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Tags donald trump , Hunter Biden , joe biden , rudy giuliani , Trump controversies , US-Ukraine relations

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Old 23rd September 2019, 08:39 AM   #121
phiwum
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Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
Don't overlook the fact that 1,000 prosecutors across the US signed a letter stating that were Trump not the sitting POTUS they would prosecute him based on the strength of the Mueller report. I place rather more weight on their opinion than I do the 'internet lawyering' going on round these here parts.

So yeah, in my view Trump needs to be criminally prosecuted as soon as his arse leaves the WH.
I agree that the prosecutors' letter is significant.

I also agree that internet lawyering isn't worth the bits its printed on (yeah, I know how mixed that metaphor is). I hope I've avoided any impression of that. I try to present citations to sources who know more than me.
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Old 23rd September 2019, 08:42 AM   #122
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Someone on Twitter wrote: "I'm old enough to remember when a conversation between Bill Clinton and Loretta Lynch on a tarmac made Republicans scream bloody murder."

How many officials listened to the phone call? And only one reported it? If the President told the AG to do something illegal, would Barr report it? Would the Chief of Staff report corruption? Of course not. What other **** has occurred outside the microphones of the Deep State?
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Old 23rd September 2019, 08:46 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
If they do not support you they are stupid, if they support you they are not stupid?
Spin it any way you like, but anyone who can't see that this self-obsessed grifter is a national security threat and is completely unfit for office anyway is pretty damned ignorant and/or stupid.
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Old 23rd September 2019, 08:55 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
Someone on Twitter wrote: "I'm old enough to remember when a conversation between Bill Clinton and Loretta Lynch on a tarmac made Republicans scream bloody murder."

How many officials listened to the phone call? And only one reported it? If the President told the AG to do something illegal, would Barr report it? Would the Chief of Staff report corruption? Of course not. What other **** has occurred outside the microphones of the Deep State?
I know a lot of folks rather like your deeply sarcastic posts, but I kinda favor this kind of clear opinion.
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Old 23rd September 2019, 09:07 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
If impeaching Trump hands him a second term there's a solid chance we won't be a in functioning democracy by the the time Marvel Phase 4 is completed and it won't matter. That reality is more important then the narrative.

A second term means at least, bare minimum, one more conservative Trump yes man on the Supreme Court. That happens and it's over. There will be no possible recourse within the system.
It appears that he's been caught actively trying to interfere with the upcoming election. If we just accept that on top of everything he's done, then it's hard for me to imagine how much more broken the system can get.
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Old 23rd September 2019, 09:13 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by dasmiller View Post
It appears that he's been caught actively trying to interfere with the upcoming election. If we just accept that on top of everything he's done, then it's hard for me to imagine how much more broken the system can get.
It appears that he's been caught using military foreign aid intended to fight off the Russian invasion of Ukraine as coercion to start a bogus investigation that he could spin into unspeakable evil in his masturbatory tweets and campaign rallies.
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Old 23rd September 2019, 09:20 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by dasmiller View Post
It appears that he's been caught actively trying to interfere with the upcoming election. If we just accept that on top of everything he's done, then it's hard for me to imagine how much more broken the system can get.
Again, as I've said many times, if you think all is lost that's fine, but act like it. Break out the guillotine and the Guy Fawkes mask and storm the Bastille.

"But we can't wait until the election" even if 100% true doesn't magically put the Democrats into a position where they can mount a reasonable opposition to Trump.

We don't have any viable means of political power right now. I can't make that not true because it's depressing.
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Old 23rd September 2019, 09:27 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Again, as I've said many times, if you think all is lost that's fine, but act like it. Break out the guillotine and the Guy Fawkes mask and storm the Bastille.

"But we can't wait until the election" even if 100% true doesn't magically put the Democrats into a position where they can mount a reasonable opposition to Trump.

We don't have any viable means of political power right now. I can't make that not true because it's depressing.
One would think that already having the threat of impeachment hanging over his head would put a damper on a normal president's Machiavellian tendencies, so yes, a very serious question about this very seriously abnormal president is, what else has he been doing or will he do before the election?
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Old 23rd September 2019, 09:27 AM   #129
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It looks as if this is a well documented crime committed by the President himself, and I heard there may even be a recording.

It's time to face the GOP senators and say "Either get on board, or you will have instigated the second American civil war." You simply cannot let Trump get away with this.
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Old 23rd September 2019, 09:31 AM   #130
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Okay real talk. Do anyone really think the threat of Civil War / Uprising / Whatever scares the GOP?

That's the other thing we've got to put on the table if we're just gonna keep coming back to the "Start forming the Wolverines" talk.

If it comes to that... which side do you really see winning?
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Old 23rd September 2019, 09:31 AM   #131
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If Trump is still paying people to keep quiet, I bet the price is a lot more than $130,000 now, so I'd guess that he's right that being president is costing him billions.
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Old 23rd September 2019, 09:34 AM   #132
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Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
If Trump is still paying people to keep quiet, I bet the price is a lot more than $130,000 now, so I'd guess that he's right that being president is costing him billions.
It's not on the table (and I mean that seriously, not snarkly or backhandedly) because the narrative on it would be just... awful but on a pure "Chances of success" level the best way to get Trump out of office would be to somehow feed him a story where it makes him look like the winner.
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Old 23rd September 2019, 09:41 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
"We can't wait" doesn't change the reality that nobody who wants to do anything about Trump is in a position to do anything about Trump.

To torture the metaphor a bit we're suggesting going to get a pair of snakebit resistant gloves before grabbing the snake.

You're pointing out, and I need to stress I don't think you are wrong per se, that the snake might bite more children while we go get the gloves. I'm pointing out that if we grab the snake before we are ready we risk getting bit ourselves, dying, and there's no one to get the snake before it bites all the children.
Trump is definitely a snake of some sort.
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Old 23rd September 2019, 09:44 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Fair warning to all. Don't go down the Bob rabbit hole.
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Who are you? Pennywise?
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Read the book or see the movie.
Did you mean "don't follow me down the Bob rabbit hole"?
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Old 23rd September 2019, 09:52 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
If impeaching Trump hands him a second term there's a solid chance we won't be a in functioning democracy by the the time Marvel Phase 4 is completed and it won't matter. That reality is more important then the narrative.

A second term means at least, bare minimum, one more conservative Trump yes man on the Supreme Court. That happens and it's over. There will be no possible recourse within the system.
I'm quoting this so I can reference it in the post apocalyptic future fiction.
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Old 23rd September 2019, 10:01 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Okay real talk. Do anyone really think the threat of Civil War / Uprising / Whatever scares the GOP?

That's the other thing we've got to put on the table if we're just gonna keep coming back to the "Start forming the Wolverines" talk.

If it comes to that... which side do you really see winning?
Does it really matter? Are you of the opinion that losing Democracy little by little is better than fighting for it and possibly losing?
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Old 23rd September 2019, 10:03 AM   #137
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Does it really matter? Are you of the opinion that losing Democracy little by little is better than fighting for it and possibly losing?
I don't like people writing Narrative of Noble Defeat because it's easier then winning.

I don't think we're at the "All is lost moment" yet, that's a key difference.
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Old 23rd September 2019, 10:05 AM   #138
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
It looks as if this is a well documented crime committed by the President himself, and I heard there may even be a recording.
Oh another one, surely something different will happen this time!
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Old 23rd September 2019, 10:05 AM   #139
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I don't like people writing Narrative of Noble Defeat because it's easier then winning.

I don't think we're at the "All is lost moment" yet, that's a key difference.
Well, if there are no consequences for the President flagrantly violating the law - specifically the law that is designed to help keep elections fair - all will be lost.
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Old 23rd September 2019, 10:08 AM   #140
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Well, if there are no consequences for the President flagrantly violating the law - specifically the law that is designed to help keep elections fair - all will be lost.
Okay. Then grab a gun and start the revolution then. I'm not the one stopping you.
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Old 23rd September 2019, 10:10 AM   #141
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Okay. Then grab a gun and start the revolution then. I'm not the one stopping you.
You wouldn't join in tho, so that sort of defeats the purpose.

What consequences do you think there should be for a president that flagrantly breaks election laws in order to get reelected?
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Old 23rd September 2019, 10:10 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Well, if there are no consequences for the President flagrantly violating the law - specifically the law that is designed to help keep elections fair - all will be lost.
Well his past felonies violating election law were a big nothing in so far and costing him anything. Republicans simply don't care and while they do nothing can be done.
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Old 23rd September 2019, 10:12 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Well his past felonies violating election law were a big nothing in so far and costing him anything. Republicans simply don't care and while they do nothing can be done.
Well, then you have already lost Democracy. You might as well kick off the civil war right now.
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Old 23rd September 2019, 10:12 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
You wouldn't join in tho, so that sort of defeats the purpose.

What consequences do you think there should be for a president that flagrantly breaks election laws in order to get reelected?
Why should it be so different from a president who flagrantly breaks election laws to be elected the first time?
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Old 23rd September 2019, 10:14 AM   #145
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
You wouldn't join in tho, so that sort of defeats the purpose.
What differences does that make? Is it a moral imperative or not?

Either talk practical real world and all the complexity that comes with that or some ideological pureness that must be done, damn the consequences, not both.

Quote:
What consequences do you think there should be for a president that flagrantly breaks election laws in order to get reelected?
"Should" happen and "will" happen are not the same thing. I'm not the bad guy for not joining you in pretending they are.
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Old 23rd September 2019, 10:17 AM   #146
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
What differences does that make? Is it a moral imperative or not?

Either talk practical real world and all the complexity that comes with that or some ideological pureness that must be done, damn the consequences, not both.
In the real world, everyone that's not already in the Trump cult should start asking themselves "where is the line" and "what am I willing to do once that's crossed in order to defend Democracy". You clearly aren't there yet, but I don't understand what else it would take for you.


Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
"Should" happen and "will" happen are not the same thing. I'm not the bad guy for not joining you in pretending they are.
I'm not saying you're a bad guy. I'm asking you what you think should be done about a president that breaks election laws. I'd say that's about as serious a threat to Democracy as there could be, and yet I see you here arguing that nothing should be done.
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Old 23rd September 2019, 10:27 AM   #147
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Chance of armed uprising against Trump, even if he cancels the 2020 election, is zero.
Only a Military Coup could stop a renegade President.
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Old 23rd September 2019, 10:31 AM   #148
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Okay real talk. Do anyone really think the threat of Civil War / Uprising / Whatever scares the GOP?

That's the other thing we've got to put on the table if we're just gonna keep coming back to the "Start forming the Wolverines" talk.

If it comes to that... which side do you really see winning?
And you can bet your ass that they'd use the opportunity to overturn every law they dislike.
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Old 23rd September 2019, 10:33 AM   #149
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Again, as I've said many times, if you think all is lost that's fine, but act like it. Break out the guillotine and the Guy Fawkes mask and storm the Bastille.

"But we can't wait until the election" even if 100% true doesn't magically put the Democrats into a position where they can mount a reasonable opposition to Trump.

We don't have any viable means of political power right now. I can't make that not true because it's depressing.
The effectiveness of impeachment is only relevant insofar as we're concerned about political effects. On the other hand, the question may be "what is the duty of Congress given this evidence?" If the evidence of inappropriate behavior is as significant as you and others think (including me), then Congress has a duty to impeach regardless of the political calculus.

It doesn't much matter that the Republican-led Senate will reject the evidence and exonerate the president. That is a moral failure for them. A failure to impeach is a moral lapse for the Democrats.

I'm not firm on this position. I can see that political considerations matter and an impeachment might help Trump's reelection. But I tend to think that such considerations should take a backseat to the oath of office.

Just as we would reject arguments from the right that Trump shouldn't be impeached because he's done good work on the economy and impeachment would produce negative effects (ignore, for the moment, any doubts and presume it's true), we should reject arguments that he shouldn't be impeached because doing so would improve chances of reelection. Either the oath matters or it really is just about political considerations on both sides of the aisle. The only difference is in the calculation of rewards, not the method of deliberation.
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Old 23rd September 2019, 10:35 AM   #150
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
I'd say that's about as serious a threat to Democracy as there could be, and yet I see you here arguing that nothing should be done.
Ah, but my dear, we are a republic, not a democracy. A lot of people have no idea what a republic is. It's whatever helps Republicans.
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Old 23rd September 2019, 10:36 AM   #151
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Chance of armed uprising against Trump, even if he cancels the 2020 election, is zero.
Only a Military Coup could stop a renegade President.
Not exactly, civilian law enforcement and the like could also stop him, the problem isn't a renegade president, it is the support for such a president. Trump is a symptom not the disease.

A renegade president that did not have the support of his cabinet for example would be easy to remove with the 25th amendment. How to stop a renegade political party is the real question.
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Old 23rd September 2019, 10:41 AM   #152
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Trump will always have a cabinet, even if they are have Trump as their last name.
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Old 23rd September 2019, 10:43 AM   #153
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
At this point, the content of the Whistle-blower Complaint is secondary: it is almost impossible for it to be worse than the cover-up.

the acting DNI has to be fired, Barr needs to get hauled before Congress to explain what business he had reviewing the process at all, and get censured.

And if Trump gave anyone any directions to suppress the transfer of the Complaint, this needs to be in the Top Five of his Articles of Impeachment.
This ^

Come on Congress. We know what the quid was (atrocious in and of itself), what was the quo?

Barr needs to be reminded his job is not to protect Trump.
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Old 23rd September 2019, 10:46 AM   #154
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I don't know how to tell y'all this, but this is another nothingburger.


Maybe something will turn up later.
It might be, but Biden will need to address it. That means the press will cover it. That means Cadet Bonespurs will get his jock-strap in a bunch. The press will cover that. If Biden didn't do anything he'll get a bump and Trump will look like he was guilty of aiding the Russian interference all along.

His base will shrink a little more and some of the Republicans in Congress will feel more heat.
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Old 23rd September 2019, 10:49 AM   #155
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
This ^

Come on Congress. We know what the quid was (atrocious in and of itself), what was the quo?

Barr needs to be reminded his job is not to protect Trump.
But to get him to show up they would have to send the sergeant at arms to force him to show up.
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Old 23rd September 2019, 10:51 AM   #156
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
In the real world, everyone that's not already in the Trump cult should start asking themselves "where is the line" and "what am I willing to do once that's crossed in order to defend Democracy". You clearly aren't there yet, but I don't understand what else it would take for you.

I'm not saying you're a bad guy. I'm asking you what you think should be done about a president that breaks election laws. I'd say that's about as serious a threat to Democracy as there could be, and yet I see you here arguing that nothing should be done.
You're pinning your hopes to an impeachment and/or indictment that has zero chance of succeeding or a revolution that has zero chance of succeeding after that.

I'm pinning mine on an election where we at least have a chance. Which is why I'm hostile to things which are going to reduce those chances.

I'm not gonna whip my "Idealism" willy out and compare it to yours or anyone else's. You're the one who has given up and resigned to writing a "Noble in Defeat" morality play.
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Old 23rd September 2019, 10:56 AM   #157
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
.... Would that not mean that Sanders and Warren also have to step out?
Because they also threatened Ukraine to cough up dirt on Trump?

Or why?
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Old 23rd September 2019, 10:56 AM   #158
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
As I said earlier today you could also marvel at its stability, given the deep divide that's existed since the beginning.
Yeah the honor system worked for a long while, by and large. It even dealt with Nixon. The thing is, I didn't realize it was an honor system. I was naive. I didn't realize that things could so easily be subverted. I thought rule of law and checks+balances would prevail.

Back then there were Republicans with honor and principle. There was Howard Baker, now spinning in his grave, and others. It never occurred to me that virtually an entire political party would subvert democracy.
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Old 23rd September 2019, 10:58 AM   #159
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
You're pinning your hopes to an impeachment and/or indictment that has zero chance of succeeding or a revolution that has zero chance of succeeding after that.

I'm pinning mine on an election where we at least have a chance. Which is why I'm hostile to things which are going to reduce those chances.

I'm not gonna whip my "Idealism" willy out and compare it to yours or anyone else's. You're the one who has given up and resigned to writing a "Noble in Defeat" morality play.
But you're not really answering my question. You simply heap on with antagonistic language that I haven't reciprocated. I find it staggering that you would argue that nothing should be done about a president that violate election laws and that we should instead try to vote this president out of office. This stance is so riddled with problem that I am unsure where to start.

You are essentially saying that you do not think Democracy is worth fighting for.

Here's something you can do that doesn't involve violent revolution. Go out onto the streets and position yourself in front of your local representation of the federal government - or indeed, travel to Washington DC - and protest. Shout. Scream. Storm the White House grounds.
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Old 23rd September 2019, 11:00 AM   #160
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
But you're not really answering my question. You simply heap on with antagonistic language that I haven't reciprocated. I find it staggering that you would argue that nothing should be done about a president that violate election laws and that we should instead try to vote this president out of office. This stance is so riddled with problem that I am unsure where to start.

You are essentially saying that you do not think Democracy is worth fighting for.
Nonsense. I'm just not falling for the "WE HAVE TO DO SOMETHING NOW, RIGHT NOW, NOW NOW NOW!" trap.

We get some political power back, then we go after Trump.

Your solution is to lose with style because it's the moral thing to do.
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