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Tags donald trump , Hunter Biden , joe biden , rudy giuliani , Trump controversies , US-Ukraine relations

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Old 20th September 2019, 10:28 AM   #1
varwoche
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Trump whistleblower brewing scandal

I think this merits a thread. The administration is taking what are apparently unprecedented steps to withhold the whistleblower report from congress. It's been reported it involves Trump and the Ukraine.

Meanwhile, Guiliani spews gibberish out both sides of his mouth about his efforts, on Trump's behalf, to get Ukraine to investigate Biden.

Rudy Giuliani denies asking Ukraine to investigate Biden -- before admitting it
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Old 20th September 2019, 10:42 AM   #2
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I honestly don't see the big deal. The president only -- allegedly -- offered favorable treatment to a foreign government in exchange for taking out a political opponent.

Trump correctly notes the whistleblower is highly partisan despite not knowing the person's identity (and if he does know their identity, then a "crime" has been committed, but it's actually REAL whistleblowing and should be pardoned).
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Old 20th September 2019, 11:05 AM   #3
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What is being reported now is that the call MAY have been Trump and the Ukraine president regarding Ukraine investigating Biden for Trump. Giuliani admits he asked Ukraine to investigate Biden. Giuliani would not have done that without Trump's direction to do so.

Didn't the GOP have a fit when they accused the DNC of hiring a foreign national (Steele) to investigate a presidential candidate (Trump)?

Last edited by Stacyhs; 20th September 2019 at 11:07 AM.
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Old 20th September 2019, 11:17 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
What is being reported now is that the call MAY have been Trump and the Ukraine president regarding Ukraine investigating Biden for Trump. Giuliani admits he asked Ukraine to investigate Biden. Giuliani would not have done that without Trump's direction to do so.
Not only asking Ukraine to investigate, but possibly tying it to military aid. (i.e. if you don't investigate Biden we won't help protect you against Russia).

Which means Trump may be using taxpayer money as a way to leverage another country to dig up dirt on a political rival.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-polit...n-military-aid
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Old 20th September 2019, 11:23 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Not only asking Ukraine to investigate, but possibly tying it to military aid. (i.e. if you don't investigate Biden we won't help protect you against Russia).

Which means Trump may be using taxpayer money as a way to leverage another country to dig up dirt on a political rival.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-polit...n-military-aid
Or incentive to a country to investigate alleged corruption. Justice cannot stop simply because it just so happens to involve someone you know.

It could be difficult to prove it was the former.
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Old 20th September 2019, 11:23 AM   #6
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So far, the best bit was Rudy Giuliani's epic meltdown on CNN. I am reminded of the idea of a "Golden Shovel Lawyer", an expensive attorney who shows up in court in a fancy suit and tie and proceeds to bury their client.
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Old 20th September 2019, 11:36 AM   #7
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I've stacked up on popcorn already. "The Resistance" should check if they have enough handkerchiefs for all those liberal tears they will be crying. Likely it will be kept on low profile for the best part of another year, though, especially if creepy and sleepy uncle Joe really is chosen to run against Orange Man (who is bad).
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Old 20th September 2019, 11:42 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Or incentive to a country to investigate alleged corruption. Justice cannot stop simply because it just so happens to involve someone you know.

It could be difficult to prove it was the former.
Except of course that no formal request for an investigation has been made by the U.S. (suggesting that this is more of a smear tactic than a legitimate investigation into corruption).

https://www.thedailybeast.com/ukrain...ial-us-request

In addition you also have proportionality... Even if there is a legitimate reason to investigate Biden, making major foreign policy changes that can affect the geopolitical situation just because "Gosh, person X didn't pay their taxes" seems excessive (considering the Trump administration continues to support Saudi Arabia after they had a reporter actually killed.)

And finally... lets say there was a reason to investigate Biden. Lets say the crimes were serious enough to suspend aid if they were uncooperative.... The Trump administration may have still broken the law by not passing on a legitimate report to congress in a timely manner, as they were required to do.

(This is of course assumes the whistleblower complaint was about Trump/The Ukraine/Biden, and not some unrelated reason.)
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Old 20th September 2019, 11:48 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Except of course that no formal request for an investigation has been made by the U.S. (suggesting that this is more of a smear tactic than a legitimate investigation into corruption).

https://www.thedailybeast.com/ukrain...ial-us-request

In addition you also have proportionality... Even if there is a legitimate reason to investigate Biden, making major foreign policy changes that can affect the geopolitical situation just because "Gosh, person X didn't pay their taxes" seems excessive (considering the Trump administration continues to support Saudi Arabia after they had a reporter actually killed.)

And finally... lets say there was a reason to investigate Biden. Lets say the crimes were serious enough to suspend aid if they were uncooperative.... The Trump administration may have still broken the law by not passing on a legitimate report to congress in a timely manner, as they were required to do.

(This is of course assumes the whistleblower complaint was about Trump/The Ukraine/Biden, and not some unrelated reason.)

I agree with most everything you say here, but let us not forget that last night Rudy said, on live TV no less, that even if the President did it, it's OK (paraphrase).
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Old 20th September 2019, 11:49 AM   #10
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Except of course that no formal request for an investigation has been made by the U.S. (suggesting that this is more of a smear tactic than a legitimate investigation into corruption).

https://www.thedailybeast.com/ukrain...ial-us-request

In addition you also have proportionality... Even if there is a legitimate reason to investigate Biden, making major foreign policy changes that can affect the geopolitical situation just because "Gosh, person X didn't pay their taxes" seems excessive (considering the Trump administration continues to support Saudi Arabia after they had a reporter actually killed.)

And finally... lets say there was a reason to investigate Biden. Lets say the crimes were serious enough to suspend aid if they were uncooperative.... The Trump administration may have still broken the law by not passing on a legitimate report to congress in a timely manner, as they were required to do.

(This is of course assumes the whistleblower complaint was about Trump/The Ukraine/Biden, and not some unrelated reason.)
I didn't comment on the whistleblower because the post I was responding to did not mention the whistleblower.
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Old 20th September 2019, 11:54 AM   #11
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And IMHO Trump will get away with it.
If he is relected, I see no peaceful way of restoring democracy and rule of law.
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Old 20th September 2019, 12:40 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
I found it amazing that CNN considered it so valuable to show that they didn't have a commercial break for almost 30 minutes. It was almost a refreshing break from all the drug and insurance ads.
Originally Posted by chrispy View Post
Huh. Y'know, I was so entranced that I didn't even notice that!! Good spot!
That's part of what made it so exhausting to watch. Cuomo never had a chance to reset and the audience to catch its breath. Or to get Guiliani to shut up for more than a second or two.
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Old 20th September 2019, 02:03 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
That's part of what made it so exhausting to watch. Cuomo never had a chance to reset and the audience to catch its breath. Or to get Guiliani to shut up for more than a second or two.
I don't have CNN where I live, so I watched on youtube afterward and just assumed they had cut out the commercials!!
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Old 20th September 2019, 03:06 PM   #14
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Words from Trump's mouth lend credence to the reporting that (1) it was Ukraine and (2) it involved pressuring them to investigate Biden.
Quote:
Asked if he mentioned former vice president and Democratic presidential candidate Joe Biden in the conversation, Trump said, "Somebody ought to look into Joe Biden's statement because it's disgraceful."
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Old 20th September 2019, 03:21 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
And IMHO Trump will get away with it.
If he is relected, I see no peaceful way of restoring democracy and rule of law.
That's been the pattern so far. I also have little doubt that the GOP will continue to back Trump no matter how outrageous or illegal Trump's actions are. I suspect they will fight releasing this info to the Intelligence Committee through every means they can muster just like they have with Trump's taxes. If there is nothing illegal in that phone call, as Trump has claimed, then why are they refusing to release it? I have the same question about his tax returns. He wouldn't fight it this hard if he isn't hiding something.
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Old 20th September 2019, 03:24 PM   #16
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It's the thing that would end Trump's Presidency in any sane world. It will be forgotten by the end of next week when Trump does the next thing that will end his Presidency in any sane world.

The Republicans will make excuses, the Democrats will make angry screeching noises at the wall.
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Old 20th September 2019, 03:25 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
And IMHO Trump will get away with it.
If he is relected, I see no peaceful way of restoring democracy and rule of law.

Yeah, I agree our some tweaks might be in order, but democracy and rule of law don't need "restoring", they aren't gone.
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Old 20th September 2019, 03:46 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Words from Trump's mouth lend credence to the reporting that (1) it was Ukraine and (2) it involved pressuring them to investigate Biden.
Add Rudy Giuliani's best impression of Colonel Nathan R.Jessep in his interview where he says he first denied he asked the Ukraine to investigate Biden and moments later said he did and was proud of it. Add the fact that aid to the Ukraine was mysteriously held up and then was released to them.

Trump is the most corrupt President in US history and should be lined up against a wall and shot for Treason. After his impeachment and a fair trial. Unfortunately the Republicans in Congress are just as corrupt. So goodbye democracy. 226 years was a good run I guess.
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Old 20th September 2019, 03:49 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
and should be lined up against a wall and shot
No, stop that.
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Old 20th September 2019, 04:18 PM   #20
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Trump did have a conversation, but it was a "beautiful conversation". So you can all back off now.
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Old 20th September 2019, 04:32 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
No, stop that.
Why? This President deserves it. He's destroying the republic that so many gave their last full measure of devotion to preserve.
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Old 20th September 2019, 04:36 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Trump is the most corrupt President in US history and should be lined up against a wall and shot for Treason.
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Why? This President deserves it. He's destroying the republic that so many gave their last full measure of devotion to preserve.
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Old 20th September 2019, 04:55 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Yeah, I agree our some tweaks might be in order, but democracy and rule of law don't need "restoring", they aren't gone.
If Trump is reelected, they will be. I am convinced of that.
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Old 20th September 2019, 04:57 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Add Rudy Giuliani's best impression of Colonel Nathan R.Jessep in his interview where he says he first denied he asked the Ukraine to investigate Biden and moments later said he did and was proud of it. Add the fact that aid to the Ukraine was mysteriously held up and then was released to them.

Trump is the most corrupt President in US history and should be lined up against a wall and shot for Treason. After his impeachment and a fair trial. Unfortunately the Republicans in Congress are just as corrupt. So goodbye democracy. 226 years was a good run I guess.

So let's just rollover and play dead for them......nice.

And the kind of despair you seem to be indulging in benefits nobody but Trump.

I am so sick and tired of this eternal angst. I expect it from teenagers, but when grown people continue to indulge in it I get worried.
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Last edited by dudalb; 20th September 2019 at 05:01 PM.
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Old 20th September 2019, 05:10 PM   #25
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You guys should look up rule of law functionalism.

Quote:
The functional interpretation of the term "rule of law", consistent with the traditional English meaning, contrasts the "rule of law" with the "rule of man".[36] According to the functional view, a society in which government officers have a great deal of discretion has a low degree of "rule of law", whereas a society in which government officers have little discretion has a high degree of "rule of law".[36] Upholding the rule of law can sometimes require the punishment of those who commit offenses that are justifiable under natural law but not statutory law.[37] The rule of law is thus somewhat at odds with flexibility, even when flexibility may be preferable.[36]
Rule of law is not very compatible with a system possessing as much discretion as the US. There is just a near uncountable veto points where actors can use discretion to sink something.
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Old 20th September 2019, 05:20 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
So let's just rollover and play dead for them......nice.

And the kind of despair you seem to be indulging in benefits nobody but Trump.

I am so sick and tired of this eternal angst. I expect it from teenagers, but when grown people continue to indulge in it I get worried.
I've read similar posts from you. But with Republicans and the courts blocking every inquiry, gerrymandering, fixing elections and being unwilling to follow the rule of law that is the end of the republic.

This latest scandal was determined to be an "urgent threat" by Trump's own appointed Inspector General. The whistleblower law is very clear that this information is to be forwarded to Congress. What business does the acting director of National Intelligence has in involving the AG and not following the law.?

Laws mean nothing if they can be circumvented this way. Trump and his cabal are criminals and the Republican party is taking a jackhammer to the foundation that has made this nation prosper for two centuries. Perhaps we can rise from the ashes of this arson caused blaze. But I'm afraid it's too late.
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Last edited by acbytesla; 20th September 2019 at 05:21 PM.
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Old 20th September 2019, 05:23 PM   #27
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Someone was talking about roadblocks earlier.

I heard a good one.the law in question applies to an intelligence activity. The president in his capacity as ambassador and negotiator is not engaged in an intelligence activity. The law doesn't apply.
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Old 20th September 2019, 05:30 PM   #28
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Fair warning to all. Don't go down the Bob rabbit hole.
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Old 20th September 2019, 05:40 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Fair warning to all. Don't go down the Bob rabbit hole.
You are literally the person who brought up Republican courts blocking things. I have an example of that in a legal argument I have already seen trialed ballooned. It supports your point.
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Old 20th September 2019, 05:43 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
You are literally the person who brought up Republican courts blocking things. I have an example of that in a legal argument I have already seen trialed ballooned. It supports your point.
Who are you? Pennywise?
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Old 20th September 2019, 05:45 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Who are you? Pennywise?
I don't understand
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Old 20th September 2019, 05:51 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I don't understand
Read the book or see the movie.
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Old 20th September 2019, 06:13 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Read the book or see the movie.
I don't like punk rock.
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Old 20th September 2019, 06:24 PM   #34
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Let's see, Trump is threatening Ukraine because previously Biden threatened Ukraine. I've got an idea! Why don't they both just withdraw from the 2020 election? They're too old anyhow!
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Old 20th September 2019, 06:32 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I've read similar posts from you. But with Republicans and the courts blocking every inquiry, gerrymandering, fixing elections and being unwilling to follow the rule of law that is the end of the republic.

This latest scandal was determined to be an "urgent threat" by Trump's own appointed Inspector General. The whistleblower law is very clear that this information is to be forwarded to Congress. What business does the acting director of National Intelligence has in involving the AG and not following the law.?

Laws mean nothing if they can be circumvented this way. Trump and his cabal are criminals and the Republican party is taking a jackhammer to the foundation that has made this nation prosper for two centuries. Perhaps we can rise from the ashes of this arson caused blaze. But I'm afraid it's too late.
...from this?

Look, I frankly agree that Dolt 45 & crew are skating pretty close to outright treason (and would likely skate right over that line, were we at at war according to congress, which we aren't), but in my view, this isn't much. And as much as you want to talk about "two centuries", I figure...maybe 55 years, not including a brief period after the Civil War. Want to save things? Well, there are plenty of groups working to preserve it, and there always have been. Some are a century or more old, some formed up on nov. 9th 2016 or later. Find a local one, get to work, and stop whining.

Or, you can watch other people work via the internet, contribute on your own, and stop whining.

But there's a common theme here, you may have noticed.
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Old 20th September 2019, 06:39 PM   #36
Stacyhs
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Let's see, Trump is threatening Ukraine because previously Biden threatened Ukraine. I've got an idea! Why don't they both just withdraw from the 2020 election? They're too old anyhow!
There's big difference between what Trump (allegedly) did and what Biden did. Trump was trying to get info on Biden to affect the election in his favor. Biden's call for firing of the Ukrainian top prosecutor was also the position of the wider US government and other international organizations. Apples and oranges.
https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...n-and-ukraine/
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Old 20th September 2019, 07:02 PM   #37
Minoosh
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Trump and his cabal are criminals and the Republican party is taking a jackhammer to the foundation that has made this nation prosper for two centuries. Perhaps we can rise from the ashes of this arson caused blaze. But I'm afraid it's too late.
I don't doubt that the Republicans would do a lot to cover for Trump. But I also think key players in the GOP would at least want to know what they're covering up. The potential downside of his shenanigans could come back to bite them. So I think some will want to know what their exposure is. Also, national security is one of the few issues where I see some daylight between Trump an GOP leadership. Anything involving promises he makes to other heads of state might get their attention.
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Old 20th September 2019, 07:11 PM   #38
Minoosh
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
You are literally the person who brought up Republican courts blocking things. I have an example of that in a legal argument I have already seen trialed ballooned. It supports your point.
If the point is that Trump and his cabal have seized the apparatus of democracy, some of us aren't all that happy to see it supported.
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Old 20th September 2019, 07:24 PM   #39
Skeptic Ginger
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
Trump did have a conversation, but it was a "beautiful conversation". So you can all back off now.
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Old 20th September 2019, 07:28 PM   #40
dudalb
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I've read similar posts from you. But with Republicans and the courts blocking every inquiry, gerrymandering, fixing elections and being unwilling to follow the rule of law that is the end of the republic.

This latest scandal was determined to be an "urgent threat" by Trump's own appointed Inspector General. The whistleblower law is very clear that this information is to be forwarded to Congress. What business does the acting director of National Intelligence has in involving the AG and not following the law.?

Laws mean nothing if they can be circumvented this way. Trump and his cabal are criminals and the Republican party is taking a jackhammer to the foundation that has made this nation prosper for two centuries. Perhaps we can rise from the ashes of this arson caused blaze. But I'm afraid it's too late.
So you are going to join me in thinking that armed resistence might be necessary if that happens?
Or we just roll over and play dead?
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