history. I'm reminded of this:
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I AGREE

Trump has certainly violated a lot of post-WW2 norms. But history is deeper than that. Presidents have said some pretty terrible things. Hell, presidents have done some pretty terrible things. And I'm far more concerned about what Trump actually does than what he actually says. If the fact that he says bad things is the worst you can come up with about a president, I'm OK with that. It's not ideal, sure, but I'm never going to get my ideal president.
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Old 30th September 2019, 01:16 PM   #173
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Stop it with "It's not a problem until it's a unique, unprecedented problem" nonsense.
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Old 30th September 2019, 01:21 PM   #174
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Stop it with "It's not a problem until it's a unique, unprecedented problem" nonsense.
Do you agree that it's not a unique, unprecedented problem?

That the level of outrage about this mundane and commonplace problem is the unprecedented thing?
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Old 30th September 2019, 01:21 PM   #175
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
So many claims about Trump doing something unprecedented come from people who don't actually know much history. I'm reminded of this:
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I AGREE

Trump has certainly violated a lot of post-WW2 norms. But history is deeper than that. Presidents have said some pretty terrible things. Hell, presidents have done some pretty terrible things. And I'm far more concerned about what Trump actually does than what he actually says. If the fact that he says bad things is the worst you can come up with about a president, I'm OK with that. It's not ideal, sure, but I'm never going to get my ideal president.
Well, in several other threads, ... never mind.
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Old 30th September 2019, 01:24 PM   #176
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
So many claims about Trump doing something unprecedented come from people who don't actually know much history. I'm reminded of this:
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I AGREE

Trump has certainly violated a lot of post-WW2 norms. But history is deeper than that. Presidents have said some pretty terrible things. Hell, presidents have done some pretty terrible things. And I'm far more concerned about what Trump actually does than what he actually says. If the fact that he says bad things is the worst you can come up with about a president, I'm OK with that. It's not ideal, sure, but I'm never going to get my ideal president.

Oh, sure, because if we have a norm violated for the first time in 200 years we should all relax and pretend like it's just an everyday occurrence.

Sure, Zig, sure.

"What's that? We have a Civil War going on? Meh....Been there, done that. Wake me up if they start using nukes."

LOL!
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Old 30th September 2019, 01:30 PM   #177
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Do you agree that it's not a unique, unprecedented problem?

That the level of outrage about this mundane and commonplace problem is the unprecedented thing?

No. And even if I did agree, that's not a reason to pretend it's not a problem, like our resident Trumpetts do.

I submitted a challenge in another thread. I claim it is unprecedented to see the way Republicans are currently lying in the face of facts about Birtherism, Climate Change, Clinton Murder Spree, and Millions of Illegals Voting.

No one took me up on the challenge.

Show me what you got.
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Old 30th September 2019, 01:51 PM   #178
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Do you agree that it's not a unique, unprecedented problem?

That the level of outrage about this mundane and commonplace problem is the unprecedented thing?

Do you agree that it's a unique and unprecedented problem?

And that part of what makes it unique and unprecedented is that Trump has a confederacy of sycophants whose only mission is to pretend that, despite all evidence to the contrary, everything is normal?
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Old 30th September 2019, 02:08 PM   #179
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
So many claims about Trump doing something unprecedented come from people who don't actually know much history. I'm reminded of this:
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I AGREE

Trump has certainly violated a lot of post-WW2 norms. But history is deeper than that. Presidents have said some pretty terrible things. Hell, presidents have done some pretty terrible things. And I'm far more concerned about what Trump actually does than what he actually says. If the fact that he says bad things is the worst you can come up with about a president, I'm OK with that. It's not ideal, sure, but I'm never going to get my ideal president.
Could you at least raise the bar? A narcissistic, pathological liar who tweets childish insults at anyone who dares criticize him, who mocks a disabled reporter, insults a war hero, thinks there's "good people" among white supremacists, separates children from their parents for months on end, who believes murdering dictators over his own intel agencies, obstructs justice, and tries to extort another country into giving his dirt on his political rival is more than far from "ideal". Your bar is so low not even Shemika Campbell could limbo under it.


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Old 30th September 2019, 02:12 PM   #180
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
Do you agree that it's a unique and unprecedented problem?
Of course not.

My thesis since before the election has been that while Donald Trump is clearly unique in many ways, the bulk of the problems he's been specially accused of are actually run of the mill problems that every politician brings to the table, and that the nation typically weathers with a fraction of the freakout you're indulging in with Trump.

For example:
Quote:
And that part of what makes it unique and unprecedented is that Trump has a confederacy of sycophants whose only mission is to pretend that, despite all evidence to the contrary, everything is normal?
This business of surrounding oneself with an entourage of sycophants seems entirely typical of politicians.
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Old 30th September 2019, 02:29 PM   #181
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Of course not.

My thesis since before the election has been that while Donald Trump is clearly unique in many ways, the bulk of the problems he's been specially accused of are actually run of the mill problems that every politician brings to the table, and that the nation typically weathers with a fraction of the freakout you're indulging in with Trump.
OK then: Support your "thesis". To begin, please provide an example of another president attempting to coerce another nation to pursue a witch hunt of a political opponent.

I don't think you can support your "thesis". It's merely a front you hide behind to deflect from Trump's unique corruption, as exemplified in the preceding paragraph.

I eagerly await your attempt.


Quote:
This business of surrounding oneself with an entourage of sycophants seems entirely typical of politicians.

The brazenness of the lies they tell, along with their complete inability to honestly engage in debate without deflections and whataboutisms is unique. Absolutely no honesty, honor, or integrity. Lie after lie after lie after lie......


"Trump before America"--Do you really think that applies equally well to other American politicians in the past?? Come on, get real, prestige.
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Old 30th September 2019, 03:12 PM   #182
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Of course not.

My thesis since before the election has been that while Donald Trump is clearly unique in many ways, the bulk of the problems he's been specially accused of are actually run of the mill problems that every politician brings to the table, and that the nation typically weathers with a fraction of the freakout you're indulging in with Trump.

For example:

This business of surrounding oneself with an entourage of sycophants seems entirely typical of politicians.

Oh yeah, while I'm asking you to support your "thesis" go ahead and find me another president who threatened civil war if he gets impeached.

https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/...771264?lang=en

Thanks!
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Old 30th September 2019, 03:48 PM   #183
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Nice to see some Sunday morning interviewers calling BS to the guest's faces. I knew Jim Jordan was a lying sleazeball the first time I saw him.
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Old 30th September 2019, 04:51 PM   #184
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Trump has certainly violated a lot of post-WW2 norms. But history is deeper than that. Presidents have said some pretty terrible things. Hell, presidents have done some pretty terrible things. And I'm far more concerned about what Trump actually does than what he actually says. If the fact that he says bad things is the worst you can come up with about a president, I'm OK with that. It's not ideal, sure, but I'm never going to get my ideal president.
Would Trump being a demonstrable thin-skinned narcissist be cause for alarm?

It's some of what he says, but a lot of it he does and gives legitimacy to the more extreme factions of his base.
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Old 30th September 2019, 05:35 PM   #185
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Could you at least raise the bar? A narcissistic, pathological liar who tweets childish insults at anyone who dares criticize him, who mocks a disabled reporter, insults a war hero,
Sure, I'd like better than that. But there are also things worse than that which I'm not willing to accept in order to get rid of that.

Quote:
thinks there's "good people" among white supremacists,
You know that this is based on a lie about what he said, right?

Quote:
separates children from their parents for months on end,
Yeah, I wanted Obama gone too. On that we agree.

Quote:
who believes murdering dictators over his own intel agencies,
What he says about dictators is often too soft. But the most powerful and threatening dictatorship in the world is China, and he's doing more to counter China's influence than any president in decades. As for Russia, he's hitting them where it hurts: oil prices.

Quote:
obstructs justice, and tries to extort another country into giving his dirt on his political rival
There's no "there" there.
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Old 30th September 2019, 06:11 PM   #186
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Sure, I'd like better than that. But there are also things worse than that which I'm not willing to accept in order to get rid of that.



You know that this is based on a lie about what he said, right?



Yeah, I wanted Obama gone too. On that we agree.



What he says about dictators is often too soft. But the most powerful and threatening dictatorship in the world is China, and he's doing more to counter China's influence than any president in decades. As for Russia, he's hitting them where it hurts: oil prices.



There's no "there" there.
Wrong, wrong, wrong, and wrong.
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Old 30th September 2019, 06:23 PM   #187
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
Wrong, wrong, wrong, and wrong.
That’s not a productive contribution to the discussion. If you think I’m wrong, then you should say why.
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Old 30th September 2019, 06:40 PM   #188
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
That’s not a productive contribution to the discussion. If you think I’m wrong, then you should say why.
I already did, bro. And I noticed you kept your mouth shut in response.

Wise move, chief.
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Old 30th September 2019, 07:05 PM   #189
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Your bar is so low not even Shemika Campbell could limbo under it.


http://www.internationalskeptics.com...26eae7fa44.png
At least your post has a picture of a car in it.

I'm interested in crumple zones, the physics of stopping large objects etc., but the last page has just been whether Trump has the chops to become a dictator.

I tend to think that he doesn't. But it depends on how strong the cultural and constitutional safeguards against it are.

Maybe Trump is the crumple zone of U.S. democracy. In other words I hope the wreck will be ugly and expensive but not fatal.
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Old 30th September 2019, 07:19 PM   #190
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Of course not.

My thesis since before the election has been that while Donald Trump is clearly unique in many ways, the bulk of the problems he's been specially accused of are actually run of the mill problems that every politician brings to the table, and that the nation typically weathers with a fraction of the freakout you're indulging in with Trump.

For example:

This business of surrounding oneself with an entourage of sycophants seems entirely typical of politicians.
Never mind sycophants. There are countless superior examples:

- Never has a POTUS urged supporters to commit violence against US citizens behaving lawfully.
- Based on norms of the time, there has never been a POTUS who spews racism/bigotry like Trump. (The qualifier beginning the preceding sentence may not be necessary.)
- "Trump is the king of all liars" falls short. Never has a POTUS waged a broad-based war on reality, concerning matters big and small.
- Never has there been a POTUS who behaves like a rank infant on a daily basis.
- Never has there been a POTUS enamored with brutal dictators.
- Never (to our knowledge) has a POTUS conspired with a hostile foreign power to meddle in US elections.
- Never has a POTUS brazenly flaunted emoluments.
- Never has a POTUS branded the media as "enemy of the people"
- Never has a POTUS declared that political opponents be imprisoned or shot
- Never has a POTUS catered to nazis

I'm sure there are substantive examples I've overlooked. He embodies so many odious characteristics that it's easy to lose track.

To see this freak show as business as usual defies credulity in the extreme.
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Old 30th September 2019, 07:20 PM   #191
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
That’s not a productive contribution to the discussion. If you think I’m wrong, then you should say why.
I've already given your post all the time and energy it warrants.
See post #190.
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Old 30th September 2019, 07:28 PM   #192
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
I already did, bro. And I noticed you kept your mouth shut in response.

Wise move, chief.
You have given no response to my above post.
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Old 30th September 2019, 08:41 PM   #193
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An abuse of power is an abuse of power.
The idea that it would be "unfair" to impeach one President for it but not another is incredibly lame.
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Old 30th September 2019, 08:42 PM   #194
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
You have given no response to my above post.

You really make this too easy for me, sweetheart.

Post 176, son.
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Old 30th September 2019, 08:50 PM   #195
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I think the Trumpanzee strategy here is attrition. They just keep asking the same questions over and over, ignoring answers and pretending that they're "winning" the discussion.
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Old 30th September 2019, 09:06 PM   #196
The Great Zaganza
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
I think the Trumpanzee strategy here is attrition. They just keep asking the same questions over and over, ignoring answers and pretending that they're "winning" the discussion.
they don't have to "win" it - they just have to keep controversy going until there is something new in the news-cycle.
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Old 30th September 2019, 10:52 PM   #197
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Trump is a broken clock.

It's not a sign of objectivism to the point out that he happens to be right twice a day.
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Old 30th September 2019, 11:06 PM   #198
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stacyhs
Could you at least raise the bar? A narcissistic, pathological liar who tweets childish insults at anyone who dares criticize him, who mocks a disabled reporter, insults a war hero,
Sure, I'd like better than that. But there are also things worse than that which I'm not willing to accept in order to get rid of that.
Sure. A murderer would be worse. But I don't remember one ever running for president. I'm trying to think of a past president in our lifetime who has behaved in such a sheer egregious manner as Trump. Can't think of one. Can you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stacyhs
thinks there's "good people" among white supremacists,
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
You know that this is based on a lie about what he said, right?
I'll concede that it was misconstrued and taken out of context. But there is no denying he called El Salvador, Haiti, and some other African countries "**** hole countries. But he liked the idea of more people "like Norwegians" immigrating here, not the "rapists and drug dealers Mexico is sending".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stacyhs
separates children from their parents for months on end,
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Yeah, I wanted Obama gone too. On that we agree.
You do know that is a lie, don't you? Trump's claim that Obama separated children from their parents is false. According to NPR:
Quote:
Trump's false claim that child separations were carried out by the Obama administration has been frequently refuted.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stacyhs
who believes murdering dictators over his own intel agencies,
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
What he says about dictators is often too soft. But the most powerful and threatening dictatorship in the world is China, and he's doing more to counter China's influence than any president in decades. As for Russia, he's hitting them where it hurts: oil prices.
Believing Putin over his own intel agencies is 'too soft'? Denying Russia was interfering in our elections and that it was a 'hoax' is 'too soft'? That's your defense?
All he's doing is waging a tariff war with China that is devastating our farmers and causing prices to rise creating a nightmare for our manufacturers.

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
There's no "there" there.
There's a hell of a lot of "there" there.

Last edited by Stacyhs; 30th September 2019 at 11:08 PM.
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Old 1st October 2019, 03:29 AM   #199
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post

I'll concede that it was misconstrued and taken out of context. .
Don't. Trump at the time clearified that he was not talking about the people fighting but instead was talking about the ones from the night before.

The ones marching with torches chanting about Jews.

The ones that could not have had any historian statue fans as primary motivating there.

The Nazis.
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Old 1st October 2019, 06:24 AM   #200
alfaniner
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Sure. A murderer would be worse. But I don't remember one ever running for president. I'm trying to think of a past president in our lifetime who has behaved in such a sheer egregious manner as Trump. Can't think of one. Can you?

I'll concede that it was misconstrued and taken out of context. But there is no denying he called El Salvador, Haiti, and some other African countries "**** hole countries. But he liked the idea of more people "like Norwegians" immigrating here, not the "rapists and drug dealers Mexico is sending".

You do know that is a lie, don't you? Trump's claim that Obama separated children from their parents is false. According to NPR:

Believing Putin over his own intel agencies is 'too soft'? Denying Russia was interfering in our elections and that it was a 'hoax' is 'too soft'? That's your defense?
All he's doing is waging a tariff war with China that is devastating our farmers and causing prices to rise creating a nightmare for our manufacturers.

There's a hell of a lot of "there" there.
I appreciate your taking the time that I was not willing to spend to do these rebuttals .

I just came across a few pertinent Tweets:
Quote:
Garry Kasparov
@Kasparov63
They’ll attack the truth-tellers, accuse them of anything at all, because playing defense takes energy. They’ll use whataboutism to distract from their crimes. Keep following the money and repeating the truth.

This is part of the “flood not dam” model. They want doubt. They can make up a dozen new lies and new distractions every day while there’s only one truth. Stop chasing them and keep repeating the facts.

As you watch Trump’s defenders lie, deflect, and distract today and in the coming weeks, remember that they don’t care about being caught in obvious lies. Calling ******** still means you’re talking about the ********, not the facts.
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